77 réponses à ce sujet

[interesting03]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Arl Bryland always supports you, he is not counted toward your support. He's counter-balanced by Bann Ceorlic, who always sides with Loghain. This was done for the sake of scripting the melee battle, since named characters fight on the side of whomever they support.

Strange, i've only ever seen Eamon, Alfstanna and Bryland in the brawl. Ceorlic, Sighard, Whulf, Vaughan and the assassin's quest guy never appear (i don't think he's named). Though according to the soundfiles, they all have combat soundsets and should appear.

[Cazlee]

Is that guy on ground level that speaks out last an actual voter or is his job to express the consensus of the landsmeet?

[Naxarrath]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I redid the landsmeet and chose to bring up Eamon's poisoning by Loghain's Blood Mage instead of bringing up selling elves and while it had no effect on the end result....still just a 5 to 2 victory....it certainly felt less convincing to me. Loghain simply denied the entire thing and then some chick said her brother tells a different story and the Grand Cleric jumped in to say interfering with Templar business won't be tolerated but I failed to notice the part where it was more than political unconvincing bickering. Bringing up the elves doesn't leave Loghain the option to deny anything and it was a clear and undoubted strike that I could easily see changing minds....it sounded much better to me than the other "yes you did"/"no I didn't" exchange.

Thats odd, i always can say both first "blight is the real threat" then i say about "him allowing slavery" and last nail is "using blood mage to poison Eamon" the elven slaves are big thing and i always use it, chantry jumping on loghain just make me smile, im sure many of those lesser nobles just lost their interest of supporting Loghain.

[I saved Star Wars :D]

David Gaider wrote...

It boggles my mind to think that there was even a period when the Landsmeet was MORE complex.

Want it!

[WTFocker]

Hmmmm so winning or losing the landsmeet helps you avoid the brawl? I'm assuming the relatively mild consequences for losing is a safety valve and winning is meant to be an end in itself.



I know I was proud of winning the landsmeet legit even just for RP reasons.

[Galad22]

I always assumed that last man on the ground represent whole Bannorn, and that's why you can loose, even with almost everyone else with you. Since there are Bunch of Banns in Bannorn, though when you think about it some more, why would everyone in the Bannorn vote for Loghain, when they have just warred a civil war against him.



Unless of course Loghain killed all his enemies in Bannorn.

[tmp7704]

Naxarrath wrote...

Thats odd, i always can say both first "blight is the real threat" then i say about "him allowing slavery" and last nail is "using blood mage to poison Eamon" the elven slaves are big thing and i always use it, chantry jumping on loghain just make me smile, im sure many of those lesser nobles just lost their interest of supporting Loghain.

Looking into the Landsmeet conversation code mentioning the slaves grants you 1 "point" to the score and gets one of the nobles on your side (which is worth another point in the final voting)

The mention of Blight gets another noble on your side and can get you additional points if your conversation skill is high enough to make Bann Alfstanna pipe in. But it also costs you a point because of Ceorlic's jeer which happens no matter what. So depending on your conversation skills it gains you either a point total, or nothing.

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

I always assumed that last man on the ground represent whole Bannorn, and that's why you can loose, even with almost everyone else with you.

Yes, that one reflects how the whole Landsmeet ultimately feels about the argument.

[Vansen Elamber]

The thing is even if you loose the vote, so to speak, you can still force the duel between you and Logain and win the throne that way. In my last playthrough I was playing a human female noble rogue and my intentions were to marry Alistar and become his Queen. I got a big surprise when Anora made her entrance and for a while there I thought I had lost it all....however the duel got me back to where I needed to be.

It is also key to go around in the Denerim market area and find any nobles who will speak to you and if you talked to all the prisoners in fort drakon and in Howe's dungeon you should have some nobles that will give you their vote for the information you have for them. It is key to find those nobles if you want to win the vote.

Modifié par Vansen Elamber, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Nokturnal Lex]

Anyone have a list of all the noble locations? The only ones I could find were in the Gnawed Noble inn (and the prisoners in Howe's dungeon linked to them) There always seems to be 1 or 2 nobles that vote against me but I can't find where/how to make them approve.

Yea and when my Evil char did the landsmeet, it broke out into a brawl, killed all the guards, then got loghain low and he finally submitted to a duel. (When that happened though everyone agree'd with me but 1 or 2 nobles and the queen, had the majority and the grand cleric on my side, still broke out into a fight, i guess because I chose different arguments then the persuasive ones)

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 17 décembre 2009 - 04:07 .

[menasure]

pff i killed the whole room once ... then the chantry simply gave loghain a second chance by asking for that duel -would be hard for him to rule without any nobles left, even if he supposedly survived lol-. so i tried it the other way around and lost ... game over.
i always knew that the chantry is a source of pure evil! next on my agenda after winning the landsmeet: burn those churches muhaha

Modifié par menasure, 17 décembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

For me, personally, I would take Loghain allowing elves to be sold into slavery and used for horrific purposes by a foreign power to be the greatest of Loghain's crimes, but as it is mentioned, racism is rife in Ferelden, and thus, for many nobles, elves are barely considered people. So they wouldn't really care about the elves much, since generally, their sale is filling the royal warchests.



it's horrible, I know, and I learned the hard way in Landsmeet that what i thought was the best arguement was close to the weakest. It adds an element of unpleasant reality to the game, and there are plenty of real world examples where citizens were absolutely content to allow their rulers to abuse, exploit, even exterminate ethnic minorities for the "greater good of society" or the benefit of the leadership.



Generally, when confronting the nobles in landsmeet, remember the term "noble" is a title, and does not reflect their character. They are generally a self serving, self interested lot, and the tact you must take with them is "what's in it for me?" Thats how you win their support, by performing quests that benefit them, and arguements that hit home and affect them personally.



They don't give a rats ass about the elves, and probably didn't care much about Cailian either. The arguement about Arl Eamon is effective, as you not only have the support of the grand cleric (The Chantry is powerful, and even nobility and royalty bend to the desires of the chantry for no other reason than such support strengthens their own position, where someone outwardly anti-Chantry will have very few friends.) Plus, you have a regent running around poisoning nobles he finds inconvient, so this will also hit home and make them nervous.



And the blight, well, that hits home as well, because they could lose everything to the blight.

[Original182]

The Blight will win Wulffe's support because he lost his lands and sons to it. You can see him being bitter about it if you talk to him in the Gnawed Noble Tavern.

[Original182]

I would like to respond to Gaider's post in another thread relating to the Landsmeet.

I think the preconception that's at work here is that everyone seems to assume a democratic vote is what is occurring. Perhaps it's simply difficult for people to wrap their brains around the idea that this isn't the case? I don't know. Regardless, we don't need two recent topics on this. Please use the other one.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/462132#462239

If you have a voting system, you must automatically assume that it is a democratic process. I've never heard of something where a persuasive argument can counter a noble's solid vote.

If you want to make persuasive arguments as a factor, what you do is make nobles change their votes to reflect the outcome.
If you want Anora's support a factor, again, make the nobles change their votes based on Anora's support. Make some nobles say "Anora's support for Loghain has weight. Southern Seas support the current Queen and Loghain".
Same goes for the Revered Mother's denunciation. "The Maker has turned his gaze from Loghain. The Warden, I support the Warden."

Right now there's no way for anyone to realize Anora's support and the Revered Mother's denunciation are worth many votes, despite them not voting. It is better for them to sway the voters instead of giving them invisible points.

The problem isn't with us gamers not able to comprehend that it is not a democratic process. I thought that's the whole point of voting, what else could it be but a democratic process.

The problem is that the points system is flawed and doesn't make sense at all. The numerous threads created to voice this confusion should be evidence enough.

Modifié par Original182, 17 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[smokey0990]

Original182 wrote...

I would like to respond to Gaider's post in another thread relating to the Landsmeet.

I think the preconception that's at work here is that everyone seems to assume a democratic vote is what is occurring. Perhaps it's simply difficult for people to wrap their brains around the idea that this isn't the case? I don't know. Regardless, we don't need two recent topics on this. Please use the other one.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/462132#462239

If you have a voting system, you must automatically assume that it is a democratic process. I've never heard of something where a persuasive argument can counter a noble's solid vote.

If you want to make persuasive arguments as a factor, what you do is make nobles change their votes to reflect the outcome.
If you want Anora's support a factor, again, make the nobles change their votes based on Anora's support. Make some nobles say "Anora's support for Loghain has weight. Southern Seas support the current Queen and Loghain".
Same goes for the Revered Mother's denunciation. "The Maker has turned his gaze from Loghain. The Warden, I support the Warden."

Right now there's no way for anyone to realize Anora's support and the Revered Mother's denunciation are worth many votes, despite them not voting. It is better for them to sway the voters instead of giving them invisible points.

The problem isn't with us gamers not able to comprehend that it is not a democratic process. I thought that's the whole point of voting, what else could it be but a democratic process.

The problem is that the points system is flawed and doesn't make sense at all. The numerous threads created to voice this confusion should be evidence enough.

Stole the words right out of my mouth

[David Gaider]

Original182 wrote...
The problem is that the points system is flawed and doesn't make sense at all. The numerous threads created to voice this confusion should be evidence enough.

No, I get you. Sorry if I sounded like I was placing the blame solely on the end user -- it might be difficult to understand that what's being done is "winning over" the nobility of the Landsmeet, who you do not see actually voting or coming to a decision. The "votes" aren't simply the five or six people you hear speaking. The fact that some people can't get past that is somewhere between their pre-conception and our inability to present it/explain it sufficiently.

[Ackis]

druidofwarp wrote...

but do i actually get to choose more than one? Or only choose one?

I was only able to choose 1 for the starting (ie: you kidnapped a templar, etc).

[Original182]

David Gaider wrote...

Original182 wrote...
The problem is that the points system is flawed and doesn't make sense at all. The numerous threads created to voice this confusion should be evidence enough.

No, I get you. Sorry if I sounded like I was placing the blame solely on the end user -- it might be difficult to understand that what's being done is "winning over" the nobility of the Landsmeet, who you do not see actually voting or coming to a decision. The "votes" aren't simply the five or six people you hear speaking. The fact that some people can't get past that is somewhere between their pre-conception and our inability to present it/explain it sufficiently.

Thank you for responding in a diplomatic manner. Apologies as well if I worded my post too harshly.

I still feel that making the number of votes the sole factor in determining who wins the Landsmeet is the best way. If in future you want to make political contests like the Landsmeet, yeah explain to us in game on how it works. Maybe let Arl Eamon give us a Landsmeet tutorial.

[Bibdy]

Darth_Trethon wrote...


Yeah I do that side quest every single time but I usually go for other accusations such as abandoning Cailan, Howe's dungeon of torture and selling elfs....since those sound like greater wrongs than allegations of attempted murder on Eamon....

This is why, in the world of politics, tactical maneouvering outweighs morality

[Relshar]

I just wish there was an option where the Grey Wardens turn round and say to Loghain." Ok then we'er off good luck with the Blight an' all cause we are going to the Anders."

He thinks himself to be so great let Ferledan face the Blight on its own without the Grey Wardens.

[Vormaerin]

Well, without supersecret information not even you have at the time, he'd be right to believe he's just as capable as the Wardens of smashing the blight. Don't forget, its 400 years since the last Blight. There's nothing about the Gray Wardens that indicates they are better at fighting the Blight except a bunch of fairy tales involving griffons and who knows what else.



Imagine if the Knights of St. John showed up today and told the President "hey, we are the experts on fighting Moslem pirates, put us in charge of dealing with the Somalis in the Gulf. After all, we were fighting the Barbary Pirates back in the 1600s, before the US was even a country."



That's pretty much the same argument the Gray Wardens have.

[Vicious]

I lost my first Landsmeet. I frankly believed that I would be able to lay down all my allegations before I was judged.



Instead I got 3 conversation choices and suddenly they Voted. WAIT! I had more proof! lol

[fluffyamoeba]

Cazlee wrote...

Is that guy on ground level that speaks out last an actual voter or is his job to express the consensus of the landsmeet?

This is correct. He doesn't cast a vote. However, no-one really does. Your arguments gain or lose points. When logain forces the "vote" how many people vote for you depends on how many points you got. Whether you win or not also depends on how many points. It is possible to get the majority of the spoken votes, but not enough points to win. Don't forget there's a lot more people "voting" in the landsmeet than the 6? that speak.

As to what gains points and loses: generally things you have proof of get points, things you don't have proof of lose points. Anora has the most points swing. It is very difficult to win if Anora doesn't support you. You can only get in 3 or 4 accusations before Anora speaks.

I do think it would have been clearer if the spoken vote counts represented the outcome.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Vicious wrote...

I lost my first Landsmeet. I frankly believed that I would be able to lay down all my allegations before I was judged.

Instead I got 3 conversation choices and suddenly they Voted. WAIT! I had more proof! lol

Yea lol I noticed that my first time through as well. It's like duuuude chill on the voting real quick I got like 1 million pieces of evidence to sort through.

[tmp7704]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

When logain forces the "vote" how many people vote for you depends on how many points you got. Whether you win or not also depends on how many points.

To be more precise, the nobles who speak either for you or against when the vote is called gain you or cost you a point of "landsmeet support" each, depending who they side with. It's only after these points are combined with what you've possibly accumulated during the speech through the points you raised, the "people of the Landsmeet" presented in the form of final guy you see in the cutscene make up their minds and make their decision known.

Perhaps it'd be more obvious if in the end it was a (clearly) large group of people taking one side or the other. The "final voter" has some other nobles surrounding him but it doesn't come across very clear he represents the majority.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:19 .