24 réponses à ce sujet

[shaktiboy]

DiscoBird's excellent thread on Rogue DPS damage shows the two extreme dagger/dagger variants, and the thread discussion suggests that there might be a sweet spot in a hybrid DEX/CUN build where you're gaining enough extra benefits from CUN (for Tainted Blade, Lethality, and other talents/skills that benefit from CUN), yet also gaining moderate +attack and +defense (and utility archery) benefits from DEX to offset the typical miss/knockdown rate of a high CUN rogue.  To the point where the overall synergy is equal too or better than a high DEX or high CUN build.

Anyone think they've actually found this sweet spot yet?  I'm at the point where I need to make a choice whether to start dumping only in one or the other, or to try for a hybrid mix.

[Tonya777]

Basically just do 50/50 , but go a little bit off more on CUN



CUN/DEX 60/40 or 50/50 works



I hear that with that PC patch they just put out its best to just go 50/50

[Timortis]

Depends on your goals. I'm soloing another Rogue right now, and I plan to experiment a bit with this. Based on my previous soloing with 2 melee characters, anything under 110 unbuffed attack is unacceptable for me. You just miss too much in critical moments. Defense is a bigger problem, I still haven't figured out at what point you begin to feel "safe" with a Rogue. It definitely starts after 150, but doesn't really feel there yet. Would it still be viable? Maybe, I plan to find out.

Your needs may be different.

Modifié par Timortis, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:34 .

[jth82]

for me just enough dex for items/skill requirements and the rest into cunning works best



that is ofcourse assuming you have the lethality talent, and the assassin talents

[Enoch VG]

Just enough Cunning to pick all the locks in the game (with 4 ranks in the skill, 30), and the rest in Dexterity.



Pouring 3 otherwise-useless Talents into Lethality early on in the game is a waste.

[Timortis]

Below the Belt is a good talent, it's not useless, but Deadly Strike sucks big time. It might have made sense if Rogues hit with big 2 handers.

[Gaidren]

Timortis wrote...

Below the Belt is a good talent, it's not useless, but Deadly Strike sucks big time. It might have made sense if Rogues hit with big 2 handers.

I actually use a big 2 hander on my rogue (Max Str build) and Deadly Strike *still* sucks.  The animation is just so slow.  Below the Belt, on the other hand, is amazing with 2hers.  It's a fast attack that hits for weapon damage (so obviously with a 2h weapon it hits much harder than a dagger) *and* it resets the swing timer so your next autoattack begins immediately after.  Backstab into BtB into Backstab is a lethal combo that goes off fast and does huge damage with a 2h Starfang.

[Timortis]

Haha, Rogue backstabbing with a 2 hander is an interesting concept, it certainly frees up a lot of talents. How much do you backstab for usually?

[Silensfurtim]

CUN 60/DEX 40 sounds just about right. Your equipments with DEX bonuses can go up to +20, so that makes CUN 60/DEX 60.

[tetracycloide]

Enoch VG wrote...

Just enough Cunning to pick all the locks in the game (with 4 ranks in the skill, 30), and the rest in Dexterity.

Pouring 3 otherwise-useless Talents into Lethality early on in the game is a waste.

You advocate dropping 4 talents into device mastery to avoid pouring '3 otherwise-useless talents into lethality?'  Last I check 4 is one more than 3 and with a high cunning build you don't need any talents in devices to pick every lock.  Plus below the belt actually debuffs a mobs defense, the exact stat attack is meant to counteract that cunning rogues typically lack.

Frankly the only defense my rogue will ever need is stealth 4.  There are a handful of fights that don't allow restealthing even at rank 4 but in those fights your rogue should never be taking damage anyway.  Since it's easier to find gear that adds dex or attack I'd only put just enough into dex to use tier 7 daggers as soon as they start showing up for you and let the gear handle the rest.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 16 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Silensfurtim]

yep same with Cripple and Upset Balance

[plecha]

My first rogue also ended up sort of even in DEX/CUN (after items) and i had absolutely no trouble. I didn't even have momentum. Def is okay, but you will obviousely get hit sometimes, attack is okay. Damage might be a bit lacking compared to full CUN, but then i think you'll still fell enemies fast enough.

[plecha]

dp (umts sucks balls today)

Modifié par plecha, 16 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[shaktiboy]

Okay, some excellent comments here pointed me in what I think is the right direction to answer the question for me.

Since I'm playing rogue in part for the strong utility aspects (compared to DW Warrior), high Cunning is the way to go for me, probably following the CUN dagger/dagger model in Discobird's rogue DPS thread to the letter, or at the very least leaning towards at least 60% CUN to 40% DEX after gear bonuses are factored it.

