311 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

The Reapers are synthetic, and this is how Shepard identifies them. Saren's motivation was to combine the strengths of organics and synthetics. The geth are defined by their identity as synthetics. And as we just found out, the ME team itself believed the main theme of ME1 to be synthetics/organics. So, it's the canon interpretation of those conflicts.

I believe ME2 changed this, but ME1 was pretty stark about the two sides being in conflict.

[SNascimento]

Organics vs Synthetics was a huge theme in ME1.

[dreman9999]

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Ah...Your one of those peopel who don't get that the catalyst is just doing what it's programed to do. And yes, on e of the major themes of ME is organics vs synthetics.

Hell, this is even in it's first advertizing...

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:31 .

[dreman9999]

CronoDragoon wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

The Reapers are synthetic, and this is how Shepard identifies them. Saren's motivation was to combine the strengths of organics and synthetics. The geth are defined by their identity as synthetics. And as we just found out, the ME team itself believed the main theme of ME1 to be synthetics/organics. So, it's the canon interpretation of those conflicts.

I believe ME2 changed this, but ME1 was pretty stark about the two sides being in conflict.

Me2 still stuck with the theme, it just went out of it's way to broden the universe. I think of it more of BW point that organics seek conflict. Add, can't the collector be seen in the same way as a machine doing what it's programed to do?

[Sheepie Crusher]

renjility wrote...


The Catalyst doesn't care if there is no war between synthetics and organics at the moment. His statement is that the synthetics always will rebel against their creators, and that is what the Geth did, no matter what follows.
.

This is not true, it was confirmed by Tali in ME1 and Legion in ME3 that the Quarians started the war

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Seival wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?

From the very beginning of the Trilogy.

Really because I never saw the Reapers or the geth as synthetics and must be stopped because they are synthetics.

[TheMarshal]

dreman9999 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Ah...Your one of those peopel who don't get that the catalyst is just doing what it's programed to do. And yes, on e of the major themes of ME is organics vs synthetics.

Hell, this is even in it's first advertizing...

So you skipped over the part of my post where I talked about the Catalyst's purpose and why I don't care about it?  And presumably also ignored the various places throughout the game where the Reapers were identified as something more than synthetic?  Or perhaps you misunderstood the part of my post where I talked about how calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" simplifies the real issue (according to the Catalyst), which is that the created will always rebel against their creators.  I don't recall humanity ever creating the Reapers.

Beyond that, though: Stated Intent != Conveyed Intent.  And you also seem to have overlooked that NONE of that dialogue was actually in the final game.

Edit: I seem to have merged yours and someone else's rebuttal together, but my points still stand.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:40 .

[dreman9999]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Seival wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

When was Organics vs. Synthetics ever the focus of the Trilogy?

From the very beginning of the Trilogy.

Really because I never saw the Reapers or the geth as synthetics and must be stopped because they are synthetics.

You depending on the too much. The general theme is organcis and synthetics need to take the time to under stand one another.

[LTKerr]

digby69 wrote...

When Mac Walters became GOD sole lead writer.

[Baa Baa]

digby69 wrote...

When Mac Walters became GOD sole lead writer.

[dreman9999]

TheMarshal wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Ah...Your one of those peopel who don't get that the catalyst is just doing what it's programed to do. And yes, on e of the major themes of ME is organics vs synthetics.

Hell, this is even in it's first advertizing...

So you skipped over the part of my post where I talked about the Catalyst's purpose and why I don't care about it?  And presumably also ignored the various places throughout the game where the Reapers were identified as something more than synthetic?  Or perhaps you misunderstood the part of my post where I talked about how calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" simplifies the real issue (according to the Catalyst), which is that the created will always rebel against their creators.  I don't recall humanity ever creating the Reapers.

Beyond that, though: Stated Intent != Conveyed Intent.  And you also seem to have overlooked that NONE of that dialogue was actually in the final game.

No I did not. I just saw it a bs to be straight.  The reapers in ME1 were alway seen as synthetic, they are just seen as near unstoppable, which is what you are refering to. That doesn't stop them from being seen as synthetic. 
And your your using a statement that the starchild made in teh wrong way. Why are using it to refer to humanity when the starchild clearly told you he was createdand bebeled ageints his creators?
 Your not getting that the organic /synthetic conflict was in the game from day one. Nor do you even understand why it happens. It all went over your head.

[TheMarshal]

dreman9999 wrote...

No I did not. I just saw it a bs to be straight.  The reapers in ME1 were alway seen as synthetic, they are just seen as near unstoppable, which is what you are refering to. That doesn't stop them from being seen as synthetic. 
And your your using a statement that the starchild made in teh wrong way. Why are using it to refer to humanity when the starchild clearly told you he was createdand bebeled ageints his creators?
 Your not getting that the organic /synthetic conflict was in the game from day one. Nor do you even understand why it happens. It all went over your head.

If you're going to try and call me stupid, please attempt to use proper English while doing it.

I'm not misinterpreting the Catalyst's statements at all.  "Synthetics vs. Organics" is its modus operandi and has been for millions of years (possibly more).  "Synthetics vs. Organics" in its mind is the idea that Synthetics (the created) will always rise up and destroy Organics (the creators).  This is the major theme that's missing from the trilogy right up until the final five minutes.

"Synthetics vs. Organics" as you seem to be presenting it is relying on the broadest interpretation of those labels, and literally means "Machines fighting People", which is still only partially true because the Reapers are only ever referred to as machines one time in a renegade response to Sovereign on Virmire.  Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

[CronoDragoon]

TheMarshal wrote...
 Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

They're a fusion because synthetics(or organics enslaved by synthetics) killed a crapload of organics, made slushies out of them, and injected the slush like heroin into the fetus machines they were making. Not exactly evidence against the synthetic/organic conflict theme.

[Dusen]

maaaze wrote...

DGMockingJay wrote...

But suddenly in ME3's ending, u are told that Geths are Bad, and conflict is inevitable.. WTF?? Geths do not fight Organics, Reapers make them fight each other, dammit.. At least in thsi cycle, it was like that!!

*facepalm* so rebellion is always bad ?...the Geth were forced by the quarians to fight them...it does not matter who shot first...who initated the conflict...it only matters what the endresults are...

The Geth rebelled without the influance of the reapers.

Did you even play the game? The geth clearly fought in self defence and if it wasn't for Reaper interference it's likely that we would never have seen the geth in any of the games as they always stayed in their own sector of space and never left.

[dreman9999]

TheMarshal wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No I did not. I just saw it a bs to be straight.  The reapers in ME1 were alway seen as synthetic, they are just seen as near unstoppable, which is what you are refering to. That doesn't stop them from being seen as synthetic. 
And your your using a statement that the starchild made in teh wrong way. Why are using it to refer to humanity when the starchild clearly told you he was createdand bebeled ageints his creators?
 Your not getting that the organic /synthetic conflict was in the game from day one. Nor do you even understand why it happens. It all went over your head.

If you're going to try and call me stupid, please attempt to use proper English while doing it.

I'm not misinterpreting the Catalyst's statements at all.  "Synthetics vs. Organics" is its modus operandi and has been for millions of years (possibly more).  "Synthetics vs. Organics" in its mind is the idea that Synthetics (the created) will always rise up and destroy Organics (the creators).  This is the major theme that's missing from the trilogy right up until the final five minutes.

"Synthetics vs. Organics" as you seem to be presenting it is relying on the broadest interpretation of those labels, and literally means "Machines fighting People", which is still only partially true because the Reapers are only ever referred to as machines one time in a renegade response to Sovereign on Virmire.  Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

Who said it was the one and only major theme of the story. Just because the starchild talks about it doesn't mean that. And your still missing the fact that the catalyst is only doing this because of his programing. He never decide this is a problem on his own, his creators do. Why don't you get this? And the reaper are not refer to as machines once at all in ME1. Shep call them machines after his dream, Tali states this too when she introduce the info on Saren batral. Many time in ME THE REAPERS ARE CALLED MACHINES. And a machine is still a machine if it's made of organic parts.
What ME does with this theme is introduce the conflict in ME1, then in ME2 they bring in the counter point of it with Legion who shows the player how machines think, how they don't have our morality.




Then we have Javik that addeed even more to the concept of how alien they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1cCgdgOEw 

And even at that point we can still have an understanding of one another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqd8TzHqEWE 

The point is these concepts and arguement should be used to look into  why the catalyst is acting the way it does.

They are machines, they don't have our morality. Judging them based on it is pointless, but if we take the time to understand one another we will have an equal understanding of it. But shackling  them and not letting them understand use creates things like the starchild.
The reapers are part of this arguement.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

TL;DR and lulz never.

[Dharvy]

Look, in nearly every story you have a protagonist and an antagonist. And in fantasy/sci-fi the great big evil antagonist sometimes is just that evil but also sometimes it has a sort of reasoning to its madness. I've played enough games, saw enough movies, and read enough books to nearly always wonder what motivate the antagonist to do the things it does, and I'm now bored with a story where the antagonist is just unexplained evil unless its some great writing. A story where you can relate to the enemies motive and create some moral dilemma is far more entertaining to me. Mindless, kill senselessly evil enemy is rather boring in games, movies, and books. With that being said was very interested in finding out the true purpose behind the Reapers, there origin and purpose. Why they feel they must harvest all advanced civilization. So the catalyst answered some questions for me and I was satisfied after understanding the motives.

And yes as someone else pointed out the underlining theme was organics and synthetics but the theme of the story do not have to be the motives of the antagonist.

[Mazebook]

Dusen wrote...

maaaze wrote...

DGMockingJay wrote...

But suddenly in ME3's ending, u are told that Geths are Bad, and conflict is inevitable.. WTF?? Geths do not fight Organics, Reapers make them fight each other, dammit.. At least in thsi cycle, it was like that!!

*facepalm* so rebellion is always bad ?...the Geth were forced by the quarians to fight them...it does not matter who shot first...who initated the conflict...it only matters what the endresults are...

The Geth rebelled without the influance of the reapers.

Did you even play the game? The geth clearly fought in self defence and if it wasn't for Reaper interference it's likely that we would never have seen the geth in any of the games as they always stayed in their own sector of space and never left.

did you...? the initial geth conflict was quite some time ago...and without reapers influance... or did you miss legions mission on rannoch?

did you even read my comment?..I said the geth were forced by the quarians...in both cases...rebellion does not make the geth the bad guys...but it did make them desperate..

[sammysoso]

It was always a part, with the whole Quarian/Geth thing, but I never considered it the main focus.

I always thought the primary theme was victory through unity.

Modifié par sammysoso, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:40 .

[dreman9999]

sammysoso wrote...

It was always a part, with the whole Quarian/Geth thing, but I never considered it the main focus.

I always thought the primary theme was victory through unity.

It's more about asking the player what lengths he would go to stop an unstoppable force.

[Dean_the_Young]

KBronx17 wrote...


The notion of combining synthetics and organics was introduced in the last ten minutes of the game.

In all honesty, that's wrong: Overlord was a hybrid synthetic-organic, while the Collectors and Reapers are two different mashes of organic and synthetic.

It's not that the concept didn't exist, but rather it was never treated as any sort of a good thing.

Yes, we get it, there are synthetics and organics in the game. But are they fighting because synthetics always rebel against their creators? No! It just so happens that some synthetics fight for the Reapers, some fight for civilization.

Hell, the reasons we fight synthetics amount to the most human of rationals: survival (Geth rebellions/Luna-VI) and religion (Heretics). Add on the extensive anthromorphization the writers bestow upon the Geth and EDI, and there's very little alien about them: you get more alien anime characters.




Overall, though, your point is correct: Synthetics vs. Organics was never a theme of the trilogy. It was a facet, in that we did have organics fighting synthetics here and there, but we also had organics fighting organics. 'Politicians are stupid and militaries are capable/efficient/honorable' were far stronger themes of the trilogy than organics vs. synthetics.

A big part of that was undoubtably how few synthetic factions were actually developed, and how only one of them had anything approaching a 'fundamental difference' with organic species. The Heretics were never developed and were gradually thrown away, but there reason for fighting against Organics was religious rather than hostility or fear. The True Geth were militant isolationists, not aggressors or expansionists, and only fought in self-defense. The Geth as a whole were heavily anthromorphized, and EDI was even more so as a faction of one.

The only synthetic race with 'fundamental differences' was the Repaers, and they go to extents to emphasize how they aren't pure-synthetic themselves.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:54 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Pretty much never, it was alluded to in Mass Effect 1 sort of. but that doesn't really count because it was more or less forgotten in ME2 and then took precedent in ME3.

[DadeLeviathan]

It never was, that's the whole reason why the crux of the ending doesn't work.

[rwilli80]

Well pretty much the entire trilogy, it was mostly hinted at by the fears of the Council and Quarians over the Geth and other AI constructs.

[Necrotron]

Synthetics versus organics was always a side plot, never the main theme, not to mention, the focus of that side plot was the humanity of synthetic beings and the creation of peace between disparate races, which flys in the face of everything the ending portrays.  Synthetics were never portrayed as warmongers, and were merely aggressive when defending themselves from extinction or when indoctrinated by Reaper code.

Modifié par Bathaius, 11 juillet 2012 - 01:36 .