292 réponses à ce sujet

[hexediter]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Just because I haven't been able to post it in awhile.

Pretty sure you meant space magic introduced as a new mechanic at the last moment, not something that the very first game of the series told us was possible and also just happened to occur in the game itself.  If you're going to make fun of indoctrination as an idea, then you're making fun of the whole series, and you kind of come across as a troll.  Now the application of indoctrinating the player may not float your boat, I understand that, but you should present your argument correctly otherwise you come across like a moron.

[Tirranek]

IT had some good points, but it was never cohesive. It's just grasping at emergency induction ports.

[brusher225]

Xemnas07 wrote...

But IT is dead. BW was obviously not the geniuses we gave them credit for, and they couldnt pull of the biggest, most intelligent and awe inspiring mind warp in gaming history. So please, stop. EC puts it to rest. BW failed, and made a perfect 10 game that could compete with Skyrim into an average 8 game that is now only worth $30 4 months after release, while Skyrim is STILL $60. We were grasping at straws trying to save our favorite game and trilogy, but face it; it was just bad writing and the inconsistencies and plot holes are just that; inconsistencies and plot holes.

You're absolutely right in every respect.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

They didn't fail. They fixed the endings with the EC and if you still don't like it, you should probably just move on.

[TullyAckland]

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

[MysticSpace]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

BSN never gonna give IT up,
Never gonna let IT down,
Never gonna run around and,
Desert IT.

Best rick roll I've seen in a long time;)

[Eain]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Without beating the dead horse of artistic integrity, this is actually one of the most aggravating things about our modern day take on what art is supposed to be. I'm far more conservative: it's the authors job to tell the story and convey the things that he intends. Leaving it out in the open and letting people take whatever they want from it works insofar as morality or such things is concerned, or metaphorical lessons tucked away between the lines, but when it comes to interpretation of the canon itself and in which manner the story happens and takes place I think the audience should be given far less room to maneuver.

The main question in art these days is always about "what does it make you feel?". When I look at a Rembrandt I feel awe, the same thing as anyone else, because I am impressed with the amount of skill it took to make this piece. But then you have Barnett Newman with Who's Afraid of Red, Yellow and Blue and suddenly the question becomes: what do you take away from this?

The only reason that question is asked is because Who's Afraid has no message or meaning to begin with. In truth we should all feel the same thing: that it's a red canvas with a blue and a yellow stripe and noone should care.

Modifié par Eain, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:11 .

[CroGamer002]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

And don't give me that giving an option for them to live would remove emotional impact.

Exhibit A - Mordin. He can survive Tuchanka and try to cure genophage later.
Exhibit B - Miranda. Her death scene is heartbreaking in ME3, yet you can avoid it. Very easily avoidable.
Exhibit C - Grunt. He surviving impacts more emotionally then his death. And his death is, again, avoidable.

Modifié par Mesina2, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:22 .

[mnomaha]

I just bloody love you Mesina!

[daaaav]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

I'm afraid I'm with Tolkein on this...

He told the exact story he wanted to tell along with all the associated meanings and implications. Rather than relying purely on vague allegory and symbolism he left it up to the readers as to wether HIS story had any applicability to THEIR lives.

This business of "speculations" and "open endedness" has no applicability and just infuriates and frustrates the audience.

It has to stop...

[Romaka]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

In regards to this. With the original endings it is one thing to leave something up to interpretation but to completely tell the audience nothing about what happens is another matter altogether.

With the extended cut every ending choice has conclusive closure as to Shepard except for High EMS Destroy.  Namely that Shepard is dead.  With High EMS Destroy it is still left up to the audience.  All it showed was that Shepard survived the explosion.  That he is alive but not that he will live since the epilogue does not say anything about Shepard.

It would have been so much simpler if it was simply shown that either Shepard is dead or show Shepard being rescued.  We, or at least I, did not need to know what happens to Shepard after that point since that would be the natural end point to then "speculate" his future.  That the only ending where Shepard can supposedly live is ended on a cliffhanger is just poor form to me.

I have said before that implying that something happens is all well and good but unless it is shown then it does not matter in the end.  It also doesn't help that the ending of a trilogy as given does not work with the story that happened before it but sadly that is neither here nor there anymore from the looks of it.

Modifié par Romaka, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[DonYourAviators]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Sigh. It boggles my mind.

[Arsenic Touch]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That is such a cop out and you know it.

[The Angry One]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

My interpretation is that the ending is a trainwreck due to ego and hubris on the part of the creators. Is this valid according to you?

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Lax0r wrote...

BrysonC wrote...

Why do people want the Indoctrination Theory? That would be even less satisfying than what we have now, IMO.

First of all, because it makes sense. What we have now contradicts ME1 plot and ME lore in general.

Second it is based on ME lore and thus not a bad idea. It's also a great plot twist

But yeah, all the people who want to save the universe and want their choices to be reflected in the end are screwed.
I think those are the people who don't like the IT in general.

I would add third point: With actual ending you simply cannot continue in ME, you need to pick one cannon or you´ll need four different games...

[nitefyre410]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Seriously  and I am not trying to be rude or anything but  Bioware is not helping its case  these stance's.

There is a difference between leaving something open too interpation and just not telling a story in a manner that makes sense to the audience so they can make an interpraiton. 

open to interpration  =/= speculate.      

open to interpration would be the endings Gundam 00  Awaking of The Trailblazer, and  End of Evangelion.  

They left things open to interpation. When you leave things open  to interpration there is a still a definative canon, What leaving open to interpration is not  is telling  the audience.. "Oh its what you want it to be" 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:51 .

[Applepie_Svk]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

If you are refusing to gave your fanbase straight answer what was point of your art than why we should by more of your products when from now it´ll be just your art, why lot of fans doesn´t understand or accept blindly followed without question?

Your art successfuly achieved partial indoctrination of your fanbase which blindly deffending those which were from start of Mass Effect greater evil, with EC you even gave them more reasons to believe in delusions which gave them Catalyst. I would like read into your minds because it was so great gamble... right now we have still few groups :

1. indoctrinated - they simply accept your art and Reapers, right now they are saying that they even approve their goals... WooT? They are saying that Catalyst´s logic is good, Reaper goals are good, everything is fine and the best way to run universe is to join to cause - but they refusing to see all plotholes which cause Catalyst, they even trying to hide them with simple answer that EC fix everything ... LoL

2. refuse - they for exchange refusing the ending as bad writting, I cannot blame them.

3. ITers - Oo oO, the only explanation which filling all plotholes which cause ending in whole ME...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:41 .

[Baronesa]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

If it is open to interpretation... like for instance take Liara's words on Refuse ending that the Crucible did not work... we could interpret that as the Crucible not being used on the next cycle... a valid interpretation,,, right?

Then why the hell did mr Gamble come out and instead of leaving open interpretation, he flat out said next cycle WILL use the Crucible?

This is the kind of contradictions that hurt your case

[SpamBot2000]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Thanks for comment. In many cases I would probably pretty much agree with this, but surely in cases like Mass Effect too much hinges on whether we take the endings as the actual fate of the universe or not. If we interpret it as a case of indoctrination, that still leaves the end of the story untold. If we take it literally, the whole universe just stopped making sense. The refusal of the creators of ME to make a definite choice here is just fence sitting, ultimately satisfying no one. And it should go without saying that Twitter, as something existing completely outside the bounds of the ME3 experience, is not a valid medium to add coherence to the ending. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:51 .

[DMWW]

I think people are misreading Tully Ackland's comment. He's not saying anything one way or another about how open to multiple interpretations any particular bit of the story is. He's just saying that given the story as it is, Bioware don't want to offer any additional out-of-story, word-of-God commentary. That seems the right call to me. It's not as if this is a history. None of this actually happened, so if the story leaves X ambiguous, there's no right answer as to X.

@daaaav: LotR is absolutely full of symbolism.

[ld1449]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Tully, no offense but people did not spend over x amount of hundred hours playing through numerous playthroughs making various decisions and multiple runs changing small nuances of the story to see how they would each vary in the overall outcome to now be told after buying an 80 dollar CE

"We wanted you to use your immagination on how things turned out.:)"

[RavenEyry]

Bill Casey wrote...

EC deliberately preserved IT...
It is a legitimate way to interpret the ending...


Deckard is a replicant, Quaid is still in Rekall, and Shepard is fighting indoctrination...

Yep, just because there's not going to be a DLC ending about indoctrination or whatever doesn't mean it's not a valid interpretation.

[SpamBot2000]

The genre confusion here is something that deserves some attention. The form of Mass Effect is that of the Epic (in the sense of artistic genre, not "awesome 'splosions!") Leaving the status of the universe to depend upon the mental state of Shepard at the end is something that a psychological novel would do. It sells short the artistic effort put into making the trilogy and the world contained within it, not to mention creating an aesthetically disjointed artifact. It certainly inhibits the otherwise rich critical possibilities of treating ME as a mythos. I'll spare you the Wall of Text on this, but simply put: it is the path of less artistry.  

[SimonTheFrog]

Being vague about the story plot itself is good for poetry.

It is not good for prose.
Most players of ME want to know what just happened. I'm sorry, but that is what people expected and you KNOW they did considering all the stuff you guys promised before release.

Please just stop pretending that this ending is good. Please. It's just insulting for both parties.