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[Confederate Republic]

"Ceorlic watched them from the wall, horror twisting his features into an ugly grimace. His eyes flickered from Loghain to Maric and back again, and he threw his sword to the floor. It clattered there noisily as he sank to his knees, shaking in abject terror.

"I surrender!" he shouted. "Please! I'll do anything!"

Maric walked up to him slowly. The man cowered before Maric, and then lost what little dignity he had left as he bowed his forehead to the floor and crawled towards Maric's boots.

"Please! My... my armies! I'll raise double the men! I'll say that... that the others attacked you!"

"Pick up your sword." Maric told him. He glanced toward Loghain, who only nodded cooly as he pushed the dead man off his blade. Bann Ceorlic rose to his knees, looking up at Maric and putting his hands together in prayer.

"For the love of the Maker!"

He cried, tears running down his face.

"Do not do this! I'll give you anything you wish!"

Maric bent down and grabbed the man by the ear. He felt his rage bubble up, remembered how this man had run his sword through his mother, how he had raced through the forest while his men chased him. This man's treachery had started all of this, and Maric was going to end it.

"What I want back you can't give me."

He said, shaking with rage as he thrust the longsword through Ceorlic's heart. The man's eyes went wide with shock. Blood trickled from his mouth, and he started uncomprehendingly at Maric as he gasped. Each gasp became weaker, and Maric slowly lowered him to the floor. When he drew his last breath, Maric gritted his teeth and yanked the blade noisily from Ceorlic's chest."

- An excerpt from "The Stolen Thone" by David Gaider, Maric Theirin gets his revenge on Bann Ceorlic.


Yes, I'm just belching out new threads and topics like crazy, aren't I?

I finished reading "The Stolen Throne" today, and I couldn't help but draw comparisons between Bann Ceorlic's brutal murder of Maric's mother Queen Rowen, and Howe's massacre of the Cousland Family.

Maric eventually catches up to the Bann along with his four associates, having lured them into a Chantry in the Bannorn under the pretense of forming an alliance. Instead, Maric and Loghain barred the door and massacred them all, Maric saving Ceorlic for last, as quoted above.

Shortly after Arl Howe kidnaps Queen Anora and holds her hostage in his estate, kept trapped by a magic barrier erected by Howe's mage advisor, the Warden and his/her companions raid the estate. Howe taunts the Cousland Warden about how he killed his family, and then engages in a standard gameplay combat boss battle. Arl Howe is struck down in basic fashion, the same way any random bandit or Genlock would be killed, without a finishing move, "killed" likely by a random companion, triggering a pointless cutscene in which Howe taunts you again, that he deserved more.

Vaughan Kendells kidnaps and rapes several Elven women from the Denerim alienage, in which he is once again killed in random combat like any other enemy, without even an ending cutscene.

Prince Bhelen Aeducan murders his own brother, and then has his other sibling take the blame for it, prompting him/her to be swiftly exiled to his/her death by their own father (Or become a Broodmother if female), who shortly after dies of regret, to which Bhelen promptly continues about his daily life as if nothing has happened, only to be randomly killed by some generic Deshyr or companion most likely in standard combat like any other enemy.

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, no, I'm not saying I want a scene where Howe or some other enemy begs for Mercy long enough for my Warden to torture them to death. I just couldn't help but notice the fact that most of the "Personal" antagonist's deaths are so... anticlimatic, where Ceorlic's death is a major focal point, and one of the major turning points for Maric, along with killing Katriel. Honestly, Howe's death is a random combat session no different in feel from the random boss-level Hurlock Omega encounter, with just as much drama, being none. I just thought it was... odd that no special cutscene or finishing move took place.

Honestly, my first battle with him went something along the lines of this. My party rushed in and quickly took out the low level guards around him, and Alistair had Howe's full attention, while Wynne threw out heals and slashed at Howe with her sword, and Leliana just fired arrows at varius targets. I already killed one of his Mage advisors and was in the process of taking down the second, when Howe just randomly collapsed backwards dead like any other enemy in the game. I didn't even know who dealt the final blow. As soon as the Mage fell, I got a random cutscene of Howe complaining that he deserved MOAR, and then he died.

Swiftly reloading, I had all the guards and mages taken down first, then put my party on hold outside the door and turned off their tactics, and had Howe focused only on me, and fought him one-on-one in the chamber... Which swiftly turned into us taking turns beating each other in the face with our weapons, me stopping to chug a poultice every now and again, until finally he just randomly collapsed to the ground when his health bar ran out, and once again he whined about needing MOAR, and died. I looted his body, freed some prisoners, and that was it.

I'm not saying I want a chance to torture him to death or have him cry for mercy at my feet, infact that would be a little uncomfortable to me. But, SOMETHING, like a finishing deathblow animation, or a quick murder-knife cutscene where you throw it at his head and it stabs him in the eye mid-combat or something. I felt like it was just a missed opportunity.

I'm not sure if it was limitations of the game engine, vs. the intricate details allowed in a book, or the writers for Howe just didn't care as much as Gaider did with Ceorlic, but there was definitaly a vast difference, and a small "bridge" of a sort of inbetween would have been nice to me.

Essentially, I just wanted to ask you, were you satisfied with the revenge on Arl Howe? Or did you, like him, want MOAR? Or Vaughan, or Bhelen. Hell, any antagonist you hated, even Caladrius during a City Elf playthrough. Did you think it could have been done better, or was it just fine? Was there any particular way you would have killed Howe/Vaughan/Bhelen/Caladrius, etc.?

[Fiacre]

Prince Bhelen Aeducan murders his own brother, and then has his other sibling take the blame for it, prompting him/her to be swiftly exiled to his/her death by their own father (Or become a Broodmother if female), who shortly after dies of regret, to which Bhelen promptly continues about his daily life as if nothing has happened, only to be randomly killed by some generic Deshyr or companion most likely in standard combat like any other enemy.

Or you decided to kill Trian yourself and all he did was lie to you that Trian planned to do it first. And either way, you can decide to support Bhelen for various good reasons. Somehow, I never found him to be on the same level as Howe or Vaughan as far a "personal" antagonists go.

I do agree though that it would have been nice to get a special cutscene with Howe and let a CE say more about the purge to the alienage. I suppose one of the reasons why you don't get the latter might be that he's supposed to be the antagonist for the HN... Or because the Cousland massacre was also personal for Howe himself, so he treats you differently based on that.

I think the generic "I deserved MORE" cutscene works well if you ant to play someone who feels no satisfaction after getting revenge, but it *is* a bit of a bummer for those that do want their character to feel some or those that actually want them to regret what they did.

[Corker]

Confederate Republic wrote...


"Do not do this! I'll give you anything you wish!"

Maric bent down and grabbed the man by the ear. He felt his rage bubble up, remembered how this man had run his sword through his mother, how he had raced through the forest while his men chased him. This man's treachery had started all of this, and Maric was going to end it.

"What I want back you can't give me."

   Y'all, never invoke an iconic scene from an iconic movie unless you can do it as well or better than the original, lest your readers be left wishing they were watching Inigo Montoya instead of your protag.

Confederate Republic wrote...

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, no, I'm not saying I want a scene where Howe or some other enemy begs for Mercy long enough for my Warden to torture them to death. I just couldn't help but notice the fact that most of the "Personal" antagonist's deaths are so... anticlimatic, where Ceorlic's death is a major focal point, and one of the major turning points for Maric, along with killing Katriel. Honestly, Howe's death is a random combat session no different in feel from the random boss-level Hurlock Omega encounter, with just as much drama, being none. I just thought it was... odd that no special cutscene or finishing move took place.

But a special cutscene *did* take place.  "Maker spit on you, I deserved more!" - to the end, he is unrepentant, a thorough-going villain motivated by envy.  If your Cousland had spent the Blight asking, "Why? Why did he do it?" - that's the answer.  It's the answer to why Howe does everything that he does, the encapsulation of his character in his last words.

You get your "there's that look, the damn look in the eye that preceeded every Cousland achievement that held me back" (or whatever the quote is), or conversely the "made your mother kiss my feet" thing before the fight. 

They could have triggered the cutscene when his health bar zereoed (as the Carta thugs at the shack, the Lothering thugs on the highway, and Caladrius all do), I suppose, but then you would have had anti-climactic mop-up of any remaining minions.  Unlike a book, the game can't script that you'll save the big boss for last.

I mean, unless you do the DA2 thing and put the big boss in an invincible force field until the end of the fight.  Which also feels forced.

Confederate Republic wrote...

Essentially, I just wanted to ask you, were you satisfied with the revenge on Arl Howe? Or did you, like him, want MOAR? Or Vaughan, or Bhelen. Hell, any antagonist you hated, even Caladrius during a City Elf playthrough. Did you think it could have been done better, or was it just fine? Was there any particular way you would have killed Howe/Vaughan/Bhelen/Caladrius, etc.?

My Couslands were not satisfied, but I am.  I'm just as happy to see the revenge taste of emptiness and ashes, healing nothing, fixing nothing; a lie of consolation.  Call it Whedonesque if you like - sometimes, death just happens.

I always wanted to be able to tell Leske that my DC understood why he did what he did, and give him the chance to run away.

[Confederate Republic]

Corker wrote...

Confederate Republic wrote...


"Do not do this! I'll give you anything you wish!"

Maric bent down and grabbed the man by the ear. He felt his rage bubble up, remembered how this man had run his sword through his mother, how he had raced through the forest while his men chased him. This man's treachery had started all of this, and Maric was going to end it.

"What I want back you can't give me."

   Y'all, never invoke an iconic scene from an iconic movie unless you can do it as well or better than the original, lest your readers be left wishing they were watching Inigo Montoya instead of your protag.
Something tells me you've just summoned the wrath of David Gaider :innocent:

Confederate Republic wrote...

Essentially, I just wanted to ask you, were you satisfied with the revenge on Arl Howe? Or did you, like him, want MOAR? Or Vaughan, or Bhelen. Hell, any antagonist you hated, even Caladrius during a City Elf playthrough. Did you think it could have been done better, or was it just fine? Was there any particular way you would have killed Howe/Vaughan/Bhelen/Caladrius, etc.?

My Couslands were not satisfied, but I am.  I'm just as happy to see the revenge taste of emptiness and ashes, healing nothing, fixing nothing; a lie of consolation.  Call it Whedonesque if you like - sometimes, death just happens.

I always wanted to be able to tell Leske that my DC understood why he did what he did, and give him the chance to run away.

Okay, you likely drastically misunderstood what I was trying to say. Were I Maric, I would not have found gutting Ceorlic satisfying in the least, regardless of what he did. I also made it clear I had no desire to see Howe beg at my feet, or torture him to death. I agree, about your statement of revenge fixing nothing. I never thought or wanted it too. I never thought seeing him beg or wretch in pain and agony would somehow heal scars and fix everything, or that I even wanted it. My problem is just how anticlimatic, poorly thought out, and just how BASIC Howe's death was. A moment that was built up the whole game ends up being no different from any other orange level enemy. There was no depth, no emotional ramification, there was no taste of emptiness and ashes, just standard proceedure. There was no option to say anything to anyone, or to have a companion talk with you, no way to express your feelings on the matter, there was nothing. Several characters mention the fact that Howe is dead in a brief manner, but beyond that, there is nothing. No resolution, no coming to terms with what happened.

[Corker]

...nope, still doesn't bother me.

I think you're looking at a limitation of the form and the budget. You get your emotional ramifications before the fight, in the dialogues, for the bosses who aren't Loghain or the Archdemon, with the sole exception, I think, of the Dalish Elf. DE gets a post-kill "are you okay?" convo for an origin-specific encounter; given how little else the DE gets, though, it's more of a bone thrown.

Sure, there were *lots* of things I wanted to talk to the companions about, but couldn't. But talking about Howe's death would only make the wish list for my Couslands, and it would still come after wanting to be able to talk about the broodmother, and what it means for the fate of a female Warden. Because damn.

[Confederate Republic]

Corker wrote...

...nope, still doesn't bother me.

I think you're looking at a limitation of the form and the budget. You get your emotional ramifications before the fight, in the dialogues, for the bosses who aren't Loghain or the Archdemon, with the sole exception, I think, of the Dalish Elf. DE gets a post-kill "are you okay?" convo for an origin-specific encounter; given how little else the DE gets, though, it's more of a bone thrown.

Sure, there were *lots* of things I wanted to talk to the companions about, but couldn't. But talking about Howe's death would only make the wish list for my Couslands, and it would still come after wanting to be able to talk about the broodmother, and what it means for the fate of a female Warden. Because damn.

You aren't alone there, not by a long shot, if the countless stories/comics/general forum posts involving FemWarden begging their LI (Usually Alistair. Poor Zevran, he never gets no lovin) to kill her before letting her become one of those things says anything.

I admit, I definitaly expected some kind of reaction for that fight, in a quick comment if nothing else, similar in the ways your companions will mention such as nearing the Circle Tower, Exiting Redcliffe Chantry, etc.

I do somewhat feel there were a lot of missed opportunities for your party to chime in at different moments but, I guess like you said, there are a lot more limitations in a game then a novel.

In any case, I remembered reading many posts involving the... painful, things that people wished their Warden could inflict on Vaughan and Howe to get revenge, and noticed just how anticlimatic the fights ingame were, so I just kinda wondered how people felt. I guess no one really is bothered by it anymore though.