230 réponses à ce sujet

[Love Sherri]

Salfin wrote...

So instead of playing the ending and coming to your own conclusions you read what a bunch of other people thought about it, and watched other peoples playthroughs?

I just want to make sure I understand how you came to this conclusion.

So you're saying their is a vastly different story line between watching a movie in theather, at home on DVD, or from a utorrent download on your computer?  That the movie changes depending on its location?

Please enlighten me on what additional facts I may have missed by watching the ending on YouTube compared to on my TV monitor.

Modifié par Love Sherri, 12 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[LinksOcarina]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

[ snip ]

The real issues with the gaming industry is not just how publishers treat developers, not how there is stagnation in design or a lack of new ideas, and its not crap  like this Mass Effect 3 controversy. In the end, the biggest issue with the gaming industry is the eventual self-implosion of its fans, because the fans become a bitter, paranoid rabble over what they percieve as an issue of trust and understanding.

You have very strange ideas about customer service... I'm saving this quote. This will be gold in my MBA class reviewing the downfall of the gaming industry. 

The gaming is in no downfall at all, so I don't think your MBA professor will be impressed by a gross presumption.

And for the record, the fans are only one part of the equasion, everything else above is still involved, but its magnifed by the fans ever growing-malice and malcontent.
 

[LinksOcarina]

daaaav wrote...

75 perfect reviews say something is indeed quite wrong with your chosen profession. If you don't understand why people are pissed off that Bioware offered a cameo to someone from the biggest game review institution, then the problem is bigger than we think...

Your correct that people will never be satisfied but that doesn't mean that their critisism is void.

First off, IGN is a crap review site and everyone in the industry knows it, just doesn't admit it outright. And yeah, they should not have reviewed the game because of a conflict of interest.  So yeah, people should be pissed of at that, thats obvious. As for the review scores, I talked about that elsewhere, basically most reviewers out there are just bad reviewers who can't convey any context in their review, and that is problem the journalism side of things needs to fix. 

And I never said their criticism is void. In fact, I want to see more criticism. But I want the bull**** to be filtered form it. The dramatic "no respect" lines, the FTC complaints, a cupcake drive to the home offices and a charity for them to change and ending, that is just a circus that gets us nowhere, and just makes people look petty and, quite frankly, dickish.

[Binary_Helix 1]

DaosX wrote...

Doesn't really change my perception of the industry...just Bioware. Complete loss of faith in Bioware. Assuredly, I will not be buying Dragon Age 3 anywhere near launch (sorry DA3 devs, it's not you I hate but your coworkers who effed up ME3).

Saw a few comments on Capcom. In a way, I'm kind of surprised they're still around...I haven't bought a Capcom game in ages purely out of spite. I hate their practices, policies, etc. Bioware is very close to that level for me...at this point, I will only buy a Bioware game when it's at least 1 year past launch when it retails for $20 or less.

Capcom produces a lot of crap but their numbered Resident Evil games are still triple A.

[Frybread76]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

[ snip ]

The real issues with the gaming industry is not just how publishers treat developers, not how there is stagnation in design or a lack of new ideas, and its not crap  like this Mass Effect 3 controversy. In the end, the biggest issue with the gaming industry is the eventual self-implosion of its fans, because the fans become a bitter, paranoid rabble over what they percieve as an issue of trust and understanding.

You have very strange ideas about customer service... I'm saving this quote. This will be gold in my MBA class reviewing the downfall of the gaming industry. 

The gaming is in no downfall at all, so I don't think your MBA professor will be impressed by a gross presumption.

And for the record, the fans are only one part of the equasion, everything else above is still involved, but its magnifed by the fans ever growing-malice and malcontent.
 

Gaming in no downfall?  LOL.  Again, another who blames the customers.  It's OUR fault for the state of the gaming industry, not the developers who push games out a year before they are ready.

[robertthebard]

Since I rather enjoyed the game, not much at all. I thought they spread the ending out too long, it should have ended at the beam in London.

[LinksOcarina]

Frybread76 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

[ snip ]

The real issues with the gaming industry is not just how publishers treat developers, not how there is stagnation in design or a lack of new ideas, and its not crap  like this Mass Effect 3 controversy. In the end, the biggest issue with the gaming industry is the eventual self-implosion of its fans, because the fans become a bitter, paranoid rabble over what they percieve as an issue of trust and understanding.

You have very strange ideas about customer service... I'm saving this quote. This will be gold in my MBA class reviewing the downfall of the gaming industry. 

The gaming is in no downfall at all, so I don't think your MBA professor will be impressed by a gross presumption.

And for the record, the fans are only one part of the equasion, everything else above is still involved, but its magnifed by the fans ever growing-malice and malcontent.
 

