242 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Seriously OP? This is a massive, FREE update. If this was CoD or Gears it would cost at least 10$. They are adding maps, completely new characters with NEW POWERS, a new game mode, and an entirely new level of difficulty...

And you're complaining that the new models are reskins? Who gives a crap? And besides, wouldn't that make sense in-universe? Using the same armor and weapons?

The OP is not complaining, he is criticising, there is a distinct difference.  He offered criticism on reused assets, for which Bioware has been criticised before.

He did not demand changes, he offered his opinion on the art direction.

[ntrisley]

Aethyl wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

Core_Commander wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

"Top of the line human military gear" is that which Shepard wears is depicted as wearing from the very start just as a note.

They painted themselves, effectively, into a corner by using the various 'stock' armor permutations from single player I think.

Also:
Cerberus uses custom gear. They manufacture it themselves. Any examples of it used by Alliance forces is captured gear, not bought off the shelf.

Well, obviously there are variations of said gear. Kaidan's gear is also used by Engineer, variation of Ashley's jumpsuit/armor is used by Cerberus phantoms. It makes sense in that way, Cerberus (a human-centric group) would likely iterate on Alliance gear, and sometimes even alien gear instead of building their own from scratch. Example: Mattock being upgraded into Harrier, Raptor being based on a turian rifle, Centurions using Mattocks, Engineers with Phalanxes.

When a "new" look is needed, BW went for that (batarian/turian/asari weapons). Cerberus had a human-like looks from the start, using gear based on human military. Now we get more human military, that's all.

Again.

That's the problem.
It's human military, not Cerberus.
Do you see what I'm getting at here?

There's no reason for us to get "Alliance Phantoms" or "Alliance Sith Sorcerers". If they want them to have lighter armor, there's the Marine variant gear which Kaidan and Vega can wear.

Actually, it's N7 operatives, just like our Shepard is.
And our shepard isn't always seen wearing military grade armors, he can even wear cerberus armor or a variant of the collector's one.
Those are special units from the military, which can actually wear what they want, having less restraints from the higher authorities.

Which I've already acknowledged.

However, Shepard can arguably be seen as having a whole heck of a lot more leeway given that not only is he Alliance Special Forces--he is also a Spectre.

No matter how you spin it, these characters just don't make sense for a military operation. The Shadow and Fury should have been Drell characters given these skill sets, not Alliance Special Forces.

[LGear]

[quote]ntrisley wrote...

Mattocks are no longer manufactured. In ME2, The Ilusive Man actually sends you an email saying that Cerberus is going to begin producing the Mattock in large numbers for Cerberus forces based upon your "trial run" of a "modified variant".
[/quote]

"They've been modified for thermal clips, but the rest of the rifle should be the old, reliable gun that colonist militias have been using for decades. "

The wording of said letter, which states the full extent of the modifications. Also, what letter stated the trial runs?

quote]Which we don't have an exact timeline on.
Consider that the Eagle is the Alliance already trying to step up something to beat the Phalanx.
[/quote]

And the Eagle was developed as an update to the Alliance Offensive Handgun Project. A project of the Alliance's own initiative, no Cerberus prodding whatsoever. 

[quote]The timeframe of the Valkyrie coming into full-scale production and usage coincides with Cerberus becoming a large threat, after Shepard has left. [/quote]

It states this where exactly? We don't have a timeline for the Valkyrie entering service, and as shown by the Mattock, weapons that don't appear in prequels don't necessarily imply them to be "brand new", rather that they're just out of sight. For all we know, given the speed at which fabrication, manufacturing and distribution occurs in ME (case in point: Thermal Clips), that the Valkyrie had been in service long before Cerberus became a true threat.  

[quote]And aside from the Valkyrie, none are in full scale production or distribution.

Because the Alliance does not own the production or distribution capabilities to effectively get them out there. That is, supposedly, why they are designated as "Ultra Rares" in MP.[/quote]

They're "Ultra Rare" as far as the MP goes sure. And yet the N7 Hurricane is stated to be: "
Alliance officers were so pleased with field results that the Hurricane is now many squadrons' standard-issue SMG". The Crusader is said to be "
primarily used by highly trained soldiers.", which does not tell how many are produced, though it implies that if it isn't widespread, that it's due less to manufacturing and distribution abilities and more due to field requirements. 

[quote]

The alternate appearance outfits used by Kaidan and James, by the by, are those which are used by the Alliance Marines...which are a major military force and numerous enough that it's downright impossible for someone within the Mass Effect universe to not know how they look.
[/quote]

This changes the argument none, since there's still the fact that Cerberus Combat Engineers are using a Alliance uniform design which, as you note, "is impossible to not know how they look". 

[quote]
Certainly.
However, as I mentioned, Cerberus does things the Alliance does not.
We do not have "Indoctrinated" forces among the Alliance in anything aside from a psychological sense.
We do not have things like the facility on Pragia.

[/quote]

Which has no bearing on the Alliance's tech development and proliferation abilities whatsoever. It simply means that the Alliance and Cerberus have differing ways of getting their technologies, with the latter being more brutal about it. But as I've already outlined with the above, the Alliance is perfectly capable of developing advanced weapons and armor (and by extension, combat doctrines) by themselves without the need to respond to Cerberus prodding. 

Cerberus only lasted as long as it did due to the underhanded tactics they utilized. Once the tables were turned on them, Cerberus got absolutely curbstomped. 

Modifié par LGear, 11 juillet 2012 - 07:04 .

[ntrisley]

Uchimura wrote...

Sure, these models aren't 'new'. But they've always been good. There was a lot of variety in SP and they're just copy pasting some to MP, which was more or less inevitable. Not really seeing the issue.. (except the demolisher helm is redundant within MP ): )

The Harrier is not a reskinned Mattock, it's just in a similar style.

Actually, the Harrier is a reskinned Mattock.

Read the description on it. It is a standard Mattock, modified by Cerberus armorers to have full automatic fire and issued to members of their more "elite" forces such as the Phoenix Project members that we saw in Mass Effect: Infiltrator.

[NCRZombie]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

NCRZombie wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Cypher61 wrote...

[...]

I respect the OP's comments, he has the absolute right to make them. But i have to disagree with his statements.

If Bioware were to create new models for every DLC, it would cost.  And I guarentee if people had to pay for multiplayer DLC, there would be people complaining about it, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.

More than that I do and can not ask for. I can always agree on me and others disagreeing as long as opinions are treated fairly and openminded. Thank you.

A thing which is sadly not so common nowadays as some responses in this topic have proven.

<Snip>

Contrary to what this article implies, I wouldn't complain if the DLC where up to my set of standards. I do not have unreasonable standards too: I didn't complain about about the first or second DLC. I did not quite like the original endings, but I lived with it and was not one of the people demanding this or that.

Calling me entitled in this context would be inappropriate.

Not you specifically, but someone would complain. That's just how this community is; if not you or me then someone  else.

If you specifically feel you deserve something better for free then it's a sense of entitlment.

If they release this for $5-10 and it was reskins I'd say go for it, but they didn't. Offer a suggestion outside of DLC that hasn't come out yet instead of offering criticism for something that's not even out yet discuss it as a suggestion for another DLC pack that may or may not come out in the future. Just don't throw the new DLC under the bus without having experienced any of it yet.

[Magicman10893]

Beerfish wrote...

Sure they can do all of what you wish. Fork over 560 ms points.

I would honestly prefer to pay 560 ms points for the DLC if it meant I got to actually experience all the content. I finally got the Batarian Soldier just a few days ago, and that was mostly due to the fact they fixed the store system (slightly) so that I stopped getting rare character cards for the characters I had maxed. Given my previous record with Ultra Rares and with getting DLC items I will mostly likely never get the Harrier before the community moves on to a new game and leaves this game dead.

[ntrisley]

[quote]LGear wrote...

[quote]ntrisley wrote...

Mattocks are no longer manufactured. In ME2, The Ilusive Man actually sends you an email saying that Cerberus is going to begin producing the Mattock in large numbers for Cerberus forces based upon your "trial run" of a "modified variant".
[/quote]

"They've been modified for thermal clips, but the rest of the rifle should be the old, reliable gun that colonist militias have been using for decades. "

The wording of said letter, which states the full extent of the modifications. Also, what letter stated the trial runs?[/quote]
I'm almost positive there is a follow-up letter at some point before the Collector Base.

[quote][quote]Which we don't have an exact timeline on.
Consider that the Eagle is the Alliance already trying to step up something to beat the Phalanx.
[/quote]

And the Eagle was developed as an update to the Alliance Offensive Handgun Project. A project of the Alliance's own initiative, no Cerberus prodding whatsoever. [/quote]
I know. But you seem to have missed the point.
The Phalanx has been in service long enough to get into widespread black market circulation and for the Alliance to begin commencing a project to replace it.
When you're dealing with government agencies, they don't do something like that lightly.
[quote]
[quote]The timeframe of the Valkyrie coming into full-scale production and usage coincides with Cerberus becoming a large threat, after Shepard has left. [/quote]

It states this where exactly? We don't have a timeline for the Valkyrie entering service, and as shown by the Mattock, weapons that don't appear in prequels don't necessarily imply them to be "brand new", rather that they're just out of sight. For all we know, given the speed at which fabrication, manufacturing and distribution occurs in ME (case in point: Thermal Clips), that the Valkyrie had been in service long before Cerberus became a true threat.[/quote]
We see no NPCs using Valkyries in ME3 or ME2.
All we have to go by is this:
"A variation of the popular Avenger design, the Valkyrie is now standard issue for new recruits. Exceptionally well-crafted, accurate, and packing ample firepower, the rifle is a hot black market commodity when it surfaces."

Which implies that:
1) It's just beginning to see circulation("now standard issue") and full scale production.
2) Production and distribution is carefully being monitored to ensure that it is not becoming available to anyone outside of the Alliance military.

[quote]
[quote]And aside from the Valkyrie, none are in full scale production or distribution.

Because the Alliance does not own the production or distribution capabilities to effectively get them out there. That is, supposedly, why they are designated as "Ultra Rares" in MP.[/quote]

They're "Ultra Rare" as far as the MP goes sure. And yet the N7 Hurricane is stated to be: "
Alliance officers were so pleased with field results that the Hurricane is now many squadrons' standard-issue SMG". The Crusader is said to be "
primarily used by highly trained soldiers.", which does not tell how many are produced, though it implies that if it isn't widespread, that it's due less to manufacturing and distribution abilities and more due to field requirements. [/quote]
Again, you ignored the relatively key part...
"Now".


[quote]
[quote]

The alternate appearance outfits used by Kaidan and James, by the by, are those which are used by the Alliance Marines...which are a major military force and numerous enough that it's downright impossible for someone within the Mass Effect universe to not know how they look.
[/quote]

This changes the argument none, since there's still the fact that Cerberus Combat Engineers are using a Alliance uniform design which, as you note, "is impossible to not know how they look". [/quote]
Did I say that it was supposed to change my argument?
No. That's why I inserted the words "by the by". It implies an offhanded remark, intended to be supplemental and not argumentative.
[quote]
[quote]
Certainly.
However, as I mentioned, Cerberus does things the Alliance does not.
We do not have "Indoctrinated" forces among the Alliance in anything aside from a psychological sense.
We do not have things like the facility on Pragia.

[/quote]

Which has no bearing on the Alliance's tech development and proliferation abilities whatsoever. It simply means that the Alliance and Cerberus have differing ways of getting their technologies, with the latter being more brutal about it. But as I've already outlined with the above, the Alliance is perfectly capable of developing advanced weapons and armor (and by extension, combat doctrines) by themselves without the need to respond to Cerberus prodding. 

Cerberus only lasted as long as it did due to the underhanded tactics they utilized. Once the tables were turned on them, Cerberus got absolutely curbstomped. 
[/quote]
Actually it does.

The underhanded tactics that Cerberus utilized were, as mentioned by Shepard in the campaign, their primary method of survival.

That does not change the fact, however, that Cerberus did not have the oversight or regulatory hurdles that the Alliance does for production and distribution.

[landylan]

ntrisley wrote...

landylan wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

So you're unhappy they're using the same 3D model is what you are saying.

No.

What I'm saying is I'm unhappy that with a themed release, that of Alliance Special Forces, they're using models which make absolutely no bloody sense and adding two classes which do the same.

The N7 program is not Cerberus. There's no reason, at all, for us to get "Alliance Ninjas".
It's fanpandering, and I dislike it because it seems to be nothing more than capitulation to the same outcries which introduced an explosive sniper rifle.

I thought Mgamerz was talking to Neofelis?

People have been wanting characters like these for awhile. They are all unique... the pictures you put up aren't even as cool in appearance as the new DLC characters are.

You missed my point.

This is a themed release. It's Alliance Special Forces. It makes absolutely no sense for a military organization, even for the loosely regulated and extreme latitudes given to current Special Forces units, to have such deviations as sword wielding ninjas wearing space kilts and people wearing the same gear as notorious thieves.

You like the appearances of the DLC characters.
That's fine. I don't think they're appropriate for this upcoming pack. If this were a release of more ex-Cerberus characters? I'd be okay with it.
As it stands though--they stick out like if we were to get a DLC themed around Palaven and received a Hanar Ninja and Drell Priest.

There is nothing stopping the Alliance from using cerberus technology.

Other than the fact that Cerberus doesn't share technology with the Alliance.
And that in order to actually have the Phantoms and Kai Leng be as effective as they are, they had to be implanted with Reaper based technology.

What's wrong with Bioware actually listening to it's fanbase???

Somehow, I just knew someone would say this...

There's a difference between "listening to your fanbase" and "pandering to a vocal minority".
It is the difference between doing something like the Extended Cut and releasing a character of the "Nemesis Defector" based upon the fanart that keeps floating around.

"Alliance Phantoms" are something which a small number of people kept demanding. I've very much hated the idea, and I still do, because it makes absolutely no sense.
If they had released a character Drell with these skill sets? I'd have been fine with it.
If they had released Cerberus defectors with these skill sets and appearances? Fine with it!

But as it stands, they stick out like a sore thumb.

In desperate times, it makes sense to use whatever makes the soldier most effective. If you think swords don't make sense, why bring it up now? Cerberus doesn't have to share technology...I don't know if you realize this, but there was a lot of dead phantom bodies on the Citadel after the attempted council assassination. The only characters you apparently disagree with are the kasumi armored one and the phantom one. Both are entirely plausible, so I just don't see the problem. 

They are not catering to the needs of a vocal group. They are listening to ideas proposed by the community. Creating a phantom character is a genuinely good idea. We don't want characters that play the same as all the others.

[Mgamerz]

uzivatel wrote...

Even the weapons in the original game are guilty of reusing parts of the design (Phalanx > Eagle, Falcon > Valkyrie, Raptor > Saber, Graal > Striker, Eviscerator > Crusader) and the Spectre weapons are simply recolours, but at least those weapons look good on their own.

That new Saber / Eviscrerator combo looks silly (shotgun with bi-pod and heavy barrel? I really want to see the description) and that Valkyrie with pieces of material added to random places is just plain ugly.

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

"Free content"

Complain about the look of it.

Thats just wrong. Look at what happened to Team Fortress 2 / Battlefield Heroes.

And its not like ME3 and the MP are free in the first place. This new content may be at no extra cost, but that alone does not mean the devs should get away with just about everything. Should we just ignore all the bugs and glitches of the DLC characters / maps, because "hey, its free"?

Yes, you should. It's free, and you are entitled ZERO updates post purchase.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 11 juillet 2012 - 07:20 .

[UkGouki]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

First off, proof has been received, proof has been acknowledged.

However, point of why I was so sceptical was how everything are simple reskins of existing armors and the weapons looking like someone had just played a bit with photoshop. I have to say, I am disappointed by the lack of creativity when it comes to give the DLCs their looks. I mean, surely one could do better than simply paint a couple of armors black, decrease the Disciple's lenght and mesh up the front part of the Saber with the stock of the Crusader/Raider, a miniaturized version of the turret blast plates and a drum magazine together for the weapons.


Not saying I am not looking forward to play the new stuff, I am pretty much drooling over the Demolisher and the Paladin looks more than intriguing too (along with the whole other bunch, but those two are the ones I am most looking to get my hands on), but the tendecy on how DLCs look is going into the wrong direction in my opinion.


Looking back, I can't help but see how the Geth SMG, the Striker and the Kishock actually were new stuff and looked unique (well, Striker not so much).
But then we get reskinned Mattocks/Collector rifles and a modified Phaeston  And now it's weapon meshs cruelly glued together from the way the new weapons look.



I am not from ungrateful, far from that. I am certain I will get lots of joy playing those things, but please, BioWare, I know you can do better than that. When people are doubting leaks because everything looks like a cheap photoshop, you really have to look on how you want things to progress.




Synopsis:
I was sceptical, now I am no longer. I still don't like the way the DLC looks (literally, I mean the looks), though I am looking forward playing the hell out of it. But:
First DLC was giving new characters. All of them were re-used assets and I was fine with that because it was immersive.
The Krogan looked like a Krogan, the AJA looked like an armored Asari, the Geth looked like Geth. It was immersive.
The new weapons were unique-looking and that I loved.

The Second DLC was giving re-used assets too and I was fine with it again.
The Phoenix characters looked like something Cerberus would look like and the Quarians were simply male quarians, was still immersive.
The Vorcha where a bit silly though with no armor whatsoever, but it was an exception.
The Krysae was a turian inspired SR. Immersive.
The Reegar a Collector Rifle reskin and the Harrier a Mattock reskin, not so much immersive, but again more of an exception rather than the rule.

But with this DLC I see;
Biotic Kasumi with a mask.
Phantom
Kai Leng
On the same vain the fact those other character looks are reskins is just moreso prevalent.
Furthermore I see some weapon parts put together and a mini-disciple.

All of that is not immersive.



Now I'm off to finishing my SP playthrough (first with EC, yay), then off to hoarding credits to have handy when the DLC gets out.

jesus is there nothing some of the people on here wont moan and whine about... to me it looks Awesome they "Bioware" put alot of effort into providing us free content and keeping us interested.

i personally cannot wait to try out the new classes and weapons etc may take a while for me to unlock em all but thats all in the fun of it..

[ntrisley]

landylan wrote...
In desperate times, it makes sense to use whatever makes the soldier most effective. If you think swords don't make sense, why bring it up now? Cerberus doesn't have to share technology...I don't know if you realize this, but there was a lot of dead phantom bodies on the Citadel after the attempted council assassination. The only characters you apparently disagree with are the kasumi armored one and the phantom one. Both are entirely plausible, so I just don't see the problem. 

They are not catering to the needs of a vocal group. They are listening to ideas proposed by the community. Creating a phantom character is a genuinely good idea. We don't want characters that play the same as all the others.

And in case you did not read the Codex entries on Cerberus, the Alliance cannot make the Phantom hand cannons work.

It's Reaper tech, not Cerberus tech.

As for "why bring it up now?"
It's because prior to this there was no reason to bring it up.

There never, ever, ever should be a melee heavy character like the Shadow or Fury.
Those are the two I "really disagree with".
I feel the Adept is poor art direction, but I most definitively feel that the Shadow and Fury are the ones who should be held back and completely redesigned.

I don't care that "you don't want characters that play the same as all the others".
I care that the characters match their backgrounds.

Gameplay is not the only thing to consider.

Modifié par ntrisley, 11 juillet 2012 - 07:28 .

[UKillMeLongTime]

Last DLC you got more like three characters with two shared powers for the most part
This is a bit better imo than that.

[Relix28]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

First off, proof has been received, proof has blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

What does it matter if the models are pre existing?

They were good models that were not available for MP use. They were also widely requested. Me and many others very much wanted playable phantoms/terminus armor and Omni shields.

The Powers are mostly new if the leak is completely correct and that's where the innovation comes in. We also get 3 new maps that I imagine they worked very hard on and could have the best Art design and layout for as much as we know.

[ntrisley]

The problem is that, again, it's Alliance Phantoms.

That's dumb. Put them in another ex-Cerberus pack or something, don't just throw them into the N7 pack.

[Mgamerz]

Don't really understand your logic OP, but I guess you can complain if you want.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

ntrisley wrote...

The problem is that, again, it's Alliance Phantoms.

That's dumb. Put them in another ex-Cerberus pack or something, don't just throw them into the N7 pack.

Why does it make sense for Cerebrus to have Sword users, but for the Alliance not to? 

[mrcanada]

Other than the new Cerberus models, which come from another game anyway, they are all from existing models. This is a stupid complaint and it's like saying that all the Drells are just Thane and all the Turians are just Garrus. Considering the fact that Kasumi, Phantoms and Kai Leng have some of the best designs in the entire game, you should be grateful.

Only complaint that could be considered valid is more humans.

[eye basher]

if we follow the lore most people who call themselves N7 ops aren't even real soldiers their mercs,bounty hunters anyone that can hold a gun and is good at what they do.

[mrcanada]

TheWout wrote...

Dude, go build a sandcastle or something.
Stop wasting everybody's time with your negativity all the time

Stop spouting nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread. Your defense of Bioware in every thread is sickening.  If it were up to you, we'd still be playing the demo build and everything would be rainbows and unicorns.  How dare we ask for more or question something!

[Jackums]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Does it matter if they're reskins? They still look cool.

[ntrisley]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

The problem is that, again, it's Alliance Phantoms.

That's dumb. Put them in another ex-Cerberus pack or something, don't just throw them into the N7 pack.

Why does it make sense for Cerebrus to have Sword users, but for the Alliance not to? 

Honestly?

Because Cerberus doesn't necessarily work off common sense.
The organization is run by a madman who thinks he's "in the right".
It's subject to no oversight, he's indoctrinated his personnel, and what's more he seems to be an egomaniacal dictator.

I can't imagine any government with sensible military advisors saying "Hey, let's have a cadre of ninjas!", can you?

[LiarasShield]

Didn't cerberus use to be a black ops group for the alliance so why wouldn't they have their own phantoms and stuff come on originally cerberus was with the alliance at first right it isn't really that hard to believe

[Atheosis]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

ntrisley wrote...

The problem is that, again, it's Alliance Phantoms.

That's dumb. Put them in another ex-Cerberus pack or something, don't just throw them into the N7 pack.

Why does it make sense for Cerebrus to have Sword users, but for the Alliance not to? 

For the same reason human special forces using armor that somewhat resembles established armor patterns is a bad thing: NERD RAGE.