107 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

To me, one of the best parts of D&D 4th Edition was the optional rule in Dungeon Master Guide 2 that gave you the maths to remove levels from items completely while still keeping the game in the same mechanics and number ranges. Essentially, your weapon became more accurate and more powerful as you levelled up, and if you handed the weapon to a peasant, the sword would be far worse in the peasant's hand.

Doesn't really make sense if you consider the numbers themselves to be holy grails, of course. But it was very nice for my fighter to continue using the ceremonial sword she was given upon graduation from her academy throughout the entire campaign. That sword had a soul to me =)

This is very similar to the items in DA2 that improved with your level. To me, this is a great feature, since if I find myself entranced by a certain weapon (looks, history, abilities or all of the above), I can keep it as that one weapon I associate with my character. It's my Frej's Skrepp, my Gourry's Gorun Nova and my Arthur's Excalibur.

Do you all think this takes away too much from the loot aspect of the game, is it a pretty cool idea or do you not care much either way since you see an equal amount of pros and cons either way? =)

[FeralEwok]

From just an aesthetic level I'd like to be able to scale weapons or armor. Usually I prefer a certain look for a character and the weapon of choice is a big factor. I'd hate to have to give something up for a bow or sword that looks ridiculous or not fitting simply because it has better stats.

I can't really comment on whether or not it takes away too much from the loot aspect of the game. If I came across something I like later on then I'd use that instead. No need to force a person to use items they don't want.

[Reznore57]

I liked that in DA2 DLC.
Usually stats and loots bores me ...
It could be only for pieces of loot that are hard to get , and they could have a special look (nothing generic).

[Wulfram]

I downloaded a mod that does this. 'tis awesome. Since the items do tend to get more powers as the game goes on, there's still some progression, and you still find some items that make you think "cool". But you're not forced to dump your items, because the weapons will still do decent damage and the armour doesn't turn into tissue paper after a few levels.

Ideally I think I'd be inclined just to tone down the disparity in power between high and low level items to something less massive, rather than removing it entirely.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I really don't like this. I fully support having a character grow more skilled with a weapon, but a better weapon should be a better weapon. Both the character and the weapons should progress.

If you want all weapons to have stats based on the level of the wielder, then just have all weapons have static stats with no power variation between them and have all of the improvement come from the character.

You can achieve the same gameplay result without breaking the setting.

[Kidd]

FeralEwok wrote...

Usually I prefer a certain look for a character and the weapon of choice is a big factor. I'd hate to have to give something up for a bow or sword that looks ridiculous or not fitting simply because it has better stats.

Tell me about it. I wish I could've kept my Mage!Hawke in Spiral Eye gear the entire game =) Sadly, act1 gear does not work very well even in mid-act2 =(

Reznore57 wrote...

I liked that in DA2 DLC.
Usually stats and loots bores me ...
It could be only for pieces of loot that are hard to get , and they could have a special look (nothing generic).

Problem with not having it as a universal thing is that this is such a subjective thing. Even if there are two other daggers that look the same, perhaps I like these ones with fire damage and I love the model - but just because two other daggers share that model, neither of the three improves with level.

Of course, making it a valued attribute of the item itself might be interesting as well. "Oh wow I totally found one of these awesome things that scale with my level, woohoo! =D" etc ^^

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you want all weapons to have stats based on the level of the wielder, then just have all weapons have static stats with no power variation between them and have all of the improvement come from the character.

Indeed I would not mind this one bit (you're talking base stats, right? I still think it'd be nice to have weapons that actually do different things such as magical effects and whatnot). I think getting the improve by level thing is more likely though since a lot of people seem to like numbers that go up a lot as they get more powerful =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I really don't like this. I fully support having a character grow more skilled with a weapon, but a better weapon should be a better weapon. Both the character and the weapons should progress.

If you want all weapons to have stats based on the level of the wielder, then just have all weapons have static stats with no power variation between them and have all of the improvement come from the character.

You can achieve the same gameplay result without breaking the setting.

If everything scales with level, then it doesn't break the setting.  It's then clearly a natural result of improving skill.

Thoiugh you are right that it's kind of a roundabout way to get to the same outcome as having all weapons have the same static power level.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I really don't like this. I fully support having a character grow more skilled with a weapon, but a better weapon should be a better weapon. Both the character and the weapons should progress.

If you want all weapons to have stats based on the level of the wielder, then just have all weapons have static stats with no power variation between them and have all of the improvement come from the character.

You can achieve the same gameplay result without breaking the setting.

If everything scales with level, then it doesn't break the setting.  It's then clearly a natural result of improving skill.

Then it should be represented as such.  Having the mechanics tell me the weapon gets better means the weapon gets better.  Having the numbers tell me that the character gets better means the character gets better.

I accept no level of gameplay/story segregation.

Though you are right that it's kind of a roundabout way to get to the same outcome as having all weapons have the same static power level.

Exactly.  If you can acheieve the same result without breaking the setting, why break the setting?

And personally, I'd love to see a game without magical weapons, or with a much smaller variation between weapons.  I liked how a +1 sword in AD&D was a rare item.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you want all weapons to have stats based on the level of the wielder, then just have all weapons have static stats with no power variation between them and have all of the improvement come from the character.

Indeed I would not mind this one bit (you're talking base stats, right? I still think it'd be nice to have weapons that actually do different things such as magical effects and whatnot). I think getting the improve by level thing is more likely though since a lot of people seem to like numbers that go up a lot as they get more powerful =)

You can put those big numbers on the character rather than on the weapon.  Everyone still gets big numbers, but no crimes against logic are committed.

As long as those big numbers are universal.  I shouldn't be doing 400x as much damage as boss-level opponents do.

[Hathur]

I'm a fan of this idea -- I tend to equip my character(s) in a game based on aesthetic look rather than statistical values... I.e. in mass effect 3 I played with the armor pieces I liked the most visually, rather than what gave me the most useful boosts.

Same thing in DAO and DA2, I used the prettiest armor rather than the "Best".

Though I may be in a minority here.. I know the loot collection aspect of a game can be a strong draw / appeal.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Hathur wrote...

I'm a fan of this idea -- I tend to equip my character(s) in a game based on aesthetic look rather than statistical values... I.e. in mass effect 3 I played with the armor pieces I liked the most visually, rather than what gave me the most useful boosts.

Same thing in DAO and DA2, I used the prettiest armor rather than the "Best".

Though I may be in a minority here.. I know the loot collection aspect of a game can be a strong draw / appeal.

I personally like the idea of having a trade-off between the look and the stats.  It creates interesting roleplaying opportunities, where I can have a character decide to be a less effective team member to avoid looking like a dork.  This might annoy the other party members and create intraparty friction.  That's drama.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .

[SunTzuz]

Forget scaling altogether. Fix level weapons, character, npc
My murder knife should be enough to finish the game also with a leveled character and party.
a +1 murder knife should be rare too

Modifié par SunTzuz, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .

[Wulfram]

Isn't the logical outcome of this line of thought a more Mass Effect style of equipment?

I mean, if there's no more straightforward progression, then there's a lot less reason to keep dishing out similar or identical weapons, just for them to be flogged to the nearest merchant. So better to go to a strictly limited arsenal of unique items.

[MrDbow]

Hathur wrote...

I'm a fan of this idea -- I tend to equip my character(s) in a game based on aesthetic look rather than statistical values... I.e. in mass effect 3 I played with the armor pieces I liked the most visually, rather than what gave me the most useful boosts.

Same thing in DAO and DA2, I used the prettiest armor rather than the "Best".

Though I may be in a minority here.. I know the loot collection aspect of a game can be a strong draw / appeal.

I, too, like to look pretty...





... what?

[Provi-dance]

Horrible idea.
Items and monsters should not scale with the player's level.

When I hear "scaling" in the context of RPGs I get an immediate nausea.

[Kidd]

Wulfram wrote...

Isn't the logical outcome of this line of thought a more Mass Effect style of equipment?

I mean, if there's no more straightforward progression, then there's a lot less reason to keep dishing out similar or identical weapons, just for them to be flogged to the nearest merchant. So better to go to a strictly limited arsenal of unique items.

It is more or less a pretty Mass Effect style equipment system, yes. I happen to really like the idea behind the ME inventory, too. Lots of viable gear instead of just those few top tier items if you care about the numbers, lots of looks to choose from without running the risk of having a useless character.

I doubt they'd dare to go there with DA3 though considering how much DA2 was mockingly called Dragon Effect. They'll want to show off as much of a DAO-esque inventory screen as possible, methinks.

[Tokion]

I never liked the 'tier' system in dragon age. It felt too much like WoW and MMORPG, which makes previous tier redundant as soon as a new tier of loot are visible.

