292 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega2079]

That's exactly what I'd expect someone that's been indoctrinated to say.

Nice try, Reapers.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Mesina2 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

And don't give me that giving an option for them to live would remove emotional impact.

Exhibit A - Mordin. He can survive Tuchanka and try to cure genophage later.
Exhibit B - Miranda. Her death scene is heartbreaking in ME3, yet you can avoid it. Very easily avoidable.
Exhibit C - Grunt. He surviving impacts more emotionally then his death. And his death is, again, avoidable.

Some things are unavoidable. That's just how it is. Shepard isn't in control of every single thing and person around him/her.  

Oh, and if anyone's looking for a reason for why Bioware devs rarely post on here. Well, this thread is your answer.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:31 .

[DMWW]

Dante's Inferno was pretty epic. That doesn't stop it having literal and nonliteral interpretations.

[zigamortis]

Dont get why so many people think that IT is dead. Its not. so why bother telling people who believe in it that they are wrong?

[The Angry One]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Oh, and if anyone's looking for a reason for why Bioware devs rarely post on here. Well, this thread is your answer.

Yes how dare we..... reply to BioWare empoyees.

[CroGamer002]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

And don't give me that giving an option for them to live would remove emotional impact.

Exhibit A - Mordin. He can survive Tuchanka and try to cure genophage later.
Exhibit B - Miranda. Her death scene is heartbreaking in ME3, yet you can avoid it. Very easily avoidable.
Exhibit C - Grunt. He surviving impacts more emotionally then his death. And his death is, again, avoidable.

Some things are unavoidable. That's just how it is. Shepard isn't in control of every single thing and person around him/her.  

Oh, and if anyone's looking for a reason for why Bioware devs rarely post on here. Well, this thread is your answer.

I'm sorry, but did you read comment I replied to?

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Mesina2 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

And don't give me that giving an option for them to live would remove emotional impact.

Exhibit A - Mordin. He can survive Tuchanka and try to cure genophage later.
Exhibit B - Miranda. Her death scene is heartbreaking in ME3, yet you can avoid it. Very easily avoidable.
Exhibit C - Grunt. He surviving impacts more emotionally then his death. And his death is, again, avoidable.

Some things are unavoidable. That's just how it is. Shepard isn't in control of every single thing and person around him/her.  

Oh, and if anyone's looking for a reason for why Bioware devs rarely post on here. Well, this thread is your answer.

I'm sorry, but did you read comment I replied to?

Yup.

Thane's death doesn't give you a choice. His death is a part of the story. 
Mordin's death is a the result of one of your choices. His death may or may not be a part of your story. 

All TullyAckland said, was that BW don't want to say what choice is canon or not, when it comes to these storylines with different outcomes. Thane's story only have ONE outcome no matter what, so that is completely unrelated to what he said. Again, Shepard is not in control of everything. 

Read his post again.

[res27772]

alsonamedbort wrote...

What does Skyrim have to do with this?

Nothing directly, but people will always compare games to try and make a point.

[nitefyre410]

The Angry One wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Oh, and if anyone's looking for a reason for why Bioware devs rarely post on here. Well, this thread is your answer.

Yes how dare we..... reply to BioWare empoyees.

 

With  cristicism none the less.... such insolant whelps we are.    

Modifié par nitefyre410, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:47 .

[DMWW]

Mesina2 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

He said you can interpret the story however you want, not that you can have whatever story you want. 

[CroGamer002]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Yup.

Thane's death doesn't give you a choice. His death is a part of the story. 
Mordin's death is a the result of one of your choices. His death may or may not be a part of your story.

And problem lies there.
No choice.

Bioware claims this story is based on our choice, yet they taken our choice here and in many other places in ME3.

Also, you have choices with Legion. But no matter what, Legion dies. It just depends how he dies and who also can die as well.


How fun.

All TullyAckland said, was that BW don't want to say what choice is canon or not, when it comes to these storylines with different outcomes. Thane's story only have ONE outcome no matter what, so that is completely unrelated to what he said. Again, Shepard is not in control of everything. 

Read his post again.

That's another problem.

