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[Maclimes]

Giltspur wrote...

In books and movies though you don't see the characters upgrading their swords and such left and right.

This. Bilbo Baggins, for example, gains Sting early on in the Hobbit, and never replaces the weapon. His nephew then uses the same weapon from the very beginning of his journey to the very end.

I think a better way to represent that is not through "Weapon Scaling", per se, but through innate skills and abilities.

For example, Sting might be "Shortsword, Does +10% damage vs. Goblinkind, Critical Chance +5%". The damage number is not there, because the damage is calculated by Bilbo/Frodo's "Shortsword Damage" statistic, whatever that may be. So he can use the same sword from beginning to end. It creates a nice visual and cinematic consistency.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maclimes wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

In books and movies though you don't see the characters upgrading their swords and such left and right.

This. Bilbo Baggins, for example, gains Sting early on in the Hobbit, and never replaces the weapon. His nephew then uses the same weapon from the very beginning of his journey to the very end.

He also uses the sword in EXACTLY ONE FIGHT, against the spiders.  Shall we emulate that as well?

[Maclimes]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

He also uses the sword in EXACTLY ONE FIGHT, against the spiders.  Shall we emulate that as well?

If the story is as well-crafted, with brilliant writing and lots of opportunities to make important decisions and choices? Sure. Combat is not a requirement of an RPG (although it is a staple).

BUT, I get your point. However, it does seem to lose a certain amount of ... something ... when you are continually replacing armor and weapons. They become disposable, like healing potions. It would be cool to have your gear actually mean something, beyond simply "Ooh, this has a slightly higher DPS!"

[Swordfishtrombone]

CrustyBot wrote...

Don't like the idea of weapon scaling according to level.

But I'll suggest another way to keep weapons useful for long periods of time - what about having weapons gain in strength according to the deeds you do with it/people you kill with appropriate bonuses?

This is a good idea, I think - don't know if it's been suggested already (as I didn't read the whole thread), but what I'm thinking is another idea:

How about there being certain locations in the world, like a master smith, or enchanter, who can upgrade any weapon, for a fee, or as a reward for doing a quest? More upgrade options would become available as you progress in level, so you could, if you so chose to, keep the same weapon all through the game, just making use of these upgrades.

At the same time, you could still find level-appropriate new loot, just like in DA:O or DA2. Thus you could have the two systems co-existing, alowing both those that liked to hold on to a particular weapon, and those that liked to switch to newly discovered weapons, to do it their way.

[Nerdage]

The only reason I liked the scaling items in DA2 was because finding new items wasn't fun for me in the least. I think the reason was that there were too many enchanted items all over the place, makes it hard to keep track of who's using what, so when you find yet another enchanted sword under some rubble you have to check it against whoever can use it, which is a pain in itself when there's no one place to see everyone's gear, so keeping everyone geared (even characters you don't want to use, because you never know when you won't be able to not use them) is just too much like hard work.

Some way of keeping older items viable statistically for the look or rp reasons or whatever might be nice, but having the stats just improve every time the player levels seems like a crude way to do it. To be honest, I'd prefer if item effectiveness didn't have to increase so drastically as you level up, if the items that were amazing half way through the game stay amazing until the end of the game, instead of having to trade up because you've effectively out-leveled your gear. Having all the items scale with level might be one way to do that, but I'd think it'd be better if the player's stats just didn't diminish with level, so a given stat bonus is as effective at the start of the game as it is at the end.

Also, give all weapons enchantment slots, and have existing enchantments on found weapons take up their enchantment slots. So instead of only the uber enchanted items having enchantment slots, making the unenchanted items doubly useless, the uber enchanted items probably wouldn't have any slots (since they're full with the existing enchantment), and then you could take whatever average item and enchant it to make it almost as good.

[wowpwnslol]

In books and movies though you don't see the characters upgrading their swords and such left and right.

What does that have to do with RPG gaming where advancing your character through gear is one of the most important things? Self upgrading gear takes away from character advancement, which is a huge no-no in any RPG game.

Now, upgrading  a certain weapon through quests and crafting a la Flail of the Ages in BG2, I can understand. But a weapon getting better just because you level up is ridiculous and only belongs in movies and books.

[Kileyan]

wowpwnslol wrote...

In books and movies though you don't see the characters upgrading their swords and such left and right.

What does that have to do with RPG gaming where advancing your character through gear is one of the most important things? Self upgrading gear takes away from character advancement, which is a huge no-no in any RPG game.

Now, upgrading  a certain weapon through quests and crafting a la Flail of the Ages in BG2, I can understand. But a weapon getting better just because you level up is ridiculous and only belongs in movies and books.

Not only that, but the sword/dagger/bow(whatever) you have at the beginning has to be pretty darn special in order for it to make sense that your character would be so attached to it, that it would feel 'wrong' to replace it.

In these games we usually start as a nobody recruit or fledgling mage who no one knows will go on to do great things. There really is no reason that my grunt soldier character with his likely barely serviceable long sword will be all that attached to it. Its just one of 1000s mass produced for the army. It is far more unrealistic that if he found a ancient weapon of legend, crafted by some lost race of smiths..........that he would ignore it, over his trusty rusty long sword of mass production.

The fantasy novel examples are either powerful figures who wield something like Stormbringer, or reluctant heroes who end up in the possession of a mighty item of lore from the start.

Mostly though, I don't want this mechanism because it is one more nail in the coffin of the old rpg activities that I like. I don't really want to play a game that is all story and cutscenes. I like the opening chests stuff, I like wondering what cool sword that deady boss assassin might be carryng, I like wondering what spell I might find in the book of that 1000's year old mage.

You might say Kiley, we aren't saying remove treasure from the game at all! I say that once dev's realize they can get away with leveling up items and upgrading them via quest lines or dialog clicks, they will find the treasure system much easier and easier to do less work on, and eventually just cut out completely. How many times have these very dev's said the unique art assets of items take tons of work, how many times have they cut features, telling us of priorities? Now how likely is it that varied items and a balanced good item system would be cut if they can tell us that we really don't need it, since our starter items will usefull through out the whole game.

I don't think they plan it, but it will be much easier to put on the chopping block, much easier the next time, until that aspect is gone. Dammit, I like finding items, I like finding that cool item some designer thought up, that midway through the game changed up how I play or how I equip my character. I don't want to play a game where I click through cutscenes and the combat system, class system, itemization is just the bare minimum needed to carry the full motion video and dialog choices, and I see that happening down the road.

Modifié par Kileyan, 24 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .