Mr Powers94 wrote...
ive given examples of organics vs synthetics when the reapers are not involved at all
I am Mr Powers94 and I support this argument........well the parts i read anyway's.Eluril wrote...
Bathaius wrote...
mashintao wrote...
Eluril wrote...
You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.
In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.
Sorry, but no.
In ME1, the Geth are manipulated by the Reapers into attacking. That would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the Reapers. Reapers vs Civilization +1
In ME2, who controls the tech of the collectors? Golly jee wiz, the REAPERS do! Harbinger even has DIRECT CONTROL of them! Reapers vs Civilization +1
In ME3, the Reapers suddenly ARE attacking all civilization personally and the only war between organics and synthetics is ended peacefully, but yet it suddenly pops out of nowhere that Reapers are actually saving us from synthetics???? It's NEVER been about being synthetic or organic... it's ALWAYS been about the galaxy surviving against being manipulated and harvested by the Reapers.
Thank you.
Thanks for being wrong, as I stated, just because you made peace between the Geth and Quarians doesn't mean everyone or even a majority of players did. Further, I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game. And finally most of this stuff is irrelevant to the Catalyst's thought pattern: It thinks in terms of millions of years not the short time frame we're aware of within the games and also even within the games Conflict is permanent. Even without the Reapers the Quarians and Geth battled (again it's irrelevant why they fought, only that they fought). EDI went crazy on Luna. The Council bans synthetic intelligence for a reason, they don't just do it for fun or because it's "neat". And yes Javik's information is "canon" whether you downloaded it or not which is even more strong evidence for the theme of organic versus synthetic.
As someone said above it's organic and synthetic diversity and freedom Vs. forced synthesis through Reaper war crimes
Modifié par Mr Powers94, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .
Bill Casey wrote...
Saren: They believe Sovereign to be some kind of god. The pinnacle of their own evolution. But the reaction of their deity is most telling: It is insulted.
The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly
understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic
field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate
areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect
varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer
headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or
paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to
amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.
You need to take note to why conflict happen with synthetics.daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:18 .
daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
Bill Casey wrote...
Eluril wrote...
I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game.
What about when you touch Sovereign's mind?
You need to take note to why conflict happen with synthetics.KBronx17 wrote...
daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
This.
You can say that organics vs. synthetics was a minor theme. It was somewhat elevated in ME3 simply because of Quarians vs. Geth. But organics vs. synthetics was never and is not a prevailing theme in the series. Yes organics fought synthetics in ME1. But, it has been countlessly restated that the Geth were PAWNS of the reapers. They were simply a tool of the Reapers, which were/are a hybrid species.
And I'm not fighting the Reapers because they're a hybrid species....its because they kill innocents in the universe and I (Shepard) will not tolerate mass genocide.
Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:18 .
Even in ME1 we learn that the Geth are just tools to the Reapers.memorysquid wrote...
Eluril wrote...
You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.
In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.
Holy shnikes! This.
The conflict was only the entirety of ME1 - Geth invading the Terminus anyone? - the majority of ME2 - Reaperized Protheans [everything replaced by TECH!] anyone? - and then the focus of ME3. No, you're right OP, they just dragged that in out of nowhere.
daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:17 .
Bill Casey wrote...
Eluril wrote...
I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game.
What about when you touch Sovereign's mind?
it is a prevailing theme and not a minor one it is present not only in all three games but the lore of the universe aswell. and their are plenty of examples that dont involve the reapers at all. i agree it may not be the theme but their is nothing minor about it.KBronx17 wrote...
daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
This.
You can say that organics vs. synthetics was a minor theme. It was somewhat elevated in ME3 simply because of Quarians vs. Geth. But organics vs. synthetics was never and is not a prevailing theme in the series. Yes organics fought synthetics in ME1. But, it has been countlessly restated that the Geth were PAWNS of the reapers. They were simply a tool of the Reapers, which were/are a hybrid species.
And I'm not fighting the Reapers because they're a hybrid species....its because they kill innocents in the universe and I (Shepard) will not tolerate mass genocide.
The reapers themselve are examples. And your ignoring overlord and the virus mech mission.alberto4395 wrote...
Even in ME1 we learn that the Geth are just tools to the Reapers.memorysquid wrote...
Eluril wrote...
You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.
In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.
Holy shnikes! This.
The conflict was only the entirety of ME1 - Geth invading the Terminus anyone? - the majority of ME2 - Reaperized Protheans [everything replaced by TECH!] anyone? - and then the focus of ME3. No, you're right OP, they just dragged that in out of nowhere.
ME2 nothing the reapers do counts towards the ending because they aren't the synthetics in organics vs synthetics.
ME3 had this pop up as a side thing. (Rannoch, EDI, Javik(DLC) )
Eluril wrote...
Wait are you saying a synthetic would never use the term "mind"? This is really outside the scope of my expertise. At no point prior to Mass Effect 2 did I ever think the Reapers were anything other than pure machines with machine parts.
Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:21 .
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Bill Casey wrote...
Eluril wrote...
I will restate the fact that the player is not given concrete evidence that the Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids until the end of the second game.
What about when you touch Sovereign's mind?
"We are the pinnacle of evolution."
[/quote]
Bill Casey wrote...
daaaav wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We fought them once in ME1..... How many time did we fight the Geth in ME1?
My point is that we fight the Geth because they have been influenced by Sovereign. We are not fighting them BECAUSE they are synthetic.
The Catalysts argument is that conflict between organics and synthetics is certain simply because of our nature. This is not reinfored ANYWHERE in the narrative except by Javiks experiences.
If you bring Javik with you on the Geth Dreadnought, you get this exchange...
Prothean: In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal, merciless.
Tali: Keelah. What did you do?
Prothean: We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us.
Bill Casey wrote...
Eluril wrote...
Wait are you saying a synthetic would never use the term "mind"? This is really outside the scope of my expertise. At no point prior to Mass Effect 2 did I ever think the Reapers were anything other than pure machines with machine parts.
No, I mean what it shows you when you do...
I know but it's a joke.MegaSovereign wrote...
alberto4395 wrote...
Until a certain new lead writer came in...KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...
Someone told me that humanity's place in the galaxy was the central theme and when I thought about the ending dilemmas of 1 and 2 (destroy/save council and destroy/keep the base for Cerberus) it seemed to line up with that.
Mac Walters has been a lead writer since Mass Effect 2. He's not new.
Eluril wrote...
Synthetic evolution is the whole idea of the technological singularity which is the overarching idea of the series and universe in my opinion.
Eluril wrote...
I'm remembering vague flashes of organic beings being liquidated but nothing that says the Reapers absorb those
beings and their minds into a vat of goo that they then use to reproduce a hybridized species of giant planet killing robots
Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:29 .
That isn't what was shown about them at all. It's not to not be racist, it to understand them. ME2 and ME3 took the time to show the difference of synthetics form organics, but through understanding we can get along. The ending just show the biggest fault synthetic have, they just do what they are programed to do and can only be free if they cwn rewrite their own programing. And they are just as dangerous shackled as then unshackled....Even worst shackled because the don't have the freedom to stop themselves.Psychlonus wrote...
Until the last 10 minutes, I always thought the synthetic vs organic thing was just one of many constructs put there to create moral dilemmas for the player. The unique bit with Mass Effect AI is the exposition that AI are self-aware. And the only thing such exposition creates is the moral dilemma of AI being a race. I thought having a Geth and EDI as squaddies was just put there to further that point: don't be a racist, they're just like everyone else. Then in the last 10 minutes we are told that no, that race isn't just like any other race...
Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .
i like that last line a great philosophicle argument as to wether advanced ai technology is any more dangerous than less developed technologydreman9999 wrote...
That isn't what was shown about thema at all. It's not to not be racist, it to understand them. ME2 and ME3 took the time to show the difference of synthetics form organics, but through understanding we can get along. The ending just show the biggest fault synthetic have, they just do what they are programed to do and can only be free if they cwn rewrite their own programing. And they are just as dangerous shackled as then unshackled....Even worst shackled because the don't have the freedom to stop themselves.Psychlonus wrote...
Until the last 10 minutes, I always thought the synthetic vs organic thing was just one of many constructs put there to create moral dilemmas for the player. The unique bit with Mass Effect AI is the exposition that AI are self-aware. And the only thing such exposition creates is the moral dilemma of AI being a race. I thought having a Geth and EDI as squaddies was just put there to further that point: don't be a racist, they're just like everyone else. Then in the last 10 minutes we are told that no, that race isn't just like any other race...
a care is a machine but what is it powered by fossil fuels does this make the car partly organic. no.Eluril wrote...
I'm not going to keep arguing subjective opinions about the precise moments each of us thought the Reapers were part organic. They identify in my mind 95% as synthetic because of their size, shape, manner of speaking, machine like behavior patterns etc. Just because they liquify organics into a puree doesn't mean they are 50/50 organic machines. I only began thinking of them as partially organic at the end of ME2, we could take a poll but I don't care to keep arguing about it.
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