107 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

The problem with scaling is that it removes the sense of player progression, as well as being hard to reconcile with the lore. Even with the gated encounters approach DAO took, once someone knows the game mechanics they could go straight from Ostagar to Orzammar and finish that questline by about level 10. When I remember reading that Orzammar was designed to be initiated ~ level 14-16.

That's the world scaling with you in general, but weapons scaling would be equally as bad. Why if I go from level 10 to 11, does my steel sword now do 2 more damage. I didn't get any talent points in the appropriate tree (read: training with the weapon) and the weapon hasn't been improved at all. So why does it suddenly do more damage?

There is no heavy grinding in DA to get new gear, you just go to a vendor or do a quest. So I don't see the need for weapons to scale with level.

[Urzon]

Maybe not all weapons. I would personally prefer only story related weapons scaling, much like Bianca. Your PC and all companions get a story related weapon during their personally storyline, which might or might not be better than the weapons given for their current level.

Because if all weapons did scale, i would try my hardest to complete the whole game with a joke weapon: wooden toy sword, rough wooden chopstick, metal rod, plank, etc.

Modifié par Urzon, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:59 .

[TonberryFeye]

A friend of mine brought up something like this about his playthrough of Origins:

He played a human noble, and found the Cousland blade. This was a sword he rescued from his family home as it burned, whilst fleeing the sight of his parent's murder. This was a weapon that, in his mind, should have been used by the player through the whole game and ultimately buried through the heart of Arl Howe... yet everyone either sells the thing in a heartbeat because it's so quickly rendered worthless, or it's thrown into a storage chest and never comes out again.

I would like to see the option for certain weapons, suits of armour or other significant items to level with the player. However, I have some caveats for how I feel it should be applied:

1) It is not compulsory. A player should never be forced to use these 'scaling' weapons, and could perhaps miss them entirely.
2) Not everyone gets them. Only the Human Noble has the family sword. Only the Dwarf Noble has the ancestral shield. There needs to be a reason our character places such importance on this item, and I'd rather a character not have one at all than have it clumsily shoehorned in.
3) The weapon should not be the 'best' weapon, but it should always be worth using at any level. Same with shields or armour or whatever else.

[Provi-dance]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The easiest and most reliastic way to fix te problem of scaling...is to not have scaling.

 

Quite simple, really.

Now, I do like weapons (and enemies) of vastly different power, i.e. variability, but in no way tied/scaled to my PC's level.

[Plaintiff]

wowpwnslol wrote...

No. It removes the challenge of upgrading your gear with every level. Go play final fantasy if you don't want to work to gear up your character.

How is equipping new gear a "challenge"?

I support anything that reduces the pointless busywork that is present in so many RPGs.

[AkiKishi]

Urzon wrote...

Maybe not all weapons. I would personally prefer only story related weapons scaling, much like Bianca. Your PC and all companions get a story related weapon during their personally storyline, which might or might not be better than the weapons given for their current level.

Because if all weapons did scale, i would try my hardest to complete the whole game with a joke weapon: wooden toy sword, rough wooden chopstick, metal rod, plank, etc.

Star Ocean 3 one of the challenges is to complete the game using the metal pipe you get at the start. Star Ocean 3 does not scale.

[Saphean71]

Got all the weapon/armour packs when they came out and used them for every Hawke I made (and believe me that's a lot). Now i'm bored with all my Hawkes basically looking the same and don't use the stuff any more. If they did the same thing for DA3 i'd still get them just to see what they looked like and what they did (stats or special damage etc.), but I prefer to have a choice in what equipment I use so stick to DA2 idea - 'normal' stuff and 'special' stuff.

[Sylvius the Mad]

wowpwnslol wrote...

True from RPG perspective. However, mechanically, the D&D rules dictate a +1 enhancement for every 4 levels, which means a level 20 character can expect to wield a weapon of +5 enhancement. Anything less and you are pretty much running a campaign based on house rules. A party cannot survive encounters without magic items appropriate for their level.

But those level 20 characters were extremely uncommon.  Most characters don't live to see level 5, let alone level  20.

Since that's not how these CRPGs work, that's not how their loot should work.

[bzombo]

Please no. I hated leveling weapons in DA2. It's one of my most hated things about the game, right up there with the re-used maps/dungeons.

[Maclimes]

bzombo wrote...

Please no. I hated leveling weapons in DA2. It's one of my most hated things about the game, right up there with the re-used maps/dungeons.

Why such hate for that one relatively-minor aspect of the game? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just curious.

[PsychoBlonde]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As long as those big numbers are universal.  I shouldn't be doing 400x as much damage as boss-level opponents do.

Or have 1/100th their health.

[PsychoBlonde]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

That sounds neat. A problem with it however would be that there indeed would only be a set or two to choose from. Not a whole lot of gear to customise the character with (aesthetics and build alike).

Um, the whole point of this would be for people who DON'T CARE ABOUT CUSTOMIZING THEIR GEAR, they just want to play.  They can slap the set on and go.  Why would they THEN be complaining that the lack customization?  The lack of customization is the SOLUTION to their problem.

I can see that there might be people who want esthetic customization but don't want to micromanage gear.  All righty then, just detach appearance from stats.  Put in a system whereby people can customize the appearance of their gear independently of what that gear does.

Solves 3 problems.  You have leveling gear for people who hate to micromanage gear.  You have esthetic customization for people who want that.  And you have unique gear for people who want THAT.  Nobody is bound to playing in a way they don't like in order to get the aspects they DO like.

[Kidd]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Um, the whole point of this would be for people who DON'T CARE ABOUT CUSTOMIZING THEIR GEAR, they just want to play.  They can slap the set on and go.  Why would they THEN be complaining that the lack customization?  The lack of customization is the SOLUTION to their problem.

Not really. If I want to use fire damage on my sword and I have a sword that deals fire damage, then I may want to keep that weapon. Whether for aesthetics or the idea of dealing fire damage, it doesn't matter.

In DAO/DA2 though, I will be forced to switch out my fire damage sword sooner or later because swords found earlier in the game are worse than the swords found later. There is a chance I will find another fire sword with a higher damage rating, yes. But likely, it will have something else on it. But staying with my old fire sword isn't really an option since I won't be able to kill things very well.

So I'll have to pick up whatever sword I find because from an objective stand point, it is simply the better weapon. The choice isn't whether I want X or Y, it's whether I want to stick with a suboptimal build or a better one.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I can see that there might be people who want esthetic customization but don't want to micromanage gear.  All righty then, just detach appearance from stats.  Put in a system whereby people can customize the appearance of their gear independently of what that gear does.

I would welcome this addition, certainly. Something like Everquest 2 where you have separate "appearance slots," or Aion's ability to overwrite an item's looks with that of another's.

[Darth_Trethon]

Even if they do that, which I seriously doubt, the further you go into the game the more powerful the new loot will be so that even when comparing two items of the same "level" the newfound one will generally be better in terms of stats.

[Wulfram]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Even if they do that, which I seriously doubt, the further you go into the game the more powerful the new loot will be so that even when comparing two items of the same "level" the newfound one will generally be better in terms of stats.

True, but you'd still be able to use the old gear with some degree of efficacy, even if you're still not quite optimal.

And the new gear you'd be switching in would be better in a more interesting way that just having bigger numbers.

[bzombo]

bzombo wrote...

Please no. I hated leveling weapons in DA2. It's one of my most hated things about the game, right up there with the re-used maps/dungeons.

It takes away from the usefulness of finding new gear. If my weapon levels with me, then why do I care about finding that new powerful weapon? My weapon continues to be powerful no matter what. To me, it's more than just leveling weapons. It has additional effects not readily apparent on the surface.

[Gebert]

Not really too keen on weapons scaling with you. However, I would like it if weapons had more... realistic stats. An iron sword should be viable to wield at all stages of the game, but an "epic" sword will have special bonuses, trade-offs, etc.

An example:

Iron Sword:
12-18 damage
1,2% crit chance
89 speed

The Scavenger's Edge:
7-24 damage
2,1% crit chance
82 speed
+5% money looted

Oh, and I'd also like weapons need only realistic stats for wielding, no "oh, this sword is slightly smaller than the one you are currently using, but since it is made for chars ten levels above you you aren't able to wield it". If that made any sense...

Modifié par Gebert, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:57 .

[Androme]

Weapon A is available at lvl 2, it scales with each level the charater gains thereafter, Weapon B is available at lvl 4, it's naturally stronger than Weapon A, and scales aswell.

That would work and is the only way I'd have it.

[Elvis_Mazur]

I like your idea. It certainly adds to the RP aspect

[bzombo]

If we're going to bring out the realism card, then scaling makes even less sense. Swords do not "gain experience". They do the same damage. Bonuses from the wielder's skill change, but not the weapon itself. That's a big issue I have.

[Kileyan]

Swords that gain power as you level should have some magical reason, not just a gimmick to encourage people to buy the super special pre-order editions and ensure their bought magic items stay relevant.

I enjoy the idea of soul stealing swords that gain power, but Dragon Ages isn't that kind of game. They are trying to stay a low magic world that doesn't have tons of sentient swords and what not.

Really I dislike this mechanism, the item part of the game is already getting a bit bland with DAII, we don't need to encourage Bioware. Items that grow with the characters will just encourage no thought at all in interesting varied magic items, remove chances of finding old relics of great power, it will trend this series more towards Mass Effect with Swords.

I don't mean that the devs don't want to include interesting powerful lore filled magic items, I just mean that we get the Bioware spiel about dev time, crunch time and cutting of features each game they produce. The idea of a single sword being used throughout the whole game, will eventually lead to the dev's saying they had to cut many items and treasure systems out of the game due to time...........after all why do you need 35 swords in the game, the one you started with is still good!.......and we will include a few gems or dialogs that let you customize it!

[Direwolf0294]

Also worth mentioning on the subject of weapon scaling, I hope they tone down the actual size of weapons in DA3. They were just way, way too big in DA2. 2h swords in particular looked really stupid.

[AkiKishi]

bzombo wrote...

If we're going to bring out the realism card, then scaling makes even less sense. Swords do not "gain experience". They do the same damage. Bonuses from the wielder's skill change, but not the weapon itself. That's a big issue I have.

It's all abstracted anyway. The weapon growing with you is just like a familiarty bonus rather than a physical change.

If the weapon gains +5 damage and a 1% chance to critical. It's just that you know how to use it better than you did.
While I can think of plenty of games where you had growth in a weapon catagory, I can't think of one off hand that rewarded you for keeping the same weapon. Only the same type of weapon.

[Direwolf0294]

bzombo wrote...

If we're going to bring out the realism card, then scaling makes even less sense. Swords do not "gain experience". They do the same damage. Bonuses from the wielder's skill change, but not the weapon itself. That's a big issue I have.

Weapons don't have stats either, so constantly replacing them so you can do more damage doesn't make sense.
Yes, there'll be a different quality in gear, but once you get a decent quality weapon your not going to be replacing it any time soon. So going by that, weapon scaling actually helps keep realism.

[Giltspur]

I like for their to be decisions and consequences around any element of gameplay, including weapon choices.  So it depends on how the scaling weapons fit in with the game.

If you simply having scaling weapons, then you run the risk of weapons being merely aesthetic.  Some might like that.  But I'm speaking for myself in this post not...the masses. I don't want a weapon to be merely aesthetic.

In books and movies though you don't see the characters upgrading their swords and such left and right.

So how do you add leveled weapons into a game in a way that's cool?

Well, different weapons could feel different when used.  The guns in Mass Effect 2 and 3 have this already.  They're situational.  So that's a start.  You're focusing on what works more than what has bigger numbers.  It's a way of saying "There' can be more to gaming than the sort of math I can write out on a piece of paper or see on a character sheet."  Then again I do like character sheets.  So antoher way to keep some decisions around leveled weapons is to have you think about what weapon interacts better with your stats or perks or abilities or whatever.  So maybe the weapon you find late in the game isn't really "better" than your leveled weapon earlier in the game.  But it might be better for your build or for perks you have now but didn't have then.  It's features might compensate for some weaknesses you have.  Something like that.