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When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?


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#51
CronoDragoon

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o Ventus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.


Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.


...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).


I am fine, as my edit above shows, with the idea that synthetics/organics is not THE THEME in Mass Effect as a trilogy. However, it was the biggest theme in Mass Effect 1 and is still one of the top 2-3 most importance themes in the series.

#52
o Ventus

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renjility wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.


Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.


...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).


And isn't the real focus of the ending HOW to deal with the Reapers? Synthetic-organic is only the reason you're given for the Reapers' existence.


I will ask you to point out anywhere in my post I made mention of the ending. The theme of the ending is irrelevant.

#53
Steel Dancer

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...I really hate to do this...  *hates the endings, albeit not as much as previously*
 
From "The Art of Mass Effect" released at the same time as ME1: Pg29
 
GETH
In the first story drafts, Saren’s geth army was actually a bat-like species. But as Mass Effect’s underlying theme of organics vs. machines emerged, the geth were rewritten as a synthetic lifeform.
 
 
It was planned, at least on some levels, from the start.

The execution of the idea was woeful, (Legion should never have been there if this was the plan all along) but the concept was there.

 
I feel…faintly dirty now.

#54
Blue Liara

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When Casey Hudson was indoctrinated by EA......He started Hearing these weird sounds in the back of his head......Artistic Integrity Artistic Integrity.

He fought it and fought it. Until finally he cracked and said, yes Artistic Integrity thats what matters. Screw the narrative coherence, and the story. We will all be better off when i get my Deus Ex-Machina ending.

When we ascend to Artistic Integrity all will be better. They will not want to but it is the only option and they must be forced.

Thats when organics vs synthetics became the focus. When Casey Hudson decided he was the star child.

#55
CronoDragoon

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Steel Dancer wrote...


The execution of the idea was woeful, (Legion should never have been there if this was the plan all along) but the concept was there.


Well, let me put it this way. Just because synthetics vs. organics was a major theme in Mass Effect does not mean that the theme continually manifested itself as "synthetics and organics fighting." Legion in ME2 was introduced as a way to flesh out the theme, to show that synthetics could work together with organics. Note that this is still the "organics vs. synthetics" theme, only it is the development of the story that this assertion is beginning to get rejected by events.

I think that what really gets people is not that the theme of ME3's ending is synthetic vs. organic, but rather that instead of the ultimate REJECTION of the inevitability of this conflict, it REAFFIRMS it.

Of course, if Destroy didn't kill the geth and EDI, it would be the ending that completely rejects the Catalyst's assertions. In this way, the Catalyst represents the naive, narrow-minded view that "the galaxy" has at the beginning of ME1 before the story (and Shepard) change things. But as it stands, it doesn't feel like it because those story elements that ultimately prove him wrong are slaughtered.

(This is why I believe the single largest problem with the current endings is by far the geth and EDI getting killed.)

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .


#56
o Ventus

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Steel Dancer wrote...

...I really hate to do this...  *hates the endings, albeit not as much as previously*
 
From "The Art of Mass Effect" released at the same time as ME1: Pg29
 
GETH
In the first story drafts, Saren’s geth army was actually a bat-like species. But as Mass Effect’s underlying theme of organics vs. machines emerged, the geth were rewritten as a synthetic lifeform.


I sincerely hope they know how ******-awfully they fleshed it out then.

#57
MegaSovereign

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...


The execution of the idea was woeful, (Legion should never have been there if this was the plan all along) but the concept was there.


Well, let me put it this way. Just because synthetics vs. organics was a major theme in Mass Effect does not mean that the theme continually manifested itself as "synthetics and organics fighting." Legion in ME2 was introduced as a way to flesh out the theme, to show that synthetics could work together with organics. Note that this is still the "organics vs. synthetics" theme, only it is the development of the story that this assertion is beginning to get rejected by events.

I think that what really gets people is not that the theme of ME3's ending is synthetic vs. organic, but rather that instead of the ultimate REJECTION of the inevitability of this conflict, it REAFFIRMS it.

Of course, if Destroy didn't kill the geth and EDI, it would be the ending that completely rejects the Catalyst's assertions. In this way, the Catalyst represents the naive, narrow-minded view that "the galaxy" has at the beginning of ME1 before the story (and Shepard) change things. But as it stands, it doesn't feel like it because those story elements that ultimately prove him wrong are slaughtered.


(This is why I believe the single largest problem with the current endings is by far the geth and EDI getting killed.)


Well, the Control ending could be viewed as rejecting the Catalyst. Since you are technically replacing him and repurposing his Reapers.

#58
CronoDragoon

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Well, the Control ending could be viewed as rejecting the Catalyst. Since you are technically replacing him and repurposing his Reapers.


That's true, although I would also mention that Control suggests that a force such as the Reapers is necessary for one reason or another, instead of trusting the capability of this cycle to work together, synthetic and organic alike. In other words, it is confirming that an entity such as the Catalyst is necessary. So I'm not sure it's quite the ultimate rejection that Destroy is.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:50 .


#59
D24O

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o Ventus wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

...I really hate to do this...  *hates the endings, albeit not as much as previously*
 
From "The Art of Mass Effect" released at the same time as ME1: Pg29
 
GETH
In the first story drafts, Saren’s geth army was actually a bat-like species. But as Mass Effect’s underlying theme of organics vs. machines emerged, the geth were rewritten as a synthetic lifeform.


I sincerely hope they know how ******-awfully they fleshed it out then.

Switching writers out is probably a major contributing factor.

#60
MegaSovereign

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CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Well, the Control ending could be viewed as rejecting the Catalyst. Since you are technically replacing him and repurposing his Reapers.


That's true, although I would also mention that Control suggests that a force such as the Reapers is necessary for one reason or another, instead of trusting the capability of this cycle to work together, synthetic and organic alike. In other words, it is confirming that an entity such as the Catalyst is necessary. So I'm not sure it's quite the ultimate rejection that Destroy is.


Well it's a morally grey area.

Mordin didn't approve of Maelon's experiments but he thought it was necessary to use it to develop the genophage cure despite its unethical origins. 

Control vs Destroy always seemed like Pragmatism vs Principle. I think that was what they were going for.

#61
Christianswe

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It never was the main focus of the story arc of Mass Effect, thats the problem. That is one of the big reasons people HATE the ending to ME3, it just comes out from left field. Sure it´s mentioned a little, but not as much as other themes. Anyway, it´s sad.

#62
D24O

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I wonder if it would be better to say Organic/Synthetic relations was a theme, rather than Organics versus synthetics.

#63
WarGriffin

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It's funny, cause the Best Ending makes you like the main antagonists of the series...


Bio-Synthetics

#64
MegaSovereign

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WarGriffin wrote...

It's funny, cause the Best Ending makes you like the main antagonists of the series...


Bio-Synthetics


There is no best ending.

#65
o Ventus

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D24O wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Steel Dancer wrote...

...I really hate to do this...  *hates the endings, albeit not as much as previously*
 
From "The Art of Mass Effect" released at the same time as ME1: Pg29
 
GETH
In the first story drafts, Saren’s geth army was actually a bat-like species. But as Mass Effect’s underlying theme of organics vs. machines emerged, the geth were rewritten as a synthetic lifeform.


I sincerely hope they know how ******-awfully they fleshed it out then.

Switching writers out is probably a major contributing factor.



I was talking about in ME1, when that theme was supposedly developed.

#66
Tealjaker94

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D24O wrote...

I wonder if it would be better to say Organic/Synthetic relations was a theme, rather than Organics versus synthetics.

That's a better way to put it. It's hardly the main theme in the series though. Survival against overwhelming odds, strength in unity, those were featured much more heavily.

#67
Tealjaker94

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MegaSovereign wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...

It's funny, cause the Best Ending makes you like the main antagonists of the series...


Bio-Synthetics


There is no best ending.

Of course there is. It's sleeping with Morinth in ME2. Couldn't think of a better way to go.

#68
CronoDragoon

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D24O wrote...

I wonder if it would be better to say Organic/Synthetic relations was a theme, rather than Organics versus synthetics.


I am on board with this. Or we could say the theme was "the concept that synthetics and organics are fundamentally in conflict." Because that covers both the fighting and the later rejection which ME2 and 3 seem to represent.

#69
Kel Riever

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It was a focus for exactly and only the last 5 minutes of the game after Anderson. You know, the part of the game that sucks and ruins everything else.

#70
D24O

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Tealjaker94 wrote...

D24O wrote...

I wonder if it would be better to say Organic/Synthetic relations was a theme, rather than Organics versus synthetics.

That's a better way to put it. It's hardly the main theme in the series though. Survival against overwhelming odds, strength in unity, those were featured much more heavily.

I know, and I agree with you, but because of the shift in emphasis during the ending, it's talked about a lot, and as the story was told, I don't think versus is a good word for it.

#71
CronoDragoon

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MegaSovereign wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Well, the Control ending could be viewed as rejecting the Catalyst. Since you are technically replacing him and repurposing his Reapers.


That's true, although I would also mention that Control suggests that a force such as the Reapers is necessary for one reason or another, instead of trusting the capability of this cycle to work together, synthetic and organic alike. In other words, it is confirming that an entity such as the Catalyst is necessary. So I'm not sure it's quite the ultimate rejection that Destroy is.


Well it's a morally grey area.

Mordin didn't approve of Maelon's experiments but he thought it was necessary to use it to develop the genophage cure despite its unethical origins. 

Control vs Destroy always seemed like Pragmatism vs Principle. I think that was what they were going for.


Agreed, but thinking something is pragmatically necessary is indeed a rejection of lesser order than rejecting both the idea and the existence of something.

#72
dreman9999

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 from thi time....

Liara v1.0:The machines are about to come back...

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:07 .


#73
KnifeForkAndSpoon

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Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

#74
Reorte

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Control vs Destroy always seemed like Pragmatism vs Principle. I think that was what they were going for.

That hardly works either because you can interpret either of them being either of those. Pragmatism is destroying the threat of the Reapers, pragmatism is keeping them around in case of synthetic problems.

As for the central theme I honestly never thought that there was one and having some underlying message is a rather tired, dull thing to do. It was all very much go out there and have big adventure being big goddamn heros.

Modifié par Reorte, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .


#75
TheMarshal

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 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .