311 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mr Powers94 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Eluril wrote...

You'd have to be willfully ignorant to miss this as the overarching theme of the series. Throughout Mass Effect 1 and almost the entirety of ME2 the Reapers are presented as purely synthetics to the player. It is only near the End of ME2 that the player is explicitly told that the Reapers are also partially organic.

In addition, we have information about two cycles ours and the Protheans. In both cycles there was conflict between synthetics and organics. Who started it, why it happened etc. is irrelevant to the Catalyst's problem. The only problem it cares about is that there IS conflict. Whether the Protheans and the Quarians started it or not is not part of its calculus as it does not care.

Holy shnikes!  This.

The conflict was only the entirety of ME1 - Geth invading the Terminus anyone? - the majority of ME2 - Reaperized Protheans [everything replaced by TECH!] anyone? - and then the focus of ME3.  No, you're right OP, they just dragged that in out of nowhere.

Even in ME1 we learn that the Geth are just tools to the Reapers.
ME2 nothing the reapers do counts towards the ending because they aren't the synthetics in organics vs synthetics.
ME3 had this pop up as a side thing. (Rannoch, EDI, Javik(DLC) )

The reapers themselve are examples. And your ignoring overlord and the virus mech mission.

The reapers cannot be examples because they are not part of the synthetic vs organic "problem".
Overlord was similar but very different because it was a man controlling the machines not the machines on their own.
The virus was an unimportant side quest and it was a VI not AI like the reapers apparently want to stop.

the fact that it was a side quest does not determin its importance. in a book the are many side plots but they are just as important as the main story because they help build the fictional world you observing in your mind as you read. 

It's not just with those mission. The heritic geth can be seen the same way. Didn't we rewrite them to thing differently in ME2.
What did Legion say about them?

He said the heritic geth only wants to destroy organics because there gods demand it. This is the very concept of an Ai destroying based on being command to do so.

also the geth are not dominated by the reapers some chose to join them  and fight the organics where as some did not if the geth were being dominated or had been indoctrinated all the geth would serve the reapers. there fore the heretics aggression is in part do to their freewill. so they can be used as examples for organics versus synthetics.

No, the hertic simply allow themselve to be tools. They are still doing so because they are commanded so. They arn't doing this out of spite of organics but of want of the reapers advancement. They can be used as examples.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

The plot and story of ME3 are fine...It just the ending people has problems with.

ME3 killed ME2, the fact that the most important choice in the game becomes irrelevant is proof enough.

[alberto4395]

CronoDragoon wrote...

alberto4395 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
 Every other time the Reapers are referred to as "Reapers," which are differentiated from your run-of-the-mill synthetics by the fact that they're a fusion of Organic and Synthetic (see the Reaper-nator in ME2).

They're a fusion because synthetics(or organics enslaved by synthetics) killed a crapload of organics, made slushies out of them, and injected the slush like heroin into the fetus machines they were making. Not exactly evidence against the synthetic/organic conflict theme.

You don't understand. The Reapers cannot be used to support organics vs synthetics because they aren't the synthetics in that. The reapers actions are not the synthetics actions.

I'm not talking about the Catalyst, if that's what you think. The Catalyst excludes Reapers from his version of the synthetic/organic conflict, but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about synthetic/organic conflict as a theme of the series. It's clearly been there from the beginning, and the fact that Reapers injected organic matter into themselves to make them "hybrids" doesn't suddenly make it otherwise. 

 I was talking about the main theme like the one used in the ending which is what this thread is about. I am sorry I wasn't clear on what I meant.

[Bill Casey]

It has to do with a lot, since the Reapers are directly responsible for the actions of the Heretics, the Rannoch Geth and the Zha Til...

[Mr Powers94]

[/quote]
also the geth are not dominated by the reapers some chose to join them  and fight the organics where as some did not if the geth were being dominated or had been indoctrinated all the geth would serve the reapers. there fore the heretics aggression is in part do to their freewill. so they can be used as examples for organics versus synthetics.
[/quote]
No, the hertic simply allow themselve to be tools. They are still doing so because they are commanded so. They arn't doing this out of spite of organics but of want of the reapers advancement. They can be used as examples.

[/quote]
im confused are you refuting my argument or supporting my conclusion but just with a different initial argument?

[dreman9999]

Psychlonus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

Until the last 10 minutes, I always thought the synthetic vs organic thing was just one of many constructs put there to create moral dilemmas for the player. The unique bit with Mass Effect AI is the exposition that AI are self-aware. And the only thing such exposition creates is the moral dilemma of AI being a race. I thought having a Geth and EDI as squaddies was just put there to further that point: don't be a racist, they're just like everyone else. Then in the last 10 minutes we are told that no, that race isn't just like any other race...

That isn't what was shown about them at all. It's not to not be racist, it to understand them. ME2 and ME3 took the time to show the difference of synthetics form organics, but through understanding we can get along. The ending just show the biggest fault synthetic have, they just do what they are programed to do and can only be free if they cwn rewrite their own programing. And they are just as dangerous shackled as then unshackled....Even worst shackled because the don't have the freedom to stop themselves.

The last 10 minutes shows that being a paragon in this particular moral dilemma was pointless all along. If you accept what you are told about the technological singularity, genocide is the only choice--it's not a dilemma. But up until the last 10 minutes, the story arc was presented as a moral dilemma.

No that is not it at all. The very idea of destroy is the concept of losses for the greater good. If you accept what your told by the starchild, you would feel that detroy would be point less because the conflict would come back, not feel being a paragon is pointless. Add, being renagade or pragon is irrelivent, it's about getting the bast results. Ether path can do that.

[Bill Casey]

The Heretics believed the Reapers were gods...
So the Reapers told them to attack organics...


You know, instead of telling them not to do that...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:10 .

[Mr Powers94]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Heretics believed the Reapers were gods...
So the Reapers told them to attack organics...


You know, instead of telling them not to...

some attacked some didnt but they made the choice to attack not the reapers therfore they can be used as examples of synthetics vs organics

[dreman9999]

@Mr Powers94 ...

Allowing themselves to be tools is still letting the reapers dominate them. They are forgoing their free will.

[mauro2222]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Heretics believed the Reapers were gods...
So the Reapers told them to attack organics...


You know, instead of telling them not to do that...

All hail the big squid!

[alberto4395]

[quote]Mr Powers94 wrote...

[/quote]
also the geth are not dominated by the reapers some chose to join them  and fight the organics where as some did not if the geth were being dominated or had been indoctrinated all the geth would serve the reapers. there fore the heretics aggression is in part do to their freewill. so they can be used as examples for organics versus synthetics.
[/quote]
No, the hertic simply allow themselve to be tools. They are still doing so because they are commanded so. They arn't doing this out of spite of organics but of want of the reapers advancement. They can be used as examples.

[/quote]
im confused are you refuting my argument or supporting my conclusion but just with a different initial argument?

[/quote]
Dominated or not by the reapers is irrelevant (they were indoctrinated the moment they joined though).
Reaper interference prevents that from being used as evidence.

[Bill Casey]

Nope...
It's the Reapers orchestrating it...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:12 .

[dreman9999]

Mr Powers94 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The Heretics believed the Reapers were gods...
So the Reapers told them to attack organics...


You know, instead of telling them not to...

some attacked some didnt but they made the choice to attack not the reapers therfore they can be used as examples of synthetics vs organics

Excapt for the fact that they are synthetics and they are allowing the reapers to use them as tools.

[Psychlonus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

Until the last 10 minutes, I always thought the synthetic vs organic thing was just one of many constructs put there to create moral dilemmas for the player. The unique bit with Mass Effect AI is the exposition that AI are self-aware. And the only thing such exposition creates is the moral dilemma of AI being a race. I thought having a Geth and EDI as squaddies was just put there to further that point: don't be a racist, they're just like everyone else. Then in the last 10 minutes we are told that no, that race isn't just like any other race...

That isn't what was shown about them at all. It's not to not be racist, it to understand them. ME2 and ME3 took the time to show the difference of synthetics form organics, but through understanding we can get along. The ending just show the biggest fault synthetic have, they just do what they are programed to do and can only be free if they cwn rewrite their own programing. And they are just as dangerous shackled as then unshackled....Even worst shackled because the don't have the freedom to stop themselves.

The last 10 minutes shows that being a paragon in this particular moral dilemma was pointless all along. If you accept what you are told about the technological singularity, genocide is the only choice--it's not a dilemma. But up until the last 10 minutes, the story arc was presented as a moral dilemma.

No that is not it at all. The very idea of destroy is the concept of losses for the greater good. If you accept what your told by the starchild, you would feel that detroy would be point less because the conflict would come back, not feel being a paragon is pointless. Add, being renagade or pragon is irrelivent, it's about getting the bast results. Ether path can do that.

Up unti the last 10 minutes, co-existence was with synthetics was a rational moral goal. Then you get enlightened...

[dreman9999]

@]alberto4395 
The reapers are an example in themselve. They are example of Shackled AI cause destruction to organics.

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[Mr Powers94]

dreman9999 wrote...

@Mr Powers94 ...

Allowing themselves to be tools is still letting the reapers dominate them. They are forgoing their free will.

but because their are geth that are not used as the reapers tools the geth have total free will as well the geth are not truly dominated until ME 3 where all geth are being directly contolled by the reapers. remember that whole plot line wher you hade to take out the reaper on rannoch. the heretics where not controlled in such a way or their would have been no heretics.

[CronoDragoon]

alberto4395 wrote...


 I was talking about the main theme like the one used in the ending which is what this thread is about. I am sorry I wasn't clear on what I meant.

Okay, I think the disconnect here is that you believe when we speak of synthetic/organic conflict, you believe we are speaking specifically of the synthetic/organic conflict as the Catalyst defines it, which of course to him excludes the Reapers. Narratively, in looking at the series, we cannot exclude the Reapers, because they are set up as a race of machines doing horrible/nasty things to organics because they are organics. From the start the Reapers were set up to be killer machines out to get organics. That the Catalyst reframes the problem into his specific mode of examining the synthetic/organic problem does not mean that any synthetic/organic conflict earlier in the series is suddenly not contributing to the theme purely because it is outside his prism.

[Bill Casey]

Reading through the indoctrinated Dr. Quian's research, Saren believed he could use Sovereign as a tool to control the Geth. He succeeded with the Heretics...

[Bill Casey]

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

[Mr Powers94]

Bill Casey wrote...

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

agreed

[dreman9999]

Psychlonus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

Until the last 10 minutes, I always thought the synthetic vs organic thing was just one of many constructs put there to create moral dilemmas for the player. The unique bit with Mass Effect AI is the exposition that AI are self-aware. And the only thing such exposition creates is the moral dilemma of AI being a race. I thought having a Geth and EDI as squaddies was just put there to further that point: don't be a racist, they're just like everyone else. Then in the last 10 minutes we are told that no, that race isn't just like any other race...

That isn't what was shown about them at all. It's not to not be racist, it to understand them. ME2 and ME3 took the time to show the difference of synthetics form organics, but through understanding we can get along. The ending just show the biggest fault synthetic have, they just do what they are programed to do and can only be free if they cwn rewrite their own programing. And they are just as dangerous shackled as then unshackled....Even worst shackled because the don't have the freedom to stop themselves.

The last 10 minutes shows that being a paragon in this particular moral dilemma was pointless all along. If you accept what you are told about the technological singularity, genocide is the only choice--it's not a dilemma. But up until the last 10 minutes, the story arc was presented as a moral dilemma.

No that is not it at all. The very idea of destroy is the concept of losses for the greater good. If you accept what your told by the starchild, you would feel that detroy would be point less because the conflict would come back, not feel being a paragon is pointless. Add, being renagade or pragon is irrelivent, it's about getting the bast results. Ether path can do that.

Up unti the last 10 minutes, co-existence was with synthetics was a rational moral goal. Then you get enlightened...

Nothing in the end of mass effect say that co-existene with synthetics is not a rational moral goal. The problem is that the weapon you have in hand and the fact the machine you are fight are way too restrictive. The reapers are just doing what they are programed to do and the crucible was made by a bunch of AI hating organics.
That does n't mean co-exsistece is not possible. It jut means the being that cause the problem and the other beings that are giving you the salutio tothe problem are too unflexible to allow any other results.

[alberto4395]

dreman9999 wrote...

@]alberto4395 
The reapers are an example in themselve. They are example of Shackled AI cause destruction to organics.

The reapers are not part of the organic-synthetic "conflict". Even if that was the theme the reapers are not part of creating that problem.

[Bill Casey]

As the collective embodiment of the intelligence of the reapers, The Catalyst itself ceased to be a synthetic entity eons ago...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[CronoDragoon]

Bill Casey wrote...

The reapers are not synthetics...
They are Synthesis...

They are, at best, a failed Synthesis. The Catalyst says himself that Synthesis cannot be forced; the Reapers clearly were. 

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The plot and story of ME3 are fine...It just the ending people has problems with.

ME3 killed ME2, the fact that the most important choice in the game becomes irrelevant is proof enough.

No, it didn't bacome irrlivent.Your just given more then one path in getting a result.