311 réponses à ce sujet

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...

How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...

Because the focus is shifted to emphasize the reaper threat, rather than synthetics in general.

[LogicGunn]

maaaze wrote...

EDI rebelled against Cerberus...and against the Alliance (luna mission)

The Catalyst is the Antagonist as he represents the reapers

The Catalyst has it´s reasons why he is doing what he is doing...he was programmed to find a solution to a given problem and viaribles.

Why he is doing what he is doing isn´t the focus.
Why Shaperd is reacting the way he does to whats happening ...is the focus of the narrative.

EDI rebelled against an organic group in favour of a different organic group. EDI's motive for all it's actions is preservation of life. Synth vs org was never the motive of EDI.

Traditionally the antagonist of any work is the person/group that REPRESENT what the protagonist is fighting: Harbringer and Sovreign are antagonists representing the destruction of evolved organic life, the Catalyst only appears in the last few minutes and thus isn't the antagonist of the trilogy since it's presence wasn't known.

[Atakuma]

Mass effect and focus should not be used in the same breath. There never really was a strong central theme in the trilogy, it's always been a bit of a hodgepodge.

[CronoDragoon]

KBronx17 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?

The notion of combining synthetics and organics was introduced in the last ten minutes of the game.

Yes, we get it, there are synthetics and organics in the game. But are they fighting because synthetics always rebel against their creators? No! It just so happens that some synthetics fight for the Reapers, some fight for civilization.

Your argument would have a lot more weight if you never fought with organics. Legion even called the geth that fight with sovereign the heretics.

In the last ten minutes of what game? ME1? It was the motivation for the villain you fight for most of the game. That makes it important.

Sovereign makes it clear he is against you because you are ORGANICS. That makes this theme explicitly important in ME1. 

Your last point is ME2 stuff, which as I said above muddles the issue in a very good way. I am mostly against this idea that in ME1 synthetics vs. organics was not a main theme.

[Nezzer]

I've always seen the conflict between organics and synthetics as a very secondary part of ME. To use it as the main purpose of the Reapers makes no sense IMHO. It'd be better if they'd left their motives unexplained than that.

[D24O]

Atakuma wrote...

Mass effect and focus should not be used in the same breath. There never really was a strong central theme in the trilogy, it's always been a bit of a hodgepodge.

Well the reaper threat was there through most of the trilogy, at least in the background, but yeah, you have a good point.

[KBronx17]

Atakuma wrote...

Mass effect and focus should not be used in the same breath. There never really was a strong central theme in the trilogy, it's always been a bit of a hodgepodge.

You've never fought the focus of the triology was Civilization vs. Reapers? Really?

Did you fight Sovereign, Saren (manipulated by a Reaper), the Collectors (enslaved by Reapers), Harbinger, anybody?

Heck, did you ever put the disc into the console? Or PC?

[CronoDragoon]

D24O wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...

Because the focus is shifted to emphasize the reaper threat, rather than synthetics in general.

The Reaper threat, represented by Sovereign in ME1, explicitly frame the conflict as organic vs. synthetic.

[D24O]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Reaper threat, represented by Sovereign in ME1, explicitly frame the conflict as organic vs. synthetic.

I don't see it that way. Especially with Soverign's contempt of the Geth, I saw it as Reapers v everyone, especially after playing 2, seeing EDI and Legion's character arcs, and playing through the Rannoch arc.

[KBronx17]

CronoDragoon wrote...

D24O wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...

Because the focus is shifted to emphasize the reaper threat, rather than synthetics in general.

The Reaper threat, represented by Sovereign in ME1, explicitly frame the conflict as organic vs. synthetic.

Maybe I'll have to go back and watch the conversation with Sovereign, but I don't recall him framing it as organic vs. synthetic. He might refer to Shepard and his allies as organics, but I do not remember him framing the conflict that way. I do remember him explicitly telling you over and over again that Reapers are infinitely better than organics, etc.

[MegaSovereign]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Mass effect and focus should not be used in the same breath. There never really was a strong central theme in the trilogy, it's always been a bit of a hodgepodge.

Indeed. Hence why trying to make an ending based around one theme really doesn't work.

-Victory at any cost (Destroy)

-Revenge (Destroy)

-Why destroy when you can harnass its potential? (Control)

-Sacrifice (Control)

-Is submission not preferable to extinction? (Synthesis)

-I won't sacrifice the soul of our species (Refuse)


Multiple themes are echoed in the endings, a long side organics vs synthetics.

[Doctoglethorpe]

The first hour of ME1 and the last 10 minutes of ME3. 

[CronoDragoon]

KBronx17 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

D24O wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...

Because the focus is shifted to emphasize the reaper threat, rather than synthetics in general.

The Reaper threat, represented by Sovereign in ME1, explicitly frame the conflict as organic vs. synthetic.

Maybe I'll have to go back and watch the conversation with Sovereign, but I don't recall him framing it as organic vs. synthetic. He might refer to Shepard and his allies as organics, but I do not remember him framing the conflict that way. I do remember him explicitly telling you over and over again that Reapers are infinitely better than organics, etc.

He calls them organics, and Shepard calls the Reapers machines. The terminology for the entire conversation is based on the synthetic/organic distinction.

[o Ventus]

It wasn't.

[wizardryforever]

Well I don't know about central focus, but it was definitely a big part of the series, particularly the first game, which has the most references to it.  Consider the Council ban on AI research, due to the belief that AIs are dangerous, and that this ban was present before the Geth uprising.  Clearly the government of the galaxy as a whole believes that there is a threat from synthetics.  Also there are side missions that reference it, such as the Presidium AI, or the derelict ship with husks going into the Perseus Veil, or the Armstrong Nebula missions.  And let's not forget:

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation.  An accident.  Your lives are measured in years, and decades.  You wither and die."

Shepard: "You're not even alive.  Not really.  You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!"

The series does move away from this as it goes on, so it seems jarring to bring it back at the end.  But it was a fairly big theme, so it's not like it comes out of nowhere.

[jtrook]

[comrade gando]

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

[CronoDragoon]

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.

Edit: While synthetics/organics is a major theme of Mass Effect, I believe it was one adequately covered by Rannoch. I do not believe it should have then been used again as the focus of the ME3 ending, at least not in such a blunt and literal way.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[o Ventus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.

...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).

[lamodite]

It was a theme

what ever happened to the humans are special theme. First 2 games talk a lot about humans. I always just assumed that humans would be a key to stopping the reaper threat. Boy was I completely ****ing wrong.

[djarlaks10]

It's because the first 90 hours is one thing, and the last 10 minutes of ME3 look like they have been taken from another franchise. Starchild and logic are 2 entire different things.

[Dutchess]

o Ventus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.

...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).

And isn't the real focus of the ending HOW to deal with the Reapers? Synthetic-organic is only the reason you're given for the Reapers' existence.

[D24O]

lamodite wrote...

It was a theme

what ever happened to the humans are special theme. First 2 games talk a lot about humans. I always just assumed that humans would be a key to stopping the reaper threat. Boy was I completely ****ing wrong.

Changing writers happened.

[o Ventus]

lamodite wrote...

It was a theme

what ever happened to the humans are special theme. First 2 games talk a lot about humans. I always just assumed that humans would be a key to stopping the reaper threat. Boy was I completely ****ing wrong.

"Humans R speshul" was a component for the dark energy plot, which was scrapped.