With some outcomes, that don't effect how story progresses, it's canon, while with others it's based on players choices or imagination.

That's just a cop out move.
Certain choices exist and work because, Bioware said so.
Certain choices don't exist and/or work because, Bioware said so.


In other words, contrived to fit Bioware artistic vision.
Vision that is still not explained by Bioware and they refuse to even talk about it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

That's great.

This is why I can hang out with Thane and Legion... OH WAIT, THEIR DEATHS ARE CANONICAL!
Some much for speaking of story is a player choice.

Mesina...

You're arguing an absurd extreme of absolutes, an impossible standard considering the medium of a pre-programmed game. All pre-designed stories, by their nature, are only going to allow a spectrum of choice within an advancing plot. An RPG video game is not, and has never been, about absolute freedom of choice. That does not mean that there can only be a single interpretation of the events that do occur, and you know this: an interpretation isn't just an event that occurs, but the context around it. They 'why' for your motivation, or what you believe the implications will be.

You're better than this.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Angry One wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

My interpretation is that the ending is a trainwreck due to ego and hubris on the part of the creators. Is this valid according to you?

Why would his opinion matter when he already states that it is a personal thing?

A valid personal thing never has to be something everyone agrees with, or even agrees is correct.

[CroGamer002]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mesina...

You're arguing an absurd extreme of absolutes, an impossible standard considering the medium of a pre-programmed game. All pre-designed stories, by their nature, are only going to allow a spectrum of choice within an advancing plot. An RPG video game is not, and has never been, about absolute freedom of choice. That does not mean that there can only be a single interpretation of the events that do occur, and you know this: an interpretation isn't just an event that occurs, but the context around it. They 'why' for your motivation, or what you believe the implications will be.

You're better than this.

OK, could you explain to me how Thane and Legion being able to survive would deny advancement of the plot in same way?

[Dean_the_Young]

ld1449 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

Tully, no offense but people did not spend over x amount of hundred hours playing through numerous playthroughs making various decisions and multiple runs changing small nuances of the story to see how they would each vary in the overall outcome to now be told after buying an 80 dollar CE

"We wanted you to use your immagination on how things turned out.:)"

How fortunate it is that you were not told that.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Mesina2 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Yup.

Thane's death doesn't give you a choice. His death is a part of the story. 
Mordin's death is a the result of one of your choices. His death may or may not be a part of your story.

And problem lies there.
No choice.

Bioware claims this story is based on our choice, yet they taken our choice here and in many other places in ME3.

Also, you have choices with Legion. But no matter what, Legion dies. It just depends how he dies and who also can die as well.


How fun.

All TullyAckland said, was that BW don't want to say what choice is canon or not, when it comes to these storylines with different outcomes. Thane's story only have ONE outcome no matter what, so that is completely unrelated to what he said. Again, Shepard is not in control of everything. 

Read his post again.

That's another problem.

With some outcomes, that don't effect how story progresses, it's canon, while with others it's based on players choices or imagination.

That's just a cop out move.
Certain choices exist and work because, Bioware said so.
Certain choices don't exist and/or work because, Bioware said so.


In other words, contrived to fit Bioware artistic vision.
Vision that is still not explained by Bioware and they refuse to even talk about it.

Having a story that's 100% shaped by the player in a cinematic experience such as Mass Effect is simply not possible. Seems like you had some pretty unrealistic expectations for this game. Can't really blame the devs for that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mesina...

You're arguing an absurd extreme of absolutes, an impossible standard considering the medium of a pre-programmed game. All pre-designed stories, by their nature, are only going to allow a spectrum of choice within an advancing plot. An RPG video game is not, and has never been, about absolute freedom of choice. That does not mean that there can only be a single interpretation of the events that do occur, and you know this: an interpretation isn't just an event that occurs, but the context around it. They 'why' for your motivation, or what you believe the implications will be.

You're better than this.

OK, could you explain to me how Thane and Legion being able to survive would deny advancement of the plot in same way?

It wouldn't. Of course, writing Thane and Legion out of the plot entirely wouldn't deny the advancement of the plot in any way either, because there are nigh-infinite alternative permutations you could choose to follow.

The same could be said about Shepard becoming a Spectre, given that the entire plot could have run the same had Shepard just been Alliance special forces. Shepard working with Cerberus in ME2 could have been rewritten to Shepard working with the Shadow Broker with minimal changes to the plot. The Reapers could have invaded in ME3 in just about any order, and the canonical plot structure remain intact.


But, and here's the kicker, this is all irrelevant to what you're lambasting. Canonical events or circumstances can occur without denying players choices or freedom of interpretation: player choices does not mean absolute control over all variables the player would like to have. Legion dying may be canonical, but how Legion dies is the results of player choices, and what that means is up to player interpretation.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

That's another problem.

With some outcomes, that don't effect how story progresses, it's canon, while with others it's based on players choices or imagination.

That's just a cop out move.
Certain choices exist and work because, Bioware said so.
Certain choices don't exist and/or work because, Bioware said so.


In other words, contrived to fit Bioware artistic vision.
Vision that is still not explained by Bioware and they refuse to even talk about it.

That's not a cop-out, that's an intrensic aspect of a video game.

All choices are arbitrary in the first place by virtue of being an artificial product, as are all results from those choices.

[Dean_the_Young]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Being vague about the story plot itself is good for poetry.

It is not good for prose.

A lot of prose writers would disagree with you. Madame Bovary is not a universal literary ideal, even though it's very good about not being vague about surroundings.

Most players of ME want to know what just happened. I'm sorry, but that is what people expected and you KNOW they did considering all the stuff you guys promised before release.

Please just stop pretending that this ending is good. Please. It's just insulting for both parties.

Mass Effect players were quite happy with the two previous games that had plenty of vague settings and events.

[TheShadowWolf911]

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

and yet we can't win after refusing the god child.

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:51 .

[CroGamer002]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Having a story that's 100% shaped by the player in a cinematic experience such as Mass Effect is simply not possible. Seems like you had some pretty unrealistic expectations for this game. Can't really blame the devs for that.

I'm sorry, but no.

I did not had unrealistic expectations.

I had expectations Bioware gave me:

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome."

And even then, how does making Thane and Legion live would make this already too lineral story less lineral?
It wouldn't.

Why?
Because when they die, it's only to serve that dramatic scene and it's forgotten.
Never spoked again.

You do not kill a character that matters to protagonist and just forget about it.
Sure, there are too many characters for that.

But, for most characters deaths are avoidable.
For this two? It's canon.
Then, why not acknowledge their deaths and sacrifices at least through the game?
Because they can die in ME2?
Well, then their deaths shouldn't be canon in that case.


How hard is to figure this out?

If they wanted to make it canon to serve the story, then make it matter in entire story, after deaths happen.
Making it just to serve in one scene and then get forgotten is bad writing.

[Dean_the_Young]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

and yet the God child still exists.

And yet you still have the freedom of interpretation what that means.

We could just as well say 'and yet Commander Shepard still exists', but that would be just as irrelevant to Tully's point.

[TheShadowWolf911]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

TullyAckland wrote...

The interpretation of a story is a personal thing, and it’s one of the most enjoyable aspects of an experience like this for many players. To tell you what we think would be to take away the validity of each player’s take on it.

And ultimately, our opinion on what is “really” happening is no more accurate than what a player believes when playing it. The interpretation of the story is a player choice, and like other choices in the game we don’t like to trample on it by definitively stating what is “canon”.

and yet the God child still exists.

And yet you still have the freedom of interpretation what that means.

We could just as well say 'and yet Commander Shepard still exists', but that would be just as irrelevant to Tully's point.

edited what i said, look at it and give me a response corresponding to it.

[CroGamer002]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It wouldn't. Of course, writing Thane and Legion out of the plot entirely wouldn't deny the advancement of the plot in any way either, because there are nigh-infinite alternative permutations you could choose to follow.

The same could be said about Shepard becoming a Spectre, given that the entire plot could have run the same had Shepard just been Alliance special forces. Shepard working with Cerberus in ME2 could have been rewritten to Shepard working with the Shadow Broