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[alberto4395]

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

[Baa Baa]

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

[MegaSovereign]

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

Mac Walters has been a lead writer since Mass Effect 2. He's not new.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .

[Bill Casey]

The central conflict is Organics and Synthetics vs. Synthesis...

[Baa Baa]

MegaSovereign wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

Mac Walters has been a lead writer since Mass Effect 2. He's not new.

Yeah been then he had Drew to keep him from doing anything stupid

[daaaav]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Once again, the only instance in the ENTIRE series where Bioware attempts to present a case for WHY synthetics and organics are inherently doomed to fight each other is presented by Javik in Mass Effect 3 in a few lines of dialogue.

Every single other instance has synthetics as arbitrary enemies or is a chance to refute the conflict.

Pretty much, except for that Quasar AI. However, a few lines of dialogue does not mean it's the entire point of the franchise, especially when a much larger part allows you to heal the only rift between synthetics and organics.

Whats more, I didn't recruit Javik for my first play through...

So throughout the series I was fighting synthetics for a myriad of reasons including control by reapers, hacked by organics, insane VI. (Yes the quarians and Geth commited atrocities on each other but that is hardly unique to synthetics).

I was given numerous opportunities to utterly refute the idea that organics and synthetics are doomed

The Reapers were portrayed organic / synthetic hybrids who have equal disdain for organics and synthetics

And... I was NEVER exposed to a single reason why this conflict should exist at all!!

So then I meet the Catalyst and the rest is history.

[Ticonderoga117]

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

Humans?! Too mainstream. We are totally going to do Matrix Deus Ex Terminator I, Robot WarGames Battlestar Galatica my own idea!

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[dreman9999]

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

[daaaav]

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

You've been fighting Blue Sun Mercs since ME1 as well. Why is this not the main theme?

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

Humans?! Too mainstream. We are totally going to do Matrix Deus Ex Terminator I, Robot WarGames Battlestar Galatica my own idea!

Agian, we've been fighting sythetics sice ME1. We fought the majority of the synthetics in the ME series in ME1.

[alberto4395]

dreman9999 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Ah...Your one of those peopel who don't get that the catalyst is just doing what it's programed to do. And yes, on e of the major themes of ME is organics vs synthetics.

Hell, this is even in it's first advertizing...

I don't know what your first statement had to do with any of that.
We all know it is a major theme but it isn't THE theme.

[Mr Powers94]

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

ive been arguing that aswell, also following the lore their had fighting between organice and sythetics roughly three hundred years prior to me1 with the quarian(organic)/geth(synthetic) conflict(war)

once again i also agree with the above post (see previous posts) my issue is with arguments that it isnt a theme

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[dreman9999]

daaaav wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

You've been fighting Blue Sun Mercs since ME1 as well. Why is this not the main theme?

We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?

[Baa Baa]

dreman9999 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

You've been fighting Blue Sun Mercs since ME1 as well. Why is this not the main theme?

We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?

We were fighting them because of the Reapers. The Reapers were practically encouraging Synthetic conflict.

[Mr Powers94]

dreman9999 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

We've been fighting synthetics since ME1.

You've been fighting Blue Sun Mercs since ME1 as well. Why is this not the main theme?

We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?

organic versus organic is a very important the to me aswell it is seen in all three games. shep vs cerberus, shep vs mercs, shep vs VS in ME2 ME3, councils infighting, batarians versus humans, the first contact war, me1 dl, anderson vs udina or csec (great cutscenes)

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .

[Bill Casey]

Also, the Catalyst is no longer purely synthetic. He embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, and the reapers are a billion organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies...


Where's my chart o' "forcibly combining organic and synthetic life into the final evolution"

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
 Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

They're a fusion because synthetics(or organics enslaved by synthetics) killed a crapload of organics, made slushies out of them, and injected the slush like heroin into the fetus machines they were making. Not exactly evidence against the synthetic/organic conflict theme.

You don't understand. The Reapers cannot be used to support organics vs synthetics because they aren't the synthetics in that. The reapers actions are not the synthetics actions.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Agian, we've been fighting sythetics sice ME1. We fought the majority of the synthetics in the ME series in ME1.

Who were indoctrinated BY THE REAPERS.

So thus, we have been fighting the Hybrids through proxies. Either the proxes are organics who got paid, or synthetics who got hacked.

[daaaav]

dreman9999 wrote...

We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?

My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.

The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.

[Mr Powers94]

alberto4395 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
 Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

They're a fusion because synthetics(or organics enslaved by synthetics) killed a crapload of organics, made slushies out of them, and injected the slush like heroin into the fetus machines they were making. Not exactly evidence against the synthetic/organic conflict theme.

You don't understand. The Reapers cannot be used to support organics vs synthetics because they aren't the synthetics in that. The reapers actions are not the synthetics actions.

ive given examples of organics vs synthetics when the reapers are not involved at all

[dreman9999]

alberto4395 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

 I think several people here are conflating Synthetics vs. Organics and Reapers vs. Organics.  The latter is the true theme throughout the series.  The former is a sub-theme of the first game, only not really because the geth (the synthetics) are being directed by Saren (an organic) who is in turn being controlled by Sovereign (a Reaper).
Now, there are several in-game characters who argue that the geth are the true enemy (Heya Mr. turian Councilor!), but these assertions are only in place to aggravate the protagonist, who understands that the Reapers are the real threat.

This is of course skirting the fact that calling it "Synthetics vs. Organics" oversimplifies the Catalyst's point of view, which is that Organic evolution is too slow, and that upon creation of a Synthetic form of life, which will evolve faster than them, they have inevitably doomed themselves since the Synthetics will rise up and destroy them.  That particular gem was only ever seen in the story if you didn't pay close enough attention to the geth/quarian conflict.  The closest we actually get to Synthetics rebelling against their creators is in Project Overlord, when an Organic is given the capabilities of a Synthetic and goes on a rampage.  Still not quite the same thing, but if you want to argue it go right ahead.

But the simple answer is this: the story of Mass Effect never was about Organics vs. Synthetics.  However, the story of the Reapers has always been about Organics vs. Synthetics.  The Catalyst was created by that ancient race to deal with that problem and it did so in perhaps the most meme-tastic way possible.  It was a Synthetic created by Organics to protect Organics from being destroyed by their Synthetic creations, and the way it did that was to destroy Organics (only not really - lol preservation).  So we get to the end-game and confront our enemy and find out how truly insane it is.  Lucky for us that it is so insane that it provides for us three different means of resolving our problem, which also resolves its problem in various degrees of success.

This unfortunately still makes for some wretched storytelling.  Imagine if in the final five minutes of Lord of the Rings (at least the final five before the twenty minutes of ending sequences, that is), we discover that Sauron created the rings of power and the One Ring because he believed that the peoples of the land would never stop warring amongst themselve, and would eventually destroy each other.  It's bad storytelling because up until this point Sauron has never had what one might call "reasoning" behind his actions.  Nor was he ever presented as any sort of "person" with whom I might relate to.  Why then would I care what his reasonings are at the 11th hour as I get ready to defeat him?

I wouldn't.  I don't.  I didn't.  And from the uproar on these forums and beyond, a lot of people didn't either.

Ah...Your one of those peopel who don't get that the catalyst is just doing what it's programed to do. And yes, on e of the major themes of ME is organics vs synthetics.

Hell, this is even in it's first advertizing...

I don't know what your first statement had to do with any of that.
We all know it is a major theme but it isn't THE theme.

If you really want to know what THE THEME is...It a question of what lenght the player will go to stop an unstopple force. Sure, a major theme is about synthetics, but there themes of unity, control, understing, ruthlessness, logic, over emotion and survival. Their toomany directions this game can go just say one of the themes is the theme. Organics and synthetics is a major one. It's more organic /synthetic relation in general. The reaper are still cover under it. You given 4 ending, 2 of which have 3 veriaties. Take the theme as you will. It's just about bring the player to moral conflict via choices.

[Bill Casey]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Agian, we've been fighting sythetics sice ME1. We fought the majority of the synthetics in the ME series in ME1.

Who were indoctrinated BY THE REAPERS.

So thus, we have been fighting the Hybrids through proxies. Either the proxes are organics who got paid, or synthetics who got hacked.

Saren: They believe Sovereign to be some kind of god. The pinnacle of their own evolution. But the reaction of their deity is most telling: It is insulted.

[MegaSovereign]

Baa Baa wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.

Until a certain new lead writer came in...

Mac Walters has been a lead writer since Mass Effect 2. He's not new.

Yeah been then he had Drew to keep him from doing anything stupid

Well they couldn't screw up Mass Effect 2's plot. It never had one.

EDIT: Going off-topic. Sorry about that.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:10 .

[Eluril]

Bathaius wrote...

mashintao wrote...

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Sorry, but no.

In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking.  That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers.   Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors?  Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do!  Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them!  Reapers vs Civilization +1

In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics????  It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.

Thank you.

Thanks for being wrong, as I stated, just because you made peace between the Geth and Quarians doesn't mean everyone or even a majority of players did. Further, I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game. And finally most of this stuff is irrelevant to the Catalyst's thought pattern: It thinks in terms of millions of years not the short time frame we're aware of within the games and also even within the games Conflict is permanent. Even without the Reapers the Quarians and Geth battled (again it's irrelevant why they fought, only that they fought). EDI went crazy on Luna. The Council bans synthetic intelligence for a reason, they don't just do it for fun or because it's "neat". And yes Javik's information is "canon" whether you downloaded it or not which is even more strong evidence for the theme of organic versus synthetic.

As someone said above it's organic and synthetic diversity and freedom Vs. forced synthesis through Reaper war crimes

[Bill Casey]

Eluril wrote...

I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game.

What about when you touch Sovereign's mind?