76 réponses à ce sujet

[Thanatos45]

rmp wrote...

What's wrong with the idea? You don't like that it's more realistic? It would mess with those uber powerful mage builds? What?

Edit: Thanks Bidby for an intelligent response.

You'd need to rebalance the entire game around that concept, so no for me too. Way too much work for too small a gain.

[SheffSteel]

Baaaah

[deathwing200]

Bibdy wrote...

Muse011 wrote...


So are you one of those people who like to make fun of 'sheep'? Doesn't that technically make you one as well, just a different kind?

Herr herr you're so smert.

Stacking one stat only is a bad idea anyway, so anyone who does it just because they 'can' is only hurting themselves in the end. Unless they like Easy difficulty.

A good example is the Strength one mentioned above.

Not in this game it isn't. Tanks aren't penalised for stacking Dex any more than Mages are penalised for stacking Magic. What do they need anything else for? A tank that gets 1 defense per Dex vs opponents that get 0.5 Attack per Str, and Mages that get continually better damage/mana efficiency and being more than capable of chain-chugging cheap lesser mana potions all day...

None of that sounds like a bad idea. It sounds like players making the best out of the system and it needs some fixes to get players to diversify.

It does need fixes.

Willpower needs to add to mana regen and stamina regen
Con needs to give +0.5 defense OR +10HP per point
Mana pots need to go on same cooldown regardless of type or cooldown needs to be doubled (or both)

This makes mana pots weaker, willpower/con more attractive and doesn't feel like a bandaid solution that diminishing returns are.

[kevinwastaken]

Nope.

[Muse011]

Bibdy wrote...

Herr herr you're so smert.

Thank you.

Bibdy wrote...


Not in this game it isn't. Tanks aren't penalised for stacking Dex any more than Mages are penalised for stacking Magic. What do they need anything else for? A tank that gets 1 defense per Dex vs opponents that get 0.5 Attack per Str, and Mages that get continually better damage/mana efficiency and being more than capable of chain-chugging cheap lesser mana potions all day...

None of that sounds like a bad idea. It sounds like players making the best out of the system and it needs some fixes to get players to diversify.

Good point, but in all reality the entire stat system should be redone. Simply adding 'diminishing returns' won't solve anything, since as you pointed out, there is no point putting stats elsewhere anyway.

[Basher of Glory]

If I understood correctly, then DA:O is THE IDEAL game for min/maxers, right?

[Adria Teksuni]

Thanatos45 wrote...

rmp wrote...

What's wrong with the idea? You don't like that it's more realistic? It would mess with those uber powerful mage builds? What?

Edit: Thanks Bidby for an intelligent response.

You'd need to rebalance the entire game around that concept, so no for me too. Way too much work for too small a gain.

Agreed.  The stats as they are now are wildly out of whack.  Forcing diversification at this point would hurt the characters. 

Bring up the useless stats (Con) to the point of usefulness with the others (Dex) and then I wouldn't mind.  Still...I think it would be better to provide in game incentive to diversify in stats than just say "you can't go up in this anymore until you have more points to spend" or whatever.

Every game I've played since my first I feel like my characters are so stat lopsided they're about to keel right on over, but gameplay works better with those crazy stats.

[rmp]

deathwing200 wrote...


Edit: comparing DA stats to DnD stats is also pretty dumb. in DND the diminishing returns on stats are only there in the beginning, simply because you get so many of them, people would start with something like 40 STR or 40 INT - way to difficult to balance. in DA, you only get a few stat points, which makes adding DRs pointless.

The comparison is perfectly valid. In DnD it happens at the beginning, in DA it happens throughout the game, but in the end there are a ton of points to spend and the effect and reason to do it would be the same.

Regardless, I'm clearly in the minority and it would be preferable, as mentioned, to make other attributes more valuable. (The idea though was for the current system.)

[Muse011]

Baher of Glory wrote...

If I understood correctly, then DA:O is THE IDEAL game for min/maxers, right?

Not really. It's a bit too easy to Min/Max in this game. I'd personally prefer more of a challenge (involving math) to get the best out of stats. MMOs are usually good for that.

Not to say it's a bad game (I freakin love it), but Min/Maxing is definitely not the reason why.

Modifié par Muse011, 16 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[Darpaek]

It would be more fun for the min-maxing crowd (me included ) if they had detailed skill descriptions.

[rmp]

It's not like you're totally gimping your character by putting points into something other than the main stat. I've put a lot of points into willpower for my mage and it's still a very effective character. I love spamming spell after spell, without potions which I save only for the most difficult fights (actually, the high dragon is the only fight I've used lyrium potions for so far (I play on Hard)) For Alistair, I've put almost all his points into strength and dexterity and neither one is over 42 and he's level 17. So it's still a ways from the 50 soft cap I mentioned, which was just a number I threw out there anyway.

[Muse011]

Darpaek wrote...

It would be more fun for the min-maxing crowd (me included ) if they had detailed skill descriptions.

Yeah that too. Especially for abilities like Song of Courage. All I know is to stack Cunning like a mofo on my Leliana archer build, but I don't know how effective it actually is, outside of "Very".

Modifié par Muse011, 16 décembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[Darpaek]

"Why a spoon, cousin? Why not an axe? "

"Because it's DULL, you twit. It'll hurt more."

[wonko33]

I don't have a problem with the way it is now. This is not a life simulator

[Muse011]

wonko33 wrote...

I don't have a problem with the way it is now. This is not a life simulator

Hey, you're pretty observant aren't you?

[blazin130791]

**** idea is ****.

[Darpaek]

blazin130791 wrote...

**** idea is ****.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

[Varenus Luckmann]

Hahahahaahahahaaahaahahahahahaha.

No.

[T0paze]

No

[Faerell Gustani]

Muse011 wrote...

Good point, but in all reality the entire stat system should be redone. Simply adding 'diminishing returns' won't solve anything, since as you pointed out, there is no point putting stats elsewhere anyway.

Incorrect.  Diminishing returns would mean that at some point the stat ceases to be a viable way to contribute.
Take Dex for a dual wielding rogue for example.
Dex adds Attack, Damage, Defense, and phys resist for this rogue.
If it starts giving diminishing returns, eventually it will be more efficient to put points into Cunning for Armor Pennetration or Strength for damage, attack rating, and physical resist.
Currently, Strength is a base stat you get to 20 so you can use the armors, you just use Lethality and go pure Dex/Cunning...or pure Dex for superior defenses and hit rating.

Another example would be Mages and Magic.  Currently, Magic is the only stat to invest in.  You get plenty of mana from level-ups such that Willpower is negligible.  There is literally no benefit to other stats.  However, if you add diminishing returns, eventually investing in Magic for additional spellpower will not be as effective as having the extra mana to cast the spell twice.  Willpower will suddenly be valuable at a certain point. (Excluding any Lyrium chugging cheese).

Likewise the Sword/Board warrior focuses on Dex/Strength.
Diminishing returns would lower the chances of an "unhittable" tank by way of Dex focusing, thus making Constitution important to soak the blows where as previously it was a purely inferior stat mechanically.

[Darpaek]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Incorrect.  Diminishing returns would mean that at some point the stat ceases to be a viable way to contribute.
Take Dex for a dual wielding rogue for example.
Dex adds Attack, Damage, Defense, and phys resist for this rogue.
If it starts giving diminishing returns, eventually it will be more efficient to put points into Cunning for Armor Pennetration or Strength for damage, attack rating, and physical resist.
Currently, Strength is a base stat you get to 20 so you can use the armors, you just use Lethality and go pure Dex/Cunning...or pure Dex for superior defenses and hit rating.