Why?  Because all the rogueish utility skills/talents are heavily influenced by CUN and Tainted Blade can be fairly uber but only with high CUN.  The real hinge point for me was the utility skills/talents though. To briefly summarize from Discobird's other excellent thread on rogue mechanics explained:

100% Lockpicking and Trap Disarm:

• 60 Cunning + first skill rank of both skills, or
  
  
  
• 50 Cunning + second rank of both skills, or
  
  
  
• 40 Cunning + third rank of both skills, or
  
  
  
• 30 Cunning + fourth rank of both skills

100% Persuade Checks:

• 60 Cunning + second rank of Coercion, or
  
  
  
• 35 Cunning + third rank of Coercion, or
  
  
  
• < 35 Cunning + fourth rank of Coercion

High chance of stealthed stealing from elite boss with 20 mental resist combat:
[list]



[*]Pretty much want 60 Cunning or better

So by shooting for at least 60 CUN (after gear bonuses), I can put minimal skill points into Traps, Coercion, and therefore have a broader range of other useful skills earlier. I can also put only one talent point into Deft Hands and the other three points are freed up for getting to Lethality faster without sacrificing utility.

I also have far better chances for Stealing successes with less skill point investment in Stealing (at the very least saving the 3rd or 4th rank for late in the game if I even need them at all)

Finally, I get much more bang for the buck from Tainted Blade, Song of Courage (I'm convinced Assassin/Bard is the way to go for me), and the other talents that shine more brightly with CUN than with DEX.

Besides, since I'm playing a utility rogue playstyle (scouting in stealth, disarming traps, stealing, etc.), I'm already on a micromanagement path and will have 4 ranks in Stealth for a nice escape route, so the overall durability of DEX would be largely gratuitous anyway.

Thanks for all the input, and if my present thinking is still muddled or missing some essential point, please speak up!

Modifié par shaktiboy, 16 décembre 2009 - 08:54 .

[Gaidren]

Timortis wrote...

Haha, Rogue backstabbing with a 2 hander is an interesting concept, it certainly frees up a lot of talents. How much do you backstab for usually?

About 150-ish white damage, sometimes a bit less on heavy armor, more if Mark of Death is up obviously.

And yeah, it frees up a *ton* of points.  I'm actually out of things to buy for talents!  For skills it makes getting Stealing and max Persuade easy too.

Not having Momentum obviously makes having Haste a must, but it's really a very viable build. 

Modifié par Gaidren, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:07 .

[Chragen]

I found at least on my play through as a dagger rogue that just maxing out cunning worked great. I got 26 dex right away so I could get momentum at level 3 and use The Edge right away. After that I went from 10 to 15 str and after that I just pumped cunning like crazy. I only added 1 point to dex when I was at level 19-20 so I could get whirlwind. At that point I pretty much had every single talent that had any affect on my backstabs.

Even though I went full cunning I still had about 50 dex or so because of gear. You get hardly any cunning from gear outside of the +attribute items, but there are several +dex items.

Only thing to watch out for with a cunning rogue is that you will have pretty low attack. But you can fix that with party buffs.

[CBGB]

shaktiboy wrote...
Since I'm playing rogue in part for the strong utility aspects (compared to DW Warrior), high Cunning is the way to go for me...
Why?  Because all the rogueish utility skills/talents are heavily influenced by CUN and Tainted Blade can be fairly uber but only with high CUN.

Shakti, I'm starting from the same place and decided to favor Dex.

• Lethality takes three Talent points I can apply to other things. 60 Cunning, Lethality, and 1 rank of Lockpicking equals 30 Cunning (including items bonuses) and four ranks.
• I'll need 3 to 4 ranks of Coercion, but I have enough Skills to spare for that, Combat, and a start in Poisons and Traps. If you wanted all three, then freeing Coercion would help.
• My defense and attack rating is higher than a Cunning rogue. The Bard specialization becomes one good option, but not essential.

The tradeoff? I don't get the bonus from Tainted Blade. That's the real cost, and Discobird shows the DPS difference: appreciable but not overwhelming.

You've thought this through, and your Cunning approach is a good one. I just wanted to offer another viable alternative.

Modifié par CBGB, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:51 .

[Id of Ith]

CUN Rogues will still do more damage because your talent-based contribution from CUN is higher, and CUN grants armor penetration as a secondary instead of defense (DEX).



I don't know as skipping Lethality is really a good idea unless you are really going for minimal CUN. You don't save much because then you will really need to switch those points into your lockpicking line unless you plan on running 2 rogues. There is a minor advantage in that you can do that fairly early (where a CUN rogue would probably head for Lethality shortly after acquiring Momentum) and thus will be able to pick/disarm mostly all of the early stuff where a CUN rogue tends to not be able to until 11-12 or higher (whenever CUN starts to get near the 40s).



If you are playing your rogue in a DPS role primarily, there is very little advantage to pumping DEX aside from the slightly higher hit chance. The defense bonus is not particularly compelling in the face of combat stealth and tank/CC abilities from your party.

[Thrasher91604]

Hmm, I'd worry about having too low of an attack and defense rating if one minimized dexterity.



I'd like to see an analysis on needed defense and attack for the toughest enemies.

[tetracycloide]

Dex vs Cun on a 'needed defense and attack' comparison really comes down to party makeup. If you can get attack through buffs and you've got the right spells and talents to CC or tank everything you won't need attack or defense through dex.

[Thrasher91604]

So this build requires a party that can buff your attacks, do CC, and tank?



Still would like to know how high of an attack one needs to hit the hardest and defense to protect against foes...

[Id of Ith]

Thrasher91604 wrote...

So this build requires a party that can buff your attacks, do CC, and tank?

Still would like to know how high of an attack one needs to hit the hardest and defense to protect against foes...

There aren't a lot of party make-ups that can't CC or tank. As far as attack buffs, a CUN rogue gets a lot of DEX from gear, and Bard spec grants ATK based on your CUN score through... Courage I think? It is far from "required" to stack a ton of attack buffs, the difference is not that large and you should be flanking at all times (up to +20 attack).

[Silensfurtim]

attack rating is no problem if you backstab 100% of the time.



Rally + Song of Courage + Flanking Bonus = can reach up to 140 attack

[Haplose]

Timortis wrote...

Depends on your goals. I'm soloing another Rogue right now, and I plan to experiment a bit with this. Based on my previous soloing with 2 melee characters, anything under 110 unbuffed attack is unacceptable for me. You just miss too much in critical moments. Defense is a bigger problem, I still haven't figured out at what point you begin to feel "safe" with a Rogue. It definitely starts after 150, but doesn't really feel there yet. Would it still be viable? Maybe, I plan to find out.

Your needs may be different.

I would say 150 Defence is somewhere where you can start to feel really safe against normal attacks.
Problem is with status effects and attacks you cannot defend against... and statuses like stunned halve your Defence.
Things like Dirty Fighting or Scattershot can be really devastating if you are attacked by multiple mobs.
Better also watch out for autohits like Slams, Rams, Massive Attacks, grabs and such.

Of course Magic is an even grater problem... you don't want to be a target of Crushing Prison or Curse of Mortality... especially when soloing. Hence no enemy Mage should ever cast more then 1 spell... preferably none.

Overall it doesn't seem like you can ever feel truely "immortal" - especially solo.
Maybe with a Dex-based Two-handed warrior with Indomitable? But that would be a gimp build....

[MarcAntony]

I may render & upload my latest Archdemon fight for you to see. My final stats going into the fight were 100 Cunning and 48 Dex. With Rally + Heroic Offense (both 100% uptime), my +Attack was 138 and defense was….can’t quite remember…..like 125-130.



In any event, I didn’t dps with the two Mages at all (simply used them for heals, buffs, and debuffs) and Allistair was solely focused on tanking and did next to nothing damage-wise. My Rogue just slaughtered the Archdemon. I position him directly behind the Archdemon for max +Attack bonus and took a couple kicks to the face.



I know its different for everyone and you do whatever you feel is best, but if you want to inflict the most godlike damage this game will allow……..you will simply follow Disco’s Cunning Dagger/Dagger build to a T and enjoy the fury your Rogue will unleash.



I spent a lot of time playing with the respect mod on my first playthrough, bouncing back and forth between full Dex and full Cunn and a mix, and for me at least, full Cunning was by far and above the most enjoyable and powerful experience. By around level18, I just stopped bothering with the Dex and Blend builds and went the rest of the way Cunning. I think it was when I fought Galaxkang with all 3 builds, saving Cunning for last, that I just could no longer see a reason to play as anything other than Cunning. Poor Galaxkang had no idea what I was bringing to the table. Poor guy dropped in mere seconds.



I will make a disclaimer, however, to that statement. As people have alluded to, there is a very definite situation in which the Dex build would be superior, and that is if you are soloing – in this case, the added +Attack (cause you won’t be able to backstab much) and +Defense (obvious, you wont have a tank or healer) would be mandatory. But if you are playing with a group……Cunningx10000000