311 réponses à ce sujet

[Eluril]

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

[memorysquid]

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Holy shnikes!  This.

The conflict was only the entirety of ME1 - Geth invading the Terminus anyone? - the majority of ME2 - Reaperized Protheans [everything replaced by TECH!] anyone? - and then the focus of ME3.  No, you're right OP, they just dragged that in out of nowhere.

[justafan]

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

I came here to say something but this pretty much sums it up.

Organics vs. Synthetics was the theme of ME1.  There was no such thing as heretics or syntho-organic Reapers back then.  It was simply a race of synthetic killbots teaming up with even older killbots to eliminate all organic life.

If we skipped ME2 and could only side with the Quarians in 3, then the catalyst's logic would be perfectly sound and reasonable.  ME2 however screwed up this theme with the inclusion of sympathetic Geth and hybrid reapers.  From the Derelict Reaper onward, the synthetic vs. organic theme is replaced by a theme of unity despite adversity.  Unfortunately, they tried to stick with the original theme in the ending, which did not go over too well considering the changes ME2 made...

[sammysoso]

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Yes, the Reapers were the central conflict, but that fact that they were synthetic wasn't the reason we were fighting them, it was because they were trying to KILL US (So, our new theme is...self defense?).

And the info about the other cycles was more of an anecdote, told to us by Javik (A DLC character that not everyone gets, so you should be able to take him out without any damage to the integrity of the story)

[Eluril]

Also another point is that even though some players were able to achieve peace between Quarians and Geth in ME3

1. This doesn't prove anything as the peace lasts a few weeks at most within the game universe.

and 2. Not everyone has the same experience/choices. In my main playthrough Tali was dead and therefore peace was impossible, making the synthetic organic conflict theme quite palpable.

[mashintao]

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Sorry, but no.

In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking.  That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers.   Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors?  Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do!  Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them!  Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics????  It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.

Modifié par mashintao, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:37 .

[ct700-5a]

The conflict was mentioned in the first Mass Effect; in the begining someone ( I think Tali) says that the Geth wanted to kill organics, and on Virmire Saren says that there will be conflict between the two. Although, since Saren is the main antagonist, the organic vs synthetic conflict isn't what the audience focuses on. The focus becomes stopping Saren from brigning back the Reapers. The first game seems to imply that the Reapers are synthetics, but the emphasis is on thet hreat of extermination, not an organic vs synthetic conflict. Still with the information provided this conclusion is easily reached.

Mass Effect 2 is where the organic/ synthetic conflict is disproven. It is shown that the Geth Shepard fought in Mass Effect 1 were heretics and that the main group prefered to stay isolated and would only fight organics if threatened. It is also stated that the Geth wanted to help fight the Reapers. In addition, Mass Effect 2 reveals that the Reapers are not purely synthetic; this moves the main confilct away from organics versus synthetics and to one soley about survival.

After the second Mass Effect the only cases of this conflict are the AI on the Citadel and the few isolated incidents in Mass Effect 2. Instead of implying the inevitablity of organics versus synthetics these sitautions show that a few synthetics view this as invetible. But this isn't any different then the organics who believe that the different species can't coexsist. This implies that organics and synthetics aren't different from one another. There will be synthethics who try to kill organics, but there are ogranics who will do the same; and there are synthetics and organics who will stand together just as organics ally with one another.  

Modifié par ct700-5a, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[daaaav]

Organics vs. Synthetics was NOT a theme of Mass Effect 1.

At least it wasn't conveyed using the Geth...

You spend the whole game fighting the Geth, true, but that's it! We know that they were created by the Quarians and rebelled but aside from that they aren't characterised at all. If the Geth were replaced by an organic slave race it would not have mattered from a thematic point of view. As far as we know they are fighting us because Sovereign / Saren told them to and NOT because they are synthetic, and we are organic.

The only time Bioware briefly touches on WHY organics may conflict with synthetics are during conversations with Legion, Javik and Edi. I.e. during Mass Effect 2 and 3.

I guess you could argue that the organic / synthetic conflict is introduced by Sovereign himself but he makes it pretty clear that he considers Geth and organics to be equally inferior. This is further conflated by the ambiguity of Reaper physiology, are they synthetic or organic synthetic hybrids?

My point is that you can't say that organics vs. synthetics is the major theme of ME1 simply because the Geth are synthetic. What's important is WHY we are fighting the Geth. In ME1 we are fighting them because Soverieign controls them and not because of an unavoidable esoteric prejudice.

[Mr Powers94]

mashintao wrote...

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Sorry, but no.

In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking.  That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers.   Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors?  Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do!  Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them!  Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics????  It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.

heres a link to ME 1 where the reapers/geth are not involved at all. It is purely organic life versus synthetic..... so you know there it is..... the link.....the tie in......an argument that dissproves the conflict between synthetics and organics was a random theme brought into the third game. Also what about the whole quarian thing which occured approximatley three hundred years before shepard or anyone was aware of the reapers existance at all?



another ME 1 plot line where there are no reapers/geth involved but the theme of organics versus synthetics is clearly present.

[u][b]

In ME 2 thereb was the virus side quest where mechs(synthetics) go haywhire and kill all organic life in their path it is tarced back to a crazed ai who is freaking out about containment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjNeUsGoU08

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[KBronx17]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

mashintao wrote...

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Sorry, but no.

In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking.  That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers.   Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors?  Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do!  Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them!  Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics????  It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.

heres a link to ME 1 where the reapers/geth are not involved at all. It is purely organic life versus synthetic..... so you know there it is..... the link.....the tie in......an argument that dissproves the conflict between synthetics and organics was a random theme brought into the third game. Also what about the whole quarian thing which occured approximatley three hundred years before shepard or anyone was aware of the reapers existance at all?



another ME 1 plot line where there are no reapers/geth involved but the theme of organics versus synthetics is clearly present.


                                                                      SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                                                              














FUN FACT: the rogue vi is edi as we find out in mass effect 3  

Okay, maybe I'm crazy, but just because you're up against a stupid gambling machine in one side mission has nothing to do with the conflict of organics vs. synthetics. This is about 5 minutes of gameplay, and it was an optional mission. I do not believe this side mission was "lets introduce the theme of organics vs. a synthetic gambling machine!" Uh....no


Secondly, the VI in ME1 is referred to as rogue, inferring that it is malfunctioning. You could say that they call it rogue simply because it didn't do what its creators wanted it to, but that rogue VI becomes your friend. So a rogue VI that gets under control and then becomes your ally highlights the theme of organics vs. synthetics? I think not.

[eddieoctane]

The organic vs synthetic issue was about as important to the series as the animosity between Krogans and Turians. It helped to flavor the universe but was hardly the core theme. Mac made a decision to change it in the 11th hour and thus failed miserably. The undertones of the Quarian-Geth conflict or robots against living things was not as important as the possibility to overcome those differences and be stronger for it. The issues Wrex has with the Hierarchy weren't about how avian and reptillian life forms can't get along or how dextro and levo-amino acids organism are incompatible, it was there to allow for an opportunity to get over old hatreds. The ending didn't fit the themes presented throughout the rest of the series. Thus, it failed.

[Mr Powers94]

eddieoctane wrote...

The organic vs synthetic issue was about as important to the series as the animosity between Krogans and Turians. It helped to flavor the universe but was hardly the core theme. Mac made a decision to change it in the 11th hour and thus failed miserably. The undertones of the Quarian-Geth conflict or robots against living things was not as important as the possibility to overcome those differences and be stronger for it. The issues Wrex has with the Hierarchy weren't about how avian and reptillian life forms can't get along or how dextro and levo-amino acids organism are incompatible, it was there to allow for an opportunity to get over old hatreds. The ending didn't fit the themes presented throughout the rest of the series. Thus, it failed.

first of all the gambling machine is an ai about equal to edi, second of all these are conflicts optional side quest or not, and yes edi ends up as your freind but she still trys to kill you that seems like conflict to me. also see my updated post for an example from ME 2 which is spread out over three missions (yes their also optional but dont try and use that against my argument because they are part of the game, the story, and the universe. if your shepard does do these side quests the plot doesnt dissapear it means you shepard didnt solve the conflicts between synthetics and organics )

P.S. i love how you keep avoiding the quarian argument which total disproves your argument way, to drag this out by not looking at hard facts

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:32 .

[Ticonderoga117]

The main focus of the franchise: The Reapers want to kill us all, we want to live.
-The Rachni were indoctrinated by the Reapers
-The Heretical Geth were indoctrinated by the Reapers
-Saren was indoctrinated by the Reapers
-The Protheans got hijacked by the Reapers to do their bidding.

Thus, the Reapers Vs The Galaxy was the main conflict of THE ENTIRE FRANCHISE.
Or, for those who love categories: Hybrids Vs Synthetics and Organics.

So, why do people like the Catalyst again? Especially since he becomes the protagonist and Shepard becomes the antagonist in the last 10 minutes?

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?

The notion of combining synthetics and organics was introduced in the last ten minutes of the game.

Yes, we get it, there are synthetics and organics in the game. But are they fighting because synthetics always rebel against their creators? No! It just so happens that some synthetics fight for the Reapers, some fight for civilization.

Your argument would have a lot more weight if you never fought with organics. Legion even called the geth that fight with sovereign the heretics.

In the last ten minutes of what game? ME1? It was the motivation for the villain you fight for most of the game. That makes it important.

Sovereign makes it clear he is against you because you are ORGANICS. That makes this theme explicitly important in ME1. 

Your last point is ME2 stuff, which as I said above muddles the issue in a very good way. I am mostly against this idea that in ME1 synthetics vs. organics was not a main theme.

Sovereign never gave a reason as to why he was against you. If what you are saying was true then the endings would make less sense because the reapers are never truly against us.

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

D24O wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

How does Sovereign change this? He calls them organics explicitly...

Because the focus is shifted to emphasize the reaper threat, rather than synthetics in general.

The Reaper threat, represented by Sovereign in ME1, explicitly frame the conflict as organic vs. synthetic.

Wrong because you also found out that the Reapers were going to destroy the Geth once they were done with them and because the reapers aren't the synthetics the ending talks about.

[Mr Powers94]

alberto4395 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Will someone please explain to me how organics vs. synthetics was not a focus in a game (ME1) where you are organics fighting a synthetic army led by someone who wants to combine synthetics and organics who is being controlled by a synthetic that wants to destroy organics?

The notion of combining synthetics and organics was introduced in the last ten minutes of the game.

Yes, we get it, there are synthetics and organics in the game. But are they fighting because synthetics always rebel against their creators? No! It just so happens that some synthetics fight for the Reapers, some fight for civilization.

Your argument would have a lot more weight if you never fought with organics. Legion even called the geth that fight with sovereign the heretics.

In the last ten minutes of what game? ME1? It was the motivation for the villain you fight for most of the game. That makes it important.

Sovereign makes it clear he is against you because you are ORGANICS. That makes this theme explicitly important in ME1. 

Your last point is ME2 stuff, which as I said above muddles the issue in a very good way. I am mostly against this idea that in ME1 synthetics vs. organics was not a main theme.

Sovereign never gave a reason as to why he was against you. If what you are saying was true then the endings would make less sense because the reapers are never truly against us.

I am the vanguard of your destruction. thats why he is against you he's the vanguard of your destruction it the job he was aqssigned and shepard killed him for just trying to do his job. its said that sovereing last thought were "Damn i was three days from retirment"

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.

...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).

I am fine, as my edit above shows, with the idea that synthetics/organics is not THE THEME in Mass Effect as a trilogy. However, it was the biggest theme in Mass Effect 1 and is still one of the top 2-3 most importance themes in the series.

Agreed but this is supposed to be about the main theme. We all know man vs machine was very important but not the main conflict.

[daaaav]

Once again, the only instance in the ENTIRE series where Bioware attempts to present a case for WHY synthetics and organics are inherently doomed to fight each other is presented by Javik in Mass Effect 3 in a few lines of dialogue.

Every single other instance has synthetics as arbitrary enemies or is a chance to refute the conflict.

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...



(This is why I believe the single largest problem with the current endings is by far the geth and EDI getting killed.)

This x1000

[Ticonderoga117]

daaaav wrote...

Once again, the only instance in the ENTIRE series where Bioware attempts to present a case for WHY synthetics and organics are inherently doomed to fight each other is presented by Javik in Mass Effect 3 in a few lines of dialogue.

Every single other instance has synthetics as arbitrary enemies or is a chance to refute the conflict.

Pretty much, except for that Quasar AI. However, a few lines of dialogue does not mean it's the entire point of the franchise, especially when a much larger part allows you to heal the only rift between synthetics and organics.

[Bill Casey]

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

You'd have to be ignorant to think the Reapers weren't organic synthetic hybrids after playing through Mass Effect 1...

[cbutz]

eddieoctane wrote...

The organic vs synthetic issue was about as important to the series as the animosity between Krogans and Turians. It helped to flavor the universe but was hardly the core theme. Mac made a decision to change it in the 11th hour and thus failed miserably. The undertones of the Quarian-Geth conflict or robots against living things was not as important as the possibility to overcome those differences and be stronger for it. The issues Wrex has with the Hierarchy weren't about how avian and reptillian life forms can't get along or how dextro and levo-amino acids organism are incompatible, it was there to allow for an opportunity to get over old hatreds. The ending didn't fit the themes presented throughout the rest of the series. Thus, it failed.

Some one get this man a freshly baked cookie with 10 internet points. This is exactly how I felt this "syntheitc and organic relations" theme was. Like the genophage, it was backstory, flavor to a universe that has many problems, and a big one (the reapers) on the way.  It added cahracter to the unvierse and cahracters, some characters look for chances to rage against the machine whiel others press for coexistence.  Having said that, the very fact that Legion, a geth, can walk around ont he Citadel, shoudl tell you how important this theme is to those in that universe, "they are not the buggy men they once were." I don't know...Bioware really hung it's hat on the wrong theme for the ending, well for teh Reapers motivation.

[SlyTF1]

It was the focus when Bioware decided to pull it out of their asses to satisfy the empty plot of a completely bs, rushed ending.

[Necrotron]

mashintao wrote...

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Sorry, but no.

In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking.  That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers.   Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors?  Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do!  Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them!  Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics????  It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.

Thank you.

[Mr Powers94]

alberto4395 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Hell no. The equivalent to this would be the primary conflict in the movie Titanic at the last 10 minutes turned in to trying to solve world hunger. Does that make sense?......No. It doesnt.

Your analogy makes even less sense. World hunger is never mentioned in Titanic. Synthetics and organics are mentioned quite a bit.

...

Which by no means makes it the focus of the trilogy. The focus of the trilogy was established on Eden Prime in ME1, stop the Reapers (Or you could say it was established when Tali shows you her evidence against Saren).

I am fine, as my edit above shows, with the idea that synthetics/organics is not THE THEME in Mass Effect as a trilogy. However, it was the biggest theme in Mass Effect 1 and is still one of the top 2-3 most importance themes in the series.

Agreed but this is supposed to be about the main theme. We all know man vs machine was very important but not the main conflict.

i agree that synthetic versus organic is probably not the main theme (in my mind it is ovbercoming adersity, or hope) what i disagree with was that the origional post presented the idea that the theme of synthetics versus organics was not prominent or even exsitent through out the trilogy. 

KBronx17 :"In Mass Effect 1, the characters were predominantly organic. The only real instance of synthetics vs. organics was when you fought the geth, who were being used as pawns by the Reapers. Side Note: Mass Effect Wiki says the Reapers are synthetic-organics? Okay, fine, but when I fought Sovereign, I wasn't thinking "Wow we're fighting Sovereign because its partially synthetic!"

In Mass Effect 2, once again, the conflict really wasn't present. It was organics, EDI, and Legion, versus an enslaved organic race. This enslaved race, yes, did happen to be controlled by a partially synthetic Harbinger, but that trait was unimportant. EDI and Legion were also allies, obviously, and I thought "Oh look, the Geth aren't always evil". Not that I wanted to fuse organics and synthetics, but you get my point.

Then, in Mass Effect 3: Synthetics vs. Organics is not a major factor. Okay, so it was an undertone in the Quarians vs. Geth conflict. So what? That was one obstacle you faced in the game. What about everything else?

Anyway, so by now the only conflict present in my mind is Civilization vs. Reapers. Period. Maybe a little bit of a conflict over what to do with the Reapers (Destroy/Control, as encountered with The Illusive Man). But no, I'm not really thinking about Synthetics vs. Organics."

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:51 .