Another example would be Mages and Magic.  Currently, Magic is the only stat to invest in.  You get plenty of mana from level-ups such that Willpower is negligible.  There is literally no benefit to other stats.  However, if you add diminishing returns, eventually investing in Magic for additional spellpower will not be as effective as having the extra mana to cast the spell twice.  Willpower will suddenly be valuable at a certain point. (Excluding any Lyrium chugging cheese).

Likewise the Sword/Board warrior focuses on Dex/Strength.
Diminishing returns would lower the chances of an "unhittable" tank by way of Dex focusing, thus making Constitution important to soak the blows where as previously it was a purely inferior stat mechanically.

That's quite an essay when you could've just written...

"No."

Modifié par Darpaek, 16 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[SheffSteel]

Diminishing returns won't stop mix/maxers, it will just slow them down a little. Even if it costs all three attribute points to increase magic from 50 to 51, a lot of players are still going to think it's better value - it still gets all the benefits of a point of Magic - than putting all three points into Willpower and being able to cast Arcane Bolt one more time.

[sarahbau]

thegreateski wrote...

Put all your points in Strength.

now go get a 2-hander and try to hit something.

Diminishing returns is silly.

I'm not sure if you were trying to say that putting all your points in strength makes it so you can't hit something, that's incorrect. DEX isn't the only stat that increases your chance to hit. STR does as well, and by just as much as DEX does. They probably should have made it so that you need DEX in order to get a high attack rating, but the way it is now, any class can stack a single stat, and get the most benefit from doing so. My lvl 12 2h warrior, with all of his points in STR (other than a few in cunning, in order to get abilities), has I think a 107 attack with several buffs that give a penalty to attack (haste and berserker I think both do).

I'm not sure if diminishing returns is the right way to do it, but they should, or at least should have made the stats more appealing to all the classes. Will and Constitution aren't really that desirable to anyone. Each class should have at least two or three stats that they want to balance, rather than stacking one. Maybe a warrior could hit for 200 with stacked STR, but would only hit 50% of the time unless they had some DEX. A rogue could hit every time, and crit 50% of the time with capped DEX, but only hit for 10 damage unless they had some STR, for example.

[Kerio]

As others have clearly stated, it would make little to no difference to how many players build their characters if there were diminishing returns for attributes -- the problem is that the current attributes aren't (or at least don't appear) to be balanced.

 
Why put a point in Will just to gain the +x mana/stamina when placing a point in Magic is more effective when you are a magi? Or (even worse) why place a point in Will at all if you are a rogue or warrior?

 
Every attribute should be equally important (and affective) in whatever character build you choose to make -- while an increase in Will shouldn't make your warrior attack harder, faster, etc., there should certainly be more of an affect than just +x stamina and +y mental resistance. However, these changes have to be very carefully made to insure that the game remains balanced for all races and classes from the very beginning of their origins to the final battle -- not an easy thing to accomplish.

Modifié par Kerio, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[Bibdy]

Muse011 wrote...



Good point, but in all reality the entire stat system should be redone. Simply adding 'diminishing returns' won't solve anything, since as you pointed out, there is no point putting stats elsewhere anyway.

It doesn't have to stop it, but it would help encourage diversity and even the playing field more. Its difficult enough to make a system where everything is equal at one point, letting it scale linearly and infinitely with so many 'moving parts' and being just as equal at much higher values.

Diminishing returns is an excellent mechanism to support that kind of framework and dynamically change the value of a stat the more you put into another one. Trying to come up with a system where Will == Con == Str == Dex == Mag == Cunn from 10 to 10 billion is utter folly. Some improvements should be made to some of the current attributes, but you can't guarantee some extra benefits or a little nerf/buff here or there is going to make everything equal at all times. You never will. If Magic is even a tiny bit better than Willpower, some people are just going to stack the crap out of it. Diminishing returns lets Willpower become a better investment, per point, than Magic once Magic gets too far ahead.

Modifié par Bibdy, 16 décembre 2009 - 09:09 .