Loots should be more epic where it may last you through the game. I still have firm memories of getting my hands on the Crom Faeyr in BG2, or that hilarious 2 handed sword that can talk. Now those are the types of weapon I like to see in DA3!

Modifié par Tokion, 10 juillet 2012 - 11:16 .

[philippe willaume]

It king of cool to have you old trusted sword and armour.
So i have to say that I kind of liked it in DA:2

And i like the idea of getting better at using a weapon but if that is the then it should be the charcter bonus /perks that makes the weapon better not the weapon in itself
(i.e. something like a familiarity bonus)

[Direwolf0294]

I wouldn't mind scaling weapons. Adding some weapons with unique looks and history that your character can use throughout the whole game would be cool. I care more about the visual aspect of items and my character than any sort of stats and I hate it when I've got a really cool looking piece of gear that I can no longer use because its stats are bad and I've advanced to a place in the game where I can no longer get away with having bad stats. Of course, adding an appearance tab to the game would also solve this issue.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would totally get behind a familiarity bonus mentioned above. Having skill with blades is one thing. Having intimate knowledge of exactly how a blade feels, is balanced, moves and reacts to blows would be a different set of information altogether. A rapier and a scimitar are both one handed swords, but have entirely different feels.

If the longer we used a weapon, the bigger skill or damage bonus we received, I would be totally fine with this. I think it Sten's Asapa, for instance, would have had such a bonus, it would have made it a viable weapon for him outside of RP reasons.

[Jonathan Seagull]

I don't think I'd want the majority of things to scale with your level, but I am completely for being able to keep your own sort of "trademark" weapon. What I'd really like to see is something in the same vein as the Hawke's Key or Vigilance, taken a step further.

At some point in the game, we'd have the ability to craft a fully customizable weapon. We can decide what type of weapon it is (crossbow, dagger, staff, etc.); we'd be able to add effects to it (e.g cold damage, armor penetration); and finally we would be able to name it. And this weapon -- this icy, unnaturally sharp dagger called Snowflake -- would improve with our level.

Aside from that, I'd also like to see a few genuinely unique items scattered around, rather than just weapons with a slightly higher attack value and different standard bonuses. Maybe they have unique abilities that can't be found anywhere else (like a staff that can raise undead or an amulet that can control low-level darkspawn). Of course these things would have to be difficult to acquire.

[wowpwnslol]

No. It removes the challenge of upgrading your gear with every level. Go play final fantasy if you don't want to work to gear up your character.

[Amycus89]

Although I too have had some favorite weapons of "symbolic reasons" (in DA:O I even kept my first weapon in the inventory throughout the whole adventure), I really, really hate having weapons scale with level. Gameplay wise, it really ruins the fun.

However, if one really does like to use a certain sword throughout the whole game, wouldn't it be better to use crafting to combine the stats and looks from different items? I thhink I have written this before, but here goes again:

Take one shiny new sword you like with crappy stats(sword 1), and another ugly looking one with great stats(sword 2). Put them both in the crafting oven to combine the best parts into sword 3, a sword with the same looks as sword 1, and the same stats as sword 2.

[Xerxes52]

While I liked the fixed tier system from DA:O, I definitely enjoyed having leveling weapons and items in DA2.


I'd support something like that, but I think that it should be your level and applicable attributes that determine how much more damage a weapon does.

For example: An Iron Longsword that does 7 base damage at level 1 should still do 7 base damage at level 50, but you would have additional modifiers added based on level, class, and, in the case of Longswords, STR. Bows and Daggers would be DEX. Staves would be based on Magic.

Basically it's you, the player that is getting better, rather than the weapon.

Modifié par Xerxes52, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Don't like the idea of weapon scaling according to level.

But I'll suggest another way to keep weapons useful for long periods of time - what about having weapons gain in strength according to the deeds you do with it/people you kill with appropriate bonuses?

It'd be like forging the story of a magical/epic weapon/armor. The greater the deed, the more it grows in stature. By the end of the game, you'd have this legendary weapon that has stats according to the specific deeds you carried out with it (either get the last hit, or do x% damage to it). For example, slaying a Dragon would yield a different bonus to killing a Bandit Lord.

The other, easier and more logical method, would simply be to reduce the magnitude of the power curve for progression in the game. It means you won't be killing dozens of mooks at once who used to be difficult mini-bosses 10 hours ago, but it does mean that weapons are more viable for long term use.

Would also help in making magical items suitably epic, since there isn't inherently an EPICER magical item in the next Act that makes the supposedly anciently epic item you're currently carrying redundant.