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[Nhani]

Y'know, I'm starting to get uncertain whether it was just me now because no one else seems to have noticed, and I can't remember the exact words that came into play, but..

For some reason, there was one point of the Landsmeet that Anora herself seemed to very much imply that it had been a setup - that she had been "testing" your willingness to serve Ferelden (and by turning against her and sanctioning Alistair, I had "failed" her test).

Like I said, I can't remember exactly where during the dialogue it was or what exact words she used, but the responses she gave me seemed to hint - if not directly out say - that she had been "testing" me in that regard, and something about the whole thing really just stank.

Then again.. I'll also quietly admit that I was expecting Riordan to be an imposter at this point, so I could very well have been having my betrayal alert tuned way too high, but there was something about what Anora said and how that got me the feeling she had set much of it up just to test whether you could be of benefit to her or not. 

[mousestalker]

My problem with Anora is that she is unwilling to bribe. If she had given my character some fresh baked cookies or maybe an apple pie, she would have had my support. As it is, she's too chintzy for me.

[Korva]

Xandurpein wrote...

Try looking at it from the other side. If it all WAS a set-up, why on earth does she go directly to Arl Eamons estate, when you go to prison.

That is part of why I think the setup theory doesn't work. But it doesn't change the fact that Cauthrien's sudden, informed appearance looks extremely suspicious. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any comparable situation -- except maybe how the powers-that-be "just happen" to find you standing over Trian's body in the dwarven noble origin. And that most definitely is a set-up, especially if you do not kill him.

[Popemaster123]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

She TOLD you she could not, under any circumstances be seen as "escaping" as it would put her position and possibly her life in jeopardy. She said it a couple of times.

I went ahead and said "Hey, I'm trying to rescue her" just to see what would happen. When Anora shrieked I was kidnapping her, I mentally congratulated her on her quick thinking.

I did that after not reading the dialogue (i was busy at the time) and i think i chose the option like "you back-stabbing ****" or that might of been after i escaped from fort drakon.

BTW cant u go out another way anyway? someone i know said u could leave through another door and avoid loghains knight...

[Shady314]

Korva wrote...

The "proof" is how Cauthrien appears at just the right moment in just the right place knowing exactly what happened mere moments ago. That simply is not possible without a set-up.

I don't like the idea of it being a set-up. I think it's stupid, and story-wise makes less sense than it being a genuine rescue mission. But it's very hard to ignore the utter "What the hell?!" factor of Cauthrien popping up there as soon as you let Anora out. I would rather have her showing up on Eamon's doorstep later and demanding for the Warden to be handed over for the "murder" of Howe.

If it was a trap Cauthrien should have shown up BEFORE you kill Howe.

Hell your entire party walks down into a dungeon. They should just lock the door behind you.

Modifié par Shady314, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[Sihvar]

Popemaster123 wrote...
BTW cant u go out another way anyway? someone i know said u could leave through another door and avoid loghains knight...

The only other way out is to go back into the dungeon (it has two exits), but Anora won't let you do that (says something about needing to escape when you try to use the doorway).

[CloudOfShadows]

Nhani wrote...

Y'know, I'm starting to get uncertain whether it was just me now because no one else seems to have noticed, and I can't remember the exact words that came into play, but..

For some reason, there was one point of the Landsmeet that Anora herself seemed to very much imply that it had been a setup - that she had been "testing" your willingness to serve Ferelden (and by turning against her and sanctioning Alistair, I had "failed" her test).

Like I said, I can't remember exactly where during the dialogue it was or what exact words she used, but the responses she gave me seemed to hint - if not directly out say - that she had been "testing" me in that regard, and something about the whole thing really just stank.

Then again.. I'll also quietly admit that I was expecting Riordan to be an imposter at this point, so I could very well have been having my betrayal alert tuned way too high, but there was something about what Anora said and how that got me the feeling she had set much of it up just to test whether you could be of benefit to her or not. 

I got a similar feeling out of it.

Then again, I think the beauty of it is that it works either way. It could either be an informed Ser Cauthrien coming in to ensure that Anora stays locked up sent by Loghain - or invited over by Anora. Both interpretations are valid, I think. And maybe this ambiguity is intended, maybe it is not.

I think the great thing is that it's possible to read it both ways

[Aedan_Cousland]

Korva wrote...

The "proof" is how Cauthrien appears at just the right moment in just the right place knowing exactly what happened mere moments ago. That simply is not possible without a set-up.

Or, Loghain could have a spy in Arl Eamon's household. Or maybe one of those servants overheard your conversation with Arl Eamon and decided he wanted to make a little coin on the side. Or maybe a servant or guard at Arl Howe's Estate fled and warned Loghain's men. Or perhaps Loghain had someone watching Arl Howe's estate, either because he didn't fully trust Howe fully or because he thought the PC might try to slip in and off him. Or maybe Arl Eamon or one of his men with knowledge went to the Pearl, and did a little too much talking in bed.

Just because Ser Cauthrien shows up as you are exiting doesn't necessarily mean she is part of a setup. There are a lot of reasons why should could be there, and any of the above that I listed are more plausible explanations, since Anora does support you if you play your cards right. Her overtures to you are genuine.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Nhani]

CloudOfShadows wrote...
I got a similar feeling out of it.

Then again, I think the beauty of it is that it works either way. It could either be an informed Ser Cauthrien coming in to ensure that Anora stays locked up sent by Loghain - or invited over by Anora. Both interpretations are valid, I think. And maybe this ambiguity is intended, maybe it is not.

I think the great thing is that it's possible to read it both ways

I'm not alone \\o/

Yeah, they are, and I really can't shake the feeling that it all is a setup - not one to get you captured, mind you, but one to see if she can manipulate you into serving her ends. If you agree to help her, then she can use you to take regency from her father; if she can't, then she can use her father to stop you. Either way, she wins.

..of course, then there's the option of telling her no and actually beating her father and cheerfully kicking over her carefully stacked deck of cards..

[robertthebard]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Korva wrote...

The "proof" is how Cauthrien appears at just the right moment in just the right place knowing exactly what happened mere moments ago. That simply is not possible without a set-up.

Or, Loghain could have a spy in Arl Eamon's household. Or maybe one of those servants overheard your conversation with Arl Eamon and decided he wanted to make a little coin on the side. Or maybe a servant or guard at Arl Howe's Estate fled and warned Loghain's men. Or perhaps Loghain had someone watching Arl Howe's estate, either because he didn't fully trust Howe fully or because he thought the PC might try to slip in and off him. Or maybe Arl Eamon or one of his men with knowledge went to the Pearl, and did a little too much talking in bed.

Just because Ser Cauthrien shows up as you are exiting doesn't necessarily mean she is part of a setup. There are a lot of reasons why should could be there, and any of the above that I listed are more plausible explanations, since Anora does support you if you play your cards right. Her overtures to you are genuine.

Me thinks thou dost assume too much.  It is far more likely that it was a set up to test the viability of trusting the Wardens to back her, Anora, up.  The fact that you did in fact kill Howe, and did in fact get her out, speaks volumes, and the fact that you did get out of Fort Drakon makes it even more viable.  Of course, if you do betray her, she will betray you whether at the end of the rescue, or at the end of the Landsmeet.  Either way, it is possible to trump her by what you can find out in Howe's dungeon.

She has already been stripped of her throne by her father, and now you want to make sure she doesn't ever get it back, by putting Alistair forward.  She goes to Eamon's, regardless of whether you fight and lose, or surrender because she knows she has to, in order to appear sincere in both needing rescued, and because she knows if she has any prayer of getting the throne back, it's not going to be through her father.  Totally selfishly motivated, and a brilliant plan.  That said, I went ahead and put her on the throne this time, and let Alistair be the macho hero.  I was a Dalish Elf, so there was no chance at me getting anywhere near the throne.

[Felene]

It is a setup, by Anora, if you have Loghain in the party and ask him, he will confirm it.

Also, if you ask him about Anora's character, he will say she is the "undisputed monarch of the world."

So yeah, she is the Queen of Ferelden and a power hungry ****, well... at least a very subjective person.

Modifié par Felene, 16 décembre 2009 - 11:07 .

[menasure]

Xandurpein wrote...

Korva wrote...

As for whether Ser Cauthrien's sudden appearance is a set-up, I'm really torn about that. I would like to say no, but the way it happens sure makes it look like it. It is just too damn convenient. Howe's blood isn't even dry on the floor yet, there simply is no way she could know about his death if she wasn't tipped off before you even killed him.

Try looking at it from the other side. If it all WAS a set-up, why on earth does she go directly to Arl Eamons estate, when you go to prison.

It's game, remember. If you question every "convenient" appearnce in the game you are bound to see conspiracy theories everywhere. Isn't it very convenient the way dog finds you. hmmm...

there is little doubt that you are set up, the question is who is setting you up?

i have not read the books and do like dialogue options and general lines but as for the game i think it makes a few turns to few or to many sometimes to get a credible story. i don't care if
david gaider says that Anora is queen.... because....

a queen would request an audience normally if she wants to discuss political affairs. if she's somehow captured then i have my doubts about the whole situation because you are talking about one of the most heavily guarded persons in a country.
Anora is clearly not presiding the whole landsmeet, loghain is and he's surprised about her showing up. loghain has little to gain from a kidnapping story because one way or another it makes him look bad as regent if he can not even protect his own daughter/the queen. since he is already the regent he is already in a strong position.

so the number of suspects drops fast: either Howe (without knowledge of loghain) or everything is staged by Anora.
while Howe clearly has an influence on loghain (he does send zevran after you for example) the funny part is that half the men in Howe's estate are in fact loghain's men -something which Anora refers to and you clearly face Ser Cautrien when you try to leave.  so besides lacking a motive earl Howe would be taking an enormous chance to keep Anora in his own estate under the eyes of troops from Loghain and as statesman directly under loghain.

now you are supposed to loose that fight with ser cautrien and after Anora had her little chat with Earl Eamon or is certain to have one only then you are busted out of prison. that is after you have become stigmatized as an even greater criminal and by association also her competitor Alistair. so here we have the motive and your gallow at the same time.
the only one who can tell anyone that it is not you who's to blame is ... Anora.
At the same time she then conveniently gives you the tip about the stuff going with the elves... suddenly the ever closed gate also literally opens to that area.
so now we have Anora holding a sword above both yours, by association allistairs and loghain's neck and the nobles will support whoever she points out as a culprit because she is the only one who did "nothing wrong" whatsoever and is in every case a "victim" of the crimes committed by others which is a good way to earn even more sympathy during the landsmeet.

that makes this whole chapter an all to obvious "set up" by Anora or a clumsy "blame loghain" attempt in my opinion.

[Aedan_Cousland]

EDIT: If Loghain does confirm it was a setup in dialogue, than I stand corrected.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 16 décembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[Ulicus]

It's a set-up in the sense that Anora isn't in any real danger and wants to see if the Warden really would be better at the helm than her father. She might also want the Warden to kill Howe, since she hates the guy and totally loved Eleanor Cousland or whatever.

It's not a set-up in the sense that she wants the Warden to be captured, though. No.

Loghain confirms only that Anora was manipulating people to get the best possible outcome for herself. He doesn't suggest for a moment that Anora had some nefarious plot to lure the Warden into being captured.

Modifié par Ulicus, 16 décembre 2009 - 11:31 .

[Felene]

Anora was threaten by Loghain, who was announcing himself as her regent.

Although Loghain's main purpose is to gather an army and seize military power of Ferelden, but Anora doesn't think so.

Thus, she has to find herself a powerful ally who she knows for sure will not side with Loghain.

So she put herself as a bait for Arl Eamon and the Warden to bite, in order to gain the Warden's support at the Landsmeet, also, at the same time, getting rid of Howe who was his father's right hand man.

Loghain take note of the plan and decided to foul it by sending Ser Cauthrien to arrest the Warden.

Politics and power play between a father and a daughter who know each other too well.

Leaving the Warden running around like a clown.

Modifié par Felene, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:06 .

[Gold Dragon]

Which is why Anora only gets the Throne if Alistair dies.  At least, in my games.

In a game of Backstabbing, only the last one qualifies.

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:06 .

[Korva]

Playing devil's advocate here.  As I said, my gut feeling prefers it not to be a set-up. But devil's advocacy can be fun, so:

Shady314 wrote...

If it was a trap Cauthrien should have shown up BEFORE you kill Howe.

Unless Anora wanted to get rid of Howe.

Also: if the Warden is captured and the noble, concerned Queen informs Arl Eamon about it and tells him where the Warden would be imprisoned (and maybe about the layout of Fort Drakon etc.), it could help ensure the Warden's gratitude for her rescue, and her support for Anora at the Landsmeet.

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Or, Loghain could
have a spy in Arl Eamon's household. Or maybe one of those servants
overheard your conversation with Arl Eamon and decided he wanted to
make a little coin on the side. Or maybe a servant or guard at Arl
Howe's Estate fled and warned Loghain's men. Or perhaps Loghain had
someone watching Arl Howe's estate, either because he didn't fully
trust Howe fully or because he thought the PC might try to slip in and
off him. Or maybe Arl Eamon or one of his men with knowledge went to
the Pearl, and did a little too much talking in bed.

None of these explain why Cauthrien shows up moments after Howe's death knowing he is in fact dead, and does not believe that Anora was held prisoner. I don't think the rescue plans would be discussed where anyone can hear. Even if they were, it means Cauthrien would know Anora was held prisoner and sent her handmaiden to ask for help -- in which case she should be out for Howe's head for daring to lay hands on the daughter of her adored hero and master Loghain. Likewise if Loghain had someone watching Howe. The only explanation that could work would be someone escaping, but the timing feels off for that too since he would have to run to the palace, find Cauthrien and run back in the short time it takes to storm the dungeon and get Anora out. And even then the servant wouldn't know Howe is dead.

(Though I admit when someone you already view as an enemy breaks into the house of an ally of yours, you're may not be likely to bother with the semantics of "murder of Howe" versus "breaking, entering and probably attempted murder of Howe".)

Felene wrote...

It is a setup, by Anora, if you have Loghain in the party and ask him, he will confirm it.

He does? Well, damn. So much for fun speculations.

[Drunkencelt]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

No, because if you surrender to Ser Cauthrien and say the right things to Anora after you escape, she supports you at the landsmeet. If Anora was setting you up at Howe's estate the objective would be to get rid of you, or discredit you before the landsmeet. If that were the case she wouldn't be supporting you at the landsmeet after you escape.

Anora's overtures towards you are genuine. She only betrays you if you do something that she thinks is not in her best interests. She betrays you in front of Ser Cauthrien if you choose to fight because you are endangering her, and if you tell her you plan to execute her father she'll betray you at the landsmeet.

Annora does not support you if you agree to marry her and be prince consort. She still shows up and backstabs you.

[Felene]

Anora will not support the PC if:

-PC tell her s/he will not support her for the throne at the Landsmeet.

-PC tell her Loghain has to die.

Modifié par Felene, 17 décembre 2009 - 12:39 .

[Herr Uhl]

Felene wrote...

Anora will not support the PC if:

-PC tell her s/he will not support her for the throne at the Landsmeet.

-PC tell her Loghain has to die.

Not supporting you if you don't support her or if you want to kill her dad!

What unreasonable demands!

[robertthebard]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Felene wrote...

Anora will not support the PC if:

-PC tell her s/he will not support her for the throne at the Landsmeet.

-PC tell her Loghain has to die.

Not supporting you if you don't support her or if you want to kill her dad!

What unreasonable demands!

These, in and of themselves, are not a betrayal.  They are looking out for #1.  Nothing wrong with that.  This does not change the fact that I believe she sets you up from the very beginning.  Even her dialog with Eamon points to this, if Alistair is with the PC when they are captured.  Being in it to win it isn't a bad thing, and her methods scream that she is.  What is admirable about her character, however, is that even if you do kill her father after the duel, she doesn't try to turn it around on you.  Of course, since the Landsmeet has spoken, it's very likely that she can't.  In the scene that would normally be reserved for Loghain's Joining, she will admit that the punishment was just.  She got the bulk of what she wanted, even if she would have preferred that her father live.  The fact that she's willing to just let that go because she's Queen, and knows it's secure says a lot about her too.  She did what she had to do to win, and is willing to accept Loghain's "sacrifice" as part of the deal.

[Ulicus]

Colenda wrote...

ETA:

Loghain's dialogue on Anora:

PC: Were you really going to kill Anora?
Loghain: Anora always did have a flair for the dramatic. She could have been a bard.
PC: Why would she invent such a story?
Loghain: I didn't say that. Howe suggested the possibility; I rejected it, of course. Undoubtedly, that discussion was the inspiration for her story. Anora is a politician at heart. There's one thing she knows: it's how to move people.
PC: Why me, though?
Loghain: Is that a serious question? Is there someone else you know of who could stand up to the Landsmeet?

Every time I've had this conversation, the bolded part hasn't been there... bug?