Gaming in no downfall?  LOL.  Again, another who blames the customers.  It's OUR fault for the state of the gaming industry, not the developers who push games out a year before they are ready.

Actually, its the fault of the entire industry as a whole, as well as outlying factors that people tend to forget to include, such as innovations in new tech, lack of control and regulation, emerging gaming markets, and the state of the world economy. 

But its also the fault of the customers for being at times immature, indecisive, conniving, and downright mean-spirited about a pastime that they care about. Truth of the matter is everyone is wrong, people just refuse to see that. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[daecath]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I was already fairly cynical, but BioWare was one of the last developers I had total faith in.
I defended DA2 and SWTOR and I stood by them. Then came ME3 and I realised just how far they had fallen.

ME3's ending was so horrifically bad it took me several weeks before I got interested in gaming again, because ME3 flat out killed it. It was such a blow to see my absolute favourite sci-fi universe and one of my most beloved series shredded before my very eyes.

The EC patches a few things, such as, you know, the galaxy being destroyed. But they insisted on keeping setting-killing elements like the spacebaby and with that, lost any respect I ever had for them.

See, this is the attitude I hate. "I lost respect for them" or other ultimatums, threats and, to be frank, childish claims like this are really ridiculous to make in the grand scheme of this entire controversy.

Why? Because all BioWare has done is cater to their fans. When fans said the Mako was terribly implemented, they took it out in Mass Effect 2.

Yeah that's great customer service. "Waiter, there's a fly in my soup." "Fine, no soup for you!"

LinksOcarina wrote...
When fans said the combat was pretty bad, they revamped it for 2.

This one could go either way. Personally I prefered ME1 combat in many respects to 2, but ok. I'm willing to give this one.

LinksOcarina wrote...
When they said that there were no role-playing elements in Mass Effect 2, they brought back modifications and a new RPG system for 3. 

No, they put in character customization elements. They actually removed many RPG elements, like, oh I don't know, actually being able to Play the Role that you want to. Autodialog and lack of dialog options really dumbed down the actual role playing elements of the game.

LinksOcarina wrote...
When fans complained about the ending, they made an extended cut to bring that closure they did miss.

A token gesture because they had to. They did the absolute bare minimum, didn't address any of the fundamental problems with the end, and included the one element that most people were asking for, but turned it into a giant FU __|__ to the people that wanted it.

LinksOcarina wrote...
As a fan, a game reviewer, and a guy that just became an accredited academic, I have realized something in my twenty-five years of life; people are never satisified. Oh, a person can be satisified, a person can enjoy something and find meaning in even the most insignificant detail of a moment from any media, but when that moment is changed or tampered with, people defend the euphoric feelings like a junkie fighting for a fix, and it makes them ugly and unfortunately cynical of things that they, in the end, have no clue as to what is really going.

blogs.scientificamerican.com/literally-psyched/2012/07/09/lessons-from-sherlock-holmes-how-do-you-kill-your-hero/
Mass Effect established a certain set of expectations with the first two games. Everyone will tell Shepard that it's impossible. Shepard will assemble a rag-tag team of misfits to take on the impossible. Shepard will accomplish the impossible. Celebrate, rinse, and repeat. ME3, and the ending in particular, betrayed those expectations. Worse, they betrayed the expectations of the entire media. It's a video game, and like it or not, that carries certain expectations as well. One of those expectations is the ability to actually win the game. To be able to have the happy ending presuming you did everything "right" according to the game. ME3 betrayed those expectations as well.

As for your last sentance, well, I have no clue what you're really talking about, so ok then.

LinksOcarina wrote...

See, a lot of what I see now a days is just pessismistic, cynical bull**** that people spout without any context except for what they think is true. Reggie Fils-Aime of Nintendo even commented about this, how fans were underwhelmed with the reception of Nintendo Games, yet they wanted those same games (like Pikmin 3, being the cited one) and demanded them for five years. Then all of a sudden, "ok, not good enough?" He finds it off putting that fans are never satisfied, although one may argue that thats a sign of a good developer because it means a fanbase does care for their products and will buy them again in the end anyway, acting as if the complaining never happened.  (which I suspect is the case for BioWare, no one wants to admit it though because of mob mentality and how the boards are.) 

Then perhaps you would care to enlighten us, oh great and powerful one, what exactly are we supposed to think? What is the reality here? EA didn't actually cut the development time in half, while tacking on an entirely new component, while in the middle of continuing to develop content for ME2? There are actually the same number of dialog choices in your conversations as there were in 1 and 2, and those dialog choices occur with the same frequency? They didn't really write a deus ex machina ending, giving the reapers a ridiculous premise to justify their actions that wasn't supported at all anywhere in the rest of the game? And then tell Shepard to commit suicide simply because his enemy tells him to? So the ending really does show you directly how your choices mattered in the final battle? You saw rachni fighting reapers, krogan riding dinosaurs, Jack and her students tearing apart reaper forces, geth and quarians fighting side by side? You have 16 wildly different endings, that weren't simply an "ABC" choice? 

If so, what game were you playing, because that's the game I paid for that I never got.

You want to know what satisfies a fan? Keeping your promises. Delivering what you said you would. Making a game that is true to itself and the franchise. Not treating players like your own personal piggy bank with gimmicks like day 1 DLC, microtransactions, etc. but instead actually respecting them. Listening when they deliver constructive criticism and then fixing those elements that are wrong.

LinksOcarina wrote...

The real issues with the gaming industry is not just how publishers treat developers, not how there is stagnation in design or a lack of new ideas, and its not crap  like this Mass Effect 3 controversy. In the end, the biggest issue with the gaming industry is the eventual self-implosion of its fans, because the fans become a bitter, paranoid rabble over what they percieve as an issue of trust and understanding.

No, the biggest issue is that the corporate culture that has invaded the rest of entertainment has finally invaded gaming, resulting in companies that see games as a way of making money, rather than actually caring about making good games and letting the money making aspect follow from that.

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare is not out to make you respect them, BioWare is out there to make games.

No, BioWare USED to be out to make games, now they serve EA who is out there to make money. Period.

LinksOcarina wrote...

The fact that they actually listened to their fans, and  took all the negative feedback with as much professionalism as humanely possible  shows that they care about there fans, something only 3 other comapnies I can think of have done so in the past, (Bethesda, Suker Punch and Atlus) So if anything, you should be giving respect to BioWare for trying to placate you, as a fan, because most companies would do nothing for you. 

But a snake always eats its tail in the end, doesn't it...

They didn't listen to their fans, they selectively listened to what they wanted to hear when it became clear that they could no longer ignore us. If they were actually listening, they would at least engage us in dialog. They would tell us what they hell they were thinking by including the catalyst, by changing the premise of the game, by making all those decisions that they made that led us here. At this point I know that there's no way that we'll get the ending that the game deserves, but at the very least, they could respect us enough to tell us why they made those choices. Instead, they ignore us, belittle us, and let appologists fight their battles for them.

[CELL55]

I couldn't play anything for a full month after 'beating' ME3 (and I use the term 'beating' in the loosest possible meaning). And I'm practically a videogame addict. I beat ME3 in just under 3 days, and that would have been less if not for work. I still have no idea how the same people who made ME3-last 10 minutes were the same people who made the last ten minutes. And the Extended Cut only fixed surface issues, while failing to address the big problems (Deus Ex Machina, Thematic Betrayal, etc.). This is like rolling 50 consecutive critical fails in DND. It simply shouldn't be possible.

[Conniving_Eagle]

CELL55 wrote...

I couldn't play anything for a full month after 'beating' ME3 (and I use the term 'beating' in the loosest possible meaning). And I'm practically a videogame addict. I beat ME3 in just under 3 days, and that would have been less if not for work. I still have no idea how the same people who made ME3-last 10 minutes were the same people who made the last ten minutes. And the Extended Cut only fixed surface issues, while failing to address the big problems (Deus Ex Machina, Thematic Betrayal, etc.). This is like rolling 50 consecutive critical fails in DND. It simply shouldn't be possible.

Supposedly the ending was written by Casey Hudson and Mac Walters, and everyone else had to go along with it.

[CELL55]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

CELL55 wrote...

I couldn't play anything for a full month after 'beating' ME3 (and I use the term 'beating' in the loosest possible meaning). And I'm practically a videogame addict. I beat ME3 in just under 3 days, and that would have been less if not for work. I still have no idea how the same people who made ME3-last 10 minutes were the same people who made the last ten minutes. And the Extended Cut only fixed surface issues, while failing to address the big problems (Deus Ex Machina, Thematic Betrayal, etc.). This is like rolling 50 consecutive critical fails in DND. It simply shouldn't be possible.

Supposedly the ending was written by Casey Hudson and Mac Walters, and everyone else had to go along with it.

I heard about that, I just don't know whether to believe it or not. I mean for me, ME3 was the best game I had ever played until the ending. I was literally sitting there playing it, thinking "This is the best game I have ever played" until the ending hit. I just can't understand how it is possible to go from the best thing ever to the worst thing ever. The contrast is just too severe for human folly to be believable, but can I really blame malevolence? I just don't know, and I can't trust them not to make the same mistake in the future. 

[robertthebard]

daecath wrote...

blogs.scientificamerican.com/literally-psyched/2012/07/09/lessons-from-sherlock-holmes-how-do-you-kill-your-hero/
Mass Effect established a certain set of expectations with the first two games. Everyone will tell Shepard that it's impossible. Shepard will assemble a rag-tag team of misfits to take on the impossible. Shepard will accomplish the impossible. Celebrate, rinse, and repeat. ME3, and the ending in particular, betrayed those expectations. Worse, they betrayed the expectations of the entire media. It's a video game, and like it or not, that carries certain expectations as well. One of those expectations is the ability to actually win the game. To be able to have the happy ending presuming you did everything "right" according to the game. ME3 betrayed those expectations as well. 

Sometimes people say things are impossible because they are, and frankly, looking at the area around the beam in London, it should have been Game Over right there.  Sorry if that adversely affects your expectations, but sometimes, there is no happy ending.  I really believe this should have been one of those times.  It didn't matter how hard somebody tried, for untold millenia, the Reapers have been reaping, and it's not like they were just picking on underdeveloped races, they were taking out the most advanced civilizations in the Galaxy.  This isn't Cincerella, there is no glass slipper, and there is no prince waiting to take Shepard away from all this death.  There is only the reality, in game, of at least three Reapers guarding the beam, and for some reason, they decide not to nuke everyone until there are no survivors, and then sit there and wait for those that did manage to fall back to try again.

That's the issue though, good bad or indifferent about the endings, people expected to ride off into the sunset, and it didn't happen.  I wonder how bad the community would have blown up if after you fall in London, it started rolling the end credits?  I would have been LMFAO at it, and that's the ending I believe should have been it.

[Mimitochan]

robertthebard wrote...

daecath wrote...

blogs.scientificamerican.com/literally-psyched/2012/07/09/lessons-from-sherlock-holmes-how-do-you-kill-your-hero/
Mass Effect established a certain set of expectations with the first two games. Everyone will tell Shepard that it's impossible. Shepard will assemble a rag-tag team of misfits to take on the impossible. Shepard will accomplish the impossible. Celebrate, rinse, and repeat. ME3, and the ending in particular, betrayed those expectations. Worse, they betrayed the expectations of the entire media. It's a video game, and like it or not, that carries certain expectations as well. One of those expectations is the ability to actually win the game. To be able to have the happy ending presuming you did everything "right" according to the game. ME3 betrayed those expectations as well. 

Sometimes people say things are impossible because they are, and frankly, looking at the area around the beam in London, it should have been Game Over right there.  Sorry if that adversely affects your expectations, but sometimes, there is no happy ending.  I really believe this should have been one of those times.  It didn't matter how hard somebody tried, for untold millenia, the Reapers have been reaping, and it's not like they were just picking on underdeveloped races, they were taking out the most advanced civilizations in the Galaxy.  This isn't Cincerella, there is no glass slipper, and there is no prince waiting to take Shepard away from all this death.  There is only the reality, in game, of at least three Reapers guarding the beam, and for some reason, they decide not to nuke everyone until there are no survivors, and then sit there and wait for those that did manage to fall back to try again.

That's the issue though, good bad or indifferent about the endings, people expected to ride off into the sunset, and it didn't happen.  I wonder how bad the community would have blown up if after you fall in London, it started rolling the end credits?  I would have been LMFAO at it, and that's the ending I believe should have been it.

Do you actually believe that? Or are you playing tough cynical just for the sake of it?
Cause you know, if you'd actually be "LYFAO" after spending 100+ hours and some amount of money to just stand there in front of your screen with a big "GAME OVER" nuked ending, well, all I can think of is that you've got a lot of time and a lot of money on your hands.

Seriously, we're not talking about a bedtime fairytale here.
We're not talking about real life - please, all of you just stop with the "happy endings are overrated", "life is tough, kid" thing.
We're not talking about a 100% passive form of entertainment,  such as say, a movie, where it's actually common to have tragic and/or open to interpretations endings. 

We're talking about a video game.

The implicit contract between the game creator and the player is that if the player follow the rules, he/she will win the game, i.e. will be rewarded. That's why the player agrees to play by the rules and to spend some of his/her leisure time on the game. That's why the consumer agrees to give his/her money.
So it's just very obvious, whether as a player or a consumer, to have expectations.

That's the common bottomline for all types of players.

Now, on a more individual basis, ME players have very various levels of emotional investment in the franchise (for instance, some will actually dream about blue babies, others just didn't romance anyone because it didn't fit Shepard's character and couldn't care less about romance in ME). Also they appreciate different types of gameplay (ME3 can hardly be called a RPG game anymore): over the years, the ME franchise has expanded to very different game genres, a ME3 newbie is hardly the same type of gamer as the ME1 hardcore fan.
 
So, it is very obviously difficult for a game to unanimously please all of these different types of gamers.
Of course, there are economic stakes in play. Game development is no charity business. Today, more than ever, it is about marketing, PR, advertising. But there are priorities.

Game development is about creative interactive entertainment.
Quality game development is not about trying to please every single player out there. It's about standing for the experience you want to deliver, for a consistent vision, about establishing loveable trademarks, certainly not about fanservice. How I would have loved the Mako to be perfected, enhanced, instead of just being thrown away! And we're just talking about gameplay here.

If we're going into storytelling, then there's this recent post from TullyAckland (and by all means, I genuinely and warmly thank him for posting this) >

 

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't pay to have my own imagination at work, or for ME3 to be some source of artistic inspiration, thank you.
That's precisely the other way around.
I fully expect game developers and writers to give me "canon".
I expect them to tell me a story (a very good and endearing one is a bonus) and let me be part of it.
Why would I bother spend money and time on them if not?

Modifié par Mimitochan, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .

[robertthebard]

Mimitochan wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

daecath wrote...

blogs.scientificamerican.com/literally-psyched/2012/07/09/lessons-from-sherlock-holmes-how-do-you-kill-your-hero/
Mass Effect established a certain set of expectations with the first two games. Everyone will tell Shepard that it's impossible. Shepard will assemble a rag-tag team of misfits to take on the impossible. Shepard will accomplish the impossible. Celebrate, rinse, and repeat. ME3, and the ending in particular, betrayed those expectations. Worse, they betrayed the expectations of the entire media. It's a video game, and like it or not, that carries certain expectations as well. One of those expectations is the ability to actually win the game. To be able to have the happy ending presuming you did everything "right" according to the game. ME3 betrayed those expectations as well. 

Sometimes people say things are impossible because they are, and frankly, looking at the area around the beam in London, it should have been Game Over right there.  Sorry if that adversely affects your expectations, but sometimes, there is no happy ending.  I really believe this should have been one of those times.  It didn't matter how hard somebody tried, for untold millenia, the Reapers have been reaping, and it's not like they were just picking on underdeveloped races, they were taking out the most advanced civilizations in the Galaxy.  This isn't Cincerella, there is no glass slipper, and there is no prince waiting to take Shepard away from all this death.  There is only the reality, in game, of at least three Reapers guarding the beam, and for some reason, they decide not to nuke everyone until there are no survivors, and then sit there and wait for those that did manage to fall back to try again.

That's the issue though, good bad or indifferent about the endings, people expected to ride off into the sunset, and it didn't happen.  I wonder how bad the community would have blown up if after you fall in London, it started rolling the end credits?  I would have been LMFAO at it, and that's the ending I believe should have been it.

Do you actually believe that? Or are you playing tough cynical just for the sake of it?
Cause you know, if you'd actually be "LYFAO" after spending 100+ hours and some amount of money to just stand there in front of your screen with a big "GAME OVER" nuked ending, well, all I can think of is that you've got a lot of time and a lot of money on your hands.

Seriously, we're not talking about a bedtime fairytale here.
We're not talking about real life - please, all of you just stop with the "happy endings are overrated", "life is tough, kid" thing.
We're not talking about a 100% passive form of entertainment,  such as say, a movie, where it's actually common to have tragic and/or open to interpretations endings. 

We're talking about a video game.

The implicit contract between the game creator and the player is that if the player follow the rules, he/she will win the game, i.e. will be rewarded. That's why the player agrees to play by the rules and to spend some of his/her leisure time on the game. That's why the consumer agrees to give his/her money.
So it's just very obvious, whether as a player or a consumer, to have expectations.

That's the common bottomline for all types of players.

Now, on a more individual basis, ME players have very various levels of emotional investment in the franchise (for instance, some will actually dream about blue babies, others just didn't romance anyone because it didn't fit Shepard's character and couldn't care less about romance in ME). Also they appreciate different types of gameplay (ME3 can hardly be called a RPG game anymore): over the years, the ME franchise has expanded to very different game genres, a ME3 newbie is hardly the same type of gamer as the ME1 hardcore fan.
 
So, it is very obviously difficult for a game to unanimously please all of these different types of gamers.
Of course, there are economic stakes in play. Game development is no charity business. Today, more than ever, it is about marketing, PR, advertising. But there are priorities.

Game development is about creative interactive entertainment.
Quality game development is not about trying to please every single player out there. It's about standing for the experience you want to deliver, for a consistent vision, about establishing loveable trademarks, certainly not about fanservice. How I would have loved the Mako to be perfected, enhanced, instead of just being thrown away! And we're just talking about gameplay here.

If we're going into storytelling, then there's this recent post from TullyAckland (and by all means, I genuinely and warmly thank him for posting this) >

 

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't pay to have my own imagination at work, or for ME3 to be some source of artistic inspiration, thank you.
That's precisely the other way around.
I fully expect game developers and writers to give me "canon".
I expect them to tell me a story (a very good and endearing one is a bonus) and let me be part of it.
Why would I bother spend money and time on them if not?

Since I have all three games, and Digital Deluxe versions, I guess I'd be LMFAO, since that's what I wrote.  I've got more than 100 hours invested, easily, I've probably got that invested in ME 1.  But let's look at this from another angle shall we?  It took the combined fleets of the Galaxy to take down Sovereign, and some Geth.  The Geth are no where near as powerful as Sovereign, so how is it that they are going to be infinitely more successful against multiple Reapers?  How are ground troops going to do?  Who's using the aiming device that we used on Rannoch to focus fire all assets on one target when it's vulnerable, and what are the rest of the Reapers doing while that's going on?  Standing around watching?

Everybody got a big handwave for endings, from what I understand even before EC, since my version of 3 came with it, I wouldn't know.  After all, everyone that played prior to EC got to live through the counterattack at the beam in London.  But you are absolutely correct, we're not talking about a bed time fairy tale, yet the endings as they are now are just that.  Otherwise the end credits would have rolled in London.

[Blueprotoss]

Love Sherri wrote...

Want to know a secret?  I've never finished ME3.  

I stopped right before TIM's base.  Why?  I got bored at that time.  My Shepard had been reduced to a walking-conversation over hearer with absolutely no social skills.  I planned on finishing the game regardless of my initial disapoint, really I did.  Everything changed in a matter of 30 minutes.  I got out of my gaming chair,  I googled the ending to get some tactics and spoilers (I don't mind spoilers), intent on pressing on....  And that's when I found out.

In the span of minutes, everything I though about Bioware literally flew out the window.  I watched all the endings, read all the reviews....

I didn't pick up the xbox controller again for months.  For some reason, being so disappointed by ME3, left a bad taste in my mouth.  No video game instrested me anymore. Not even Skyrim.  When the EC was announced, I still didn't play.  When the EC was released, I still haven't finished. I YouTubed everything.  I saw the changes, was still disappointed.  It was better... but really, come on.

Remember this?  

 

Yup, can't say that anymore.

I picked up the controller the other day and started playing xbox again for the first time in months.  What did I play?

KOTOR

Ironic.  :-)  

You clearly haven't played that many games in the last decade based your tantrum.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:45 .

[Blueprotoss]

CELL55 wrote...

I couldn't play anything for a full month after 'beating' ME3 (and I use the term 'beating' in the loosest possible meaning). And I'm practically a videogame addict. I beat ME3 in just under 3 days, and that would have been less if not for work. I still have no idea how the same people who made ME3-last 10 minutes were the same people who made the last ten minutes. And the Extended Cut only fixed surface issues, while failing to address the big problems (Deus Ex Machina, Thematic Betrayal, etc.). This is like rolling 50 consecutive critical fails in DND. It simply shouldn't be possible.

The irony here is that you're talking about DnD here since its ever changing based on the players
and the DM.

Conniving_Eagle wrote... 

Supposedly the ending was written by Casey Hudson and Mac Walters, and everyone else had to go along with it.

 Yet this just another straw-mann like Chris Metzen in Starcraft 2,  but the difference is that Lead Directors aren't the Writers.

robertthebard wrote...

Since I have all three games, and Digital Deluxe versions, I guess I'd be LMFAO, since that's what I wrote.  I've got more than 100 hours invested, easily, I've probably got that invested in ME 1.  But let's look at this from another angle shall we?  It took the combined fleets of the Galaxy to take down Sovereign, and some Geth.  The Geth are no where near as powerful as Sovereign, so how is it that they are going to be infinitely more successful against multiple Reapers?  How are ground troops going to do?  Who's using the aiming device that we used on Rannoch to focus fire all assets on one target when it's vulnerable, and what are the rest of the Reapers doing while that's going on?  Standing around watching?

Everybody got a big handwave for endings, from what I understand even before EC, since my version of 3 came with it, I wouldn't know.  After all, everyone that played prior to EC got to live through the counterattack at the beam in London.  But you are absolutely correct, we're not talking about a bed time fairy tale, yet the endings as they are now are just that.  Otherwise the end credits would have rolled in London.

This is very true.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .

[Daiyus]

The only thing that it's taught me is that we no longer live in a world where a product is sold "as is". Apparently enough uproar can, and will change almost anything. We are now living in a world where it will be considered the norm for developers to change their games post-release to the consumers whim, and what's more, for free.

I remember the days where you bought a game, and that was that. No patches, no DLC, no anything. If there was a bug, you worked around it, or wrote a patch yourself (not usually a tempting option).

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the EC, and appreciate that times do change. The technology exists for on the fly fixes, and that's great, and very useful. That said the whole way this ending fiasco has gone down just felt so childish.

I was never a pro-ender, but I didn't throw my doll out the pram. I just accepted it and moved on (and no, it didn't effect the rest of the series for me). I talked about it on the forums (when a mature conversation could be had). The swathes of "crybabies" DEMANDING a fix just infuriated me. By all means have petitions, but present them in a mature way (I am aware this did happen alongside the more childish stuff), argue objectively, and intellectually correct the developers. Dragging an unwilling charity into the fray was the last straw for me. I actually almost hoped BioWare would refuse to do anything. Unfortunately the type of reaction that was allowed to happen has paved the way for anything to be treated in a similar manner. Goodbye maturity, and hello self-entitlement getting their own way.

[Ridwan]

Daiyus wrote...

The only thing that it's taught me is that we no longer live in a world where a product is sold "as is". Apparently enough uproar can, and will change almost anything. We are now living in a world where it will be considered the norm for developers to change their games post-release to the consumers whim, and what's more, for free.

I remember the days where you bought a game, and that was that. No patches, no DLC, no anything. If there was a bug, you worked around it, or wrote a patch yourself (not usually a tempting option).

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the EC, and appreciate that times do change. The technology exists for on the fly fixes, and that's great, and very useful. That said the whole way this ending fiasco has gone down just felt so childish.

I was never a pro-ender, but I didn't throw my doll out the pram. I just accepted it and moved on (and no, it didn't effect the rest of the series for me). I talked about it on the forums (when a mature conversation could be had). The swathes of "crybabies" DEMANDING a fix just infuriated me. By all means have petitions, but present them in a mature way (I am aware this did happen alongside the more childish stuff), argue objectively, and intellectually correct the developers. Dragging an unwilling charity into the fray was the last straw for me. I actually almost hoped BioWare would refuse to do anything. Unfortunately the type of reaction that was allowed to happen has paved the way for anything to be treated in a similar manner. Goodbye maturity, and hello self-entitlement getting their own way.

So you prefer us to buy a shoddy inferior product instead of something that's polished or gets patched later for bugs?

Do you have family members working in the video game industry, cause that's horrible the idea of us being satisfied with buying an unfinished product.

[Daiyus]

M25105 wrote...

Daiyus wrote...

The only thing that it's taught me is that we no longer live in a world where a product is sold "as is". Apparently enough uproar can, and will change almost anything. We are now living in a world where it will be considered the norm for developers to change their games post-release to the consumers whim, and what's more, for free.

I remember the days where you bought a game, and that was that. No patches, no DLC, no anything. If there was a bug, you worked around it, or wrote a patch yourself (not usually a tempting option).

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the EC, and appreciate that times do change. The technology exists for on the fly fixes, and that's great, and very useful. That said the whole way this ending fiasco has gone down just felt so childish.

I was never a pro-ender, but I didn't throw my doll out the pram. I just accepted it and moved on (and no, it didn't effect the rest of the series for me). I talked about it on the forums (when a mature conversation could be had). The swathes of "crybabies" DEMANDING a fix just infuriated me. By all means have petitions, but present them in a mature way (I am aware this did happen alongside the more childish stuff), argue objectively, and intellectually correct the developers. Dragging an unwilling charity into the fray was the last straw for me. I actually almost hoped BioWare would refuse to do anything. Unfortunately the type of reaction that was allowed to happen has paved the way for anything to be treated in a similar manner. Goodbye maturity, and hello self-entitlement getting their own way.

So you prefer us to buy a shoddy inferior product instead of something that's polished or gets patched later for bugs?

Do you have family members working in the video game industry, cause that's horrible the idea of us being satisfied with buying an unfinished product.

Actually, I'm saying the opposite. Games should still come "finished" with patches and DLC solely enhancing. I appreciate the EC, and I really do appreciate BioWare doing something for the community on this scale. I'm not saying the resultant action is wrong. What I don't like is the attitudes of the majority that caused the movement. There was so little maturity involved it sets an unholy precedent of self-entitlism. Rather than requiring intellectual arguments, with a genuine cause and clear reasoning, we got a "gimme, gimme,gimme" attitude from the majority.

Wheras the first route would truly require solid reasoning to confirm something needs to be done, the route that was taken merely relied on peer pressure. It leaves it open for anyone to do the same over anything, and expect the same results, regardless if there's genuinely a problem or not.

Modifié par Daiyus, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:12 .

[Love Sherri]

Blueprotoss wrote...

You clearly haven't played that many games in the last decade based your tantrum.

Please tell me how wide spread your gaming taste is.

 

[Blueprotoss]

 

Daiyus wrote...

Actually, I'm saying the opposite. Games should still come "finished" with patches and DLC solely enhancing. I appreciate the EC, and I really do appreciate BioWare doing something for the community on this scale. I'm not saying the resultant action is wrong. What I don't like is the attitudes of the majority that caused the movement. There was so little maturity involved it sets an unholy precedent of self-entitlism. Rather than requiring intellectual arguments, with a genuine cause and clear reasoning, we got a "gimme, gimme,gimme" attitude from the majority.

Wheras the first route would truly require solid reasoning to confirm something needs to be done, the route that was taken merely relied on peer pressure. It leaves it open for anyone to do the same over anything, and expect the same results, regardless if there's genuinely a problem or not.

This is very and I still feel embarassed to be called a gamer after that small uproar. 

Love Sherri wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

You clearly haven't played that many games in the last decade based your tantrum.

Please tell me how wide spread your gaming taste is.

By starting on the NES and Super NES while they had a good amount of bugs in their games including the Mario and Zelda.  Btw insulting me won't help you with or without sarcasm.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:02 .

[simonrana]

rwilli80 wrote...

So one game should be an indictment on an entire industry?

Okay, I'll play along. Its ruined video games for me, I can no longer take any sort of pleasure from any of the games I play, it doesn't matter who made them or when they were made. I can't even go back and play classic SNES games because the ending of ME3 sucked so much!

It makes no sense whatsoever but I felt the same way! Can't explain why, that ending was just so unbelievably bad that it completely killed any desire to play any video game. Doesn't mean that the feeling is necessarily permanent of course, after a couple of months I randomly got the urge to play Kotor again of all things and after seeing the EC on youTube it seemed like enough of a patch up to make Mass Effect feel playable again (though it's still a poor ending).

[LinksOcarina]

daecath wrote...

They didn't listen to their fans, they selectively listened to what they wanted to hear when it became clear that they could no longer ignore us. If they were actually listening, they would at least engage us in dialog. They would tell us what they hell they were thinking by including the catalyst, by changing the premise of the game, by making all those decisions that they made that led us here. At this point I know that there's no way that we'll get the ending that the game deserves, but at the very least, they could respect us enough to tell us why they made those choices. Instead, they ignore us, belittle us, and let appologists fight their battles for them.

It's not a two way street. No offense, but you, as a fan, have no dialogue in this conversation other than your complaints. There is no group of apologists fighting their battles, or fans being belittled by the evil corporate overlords.  Just like how I , as a fan, can't demand changes to be made, you can't demand a seat at the table when you have no business being there to begin with. That is something WE as fans need to realize.

So keep thinking that they selectively listen to you. Go ahead, you ask me to tell you what to think, there you go.
Keep thinking they are ignoring you, and were willing to engage in a dialogue. Keep asking what the hell they were thinking about the ending. Seriously, go ahead. 

Keep complaining, don't buy their games from now on. Believe that they are taken over by EA and never were after making money. Believe that the multiplayer was tacked on, or that EA cut their hours of time on making the game. Believe that auto-dialogue ruins role-playing, or that the controls were too shooter-esque.  Hell, believe that companies like Sega and Nintendo were so pure and innocent back in the 1990s that it was all about the games.  Believe they did not  issue a good customer service by releasing the Extended Cut to attempt to fix their endings. Believe what you want in terms of this entire controversy, since in the end its all opinionated anyway and no one can prove a damn thing, except how long the game was made and why multiplayer was added, which we have quotes and things on that anyway. I don't care what you believe at all, to be honest, its your right and privledge as a fan to do so.

 But don't expect to be treated equally by anyone within the industry. Thats a myth and the gaming industry, just like every other media industry out there. It has little to do with corporatization or privatization of the industry, since that has been around since the 1970s.  You have no equal footing where you get a voice in the forum. You are simply wrong about that, so get  the f*ck off your high horse and realize one thing: The gaming industry has always been out for themselves, from the indie guys to the big corporations. It always will be, despite the creation of amazing games that are both meaningful and artistic. You want that change, you want that seat at the table? Simple really, don't buy the stuff you don't like, or make your own damn game and push for it.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .

[Love Sherri]

Blueprotoss wrote...

By starting on the NES and Super NES while they had a good amount of bugs in their games including the Mario and Zelda.  Btw insulting me won't help you with or without sarcasm.

You threw the first punch by replying to my thread.

Here, let me quote it for you so you can see again:

Blueprotoss wrote...

You clearly haven't played that many games in the last decade based your tantrum.

Please, tell me again on how insulted you feel.

Modifié par Love Sherri, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:34 .

[Blueprotoss]

Love Sherri wrote...

You threw the first punch by replying to my thread.

Here, let me quote it for you so you can see again:

Thats funny based on how replying doesn't start a fight and its ironic on how angry you were for no
real reason.  Btw I don't control what you say.

Love Sherri wrote... 

Please, tell me again on how insulted you feel.

Your general attititude towards people like you're holier than thou.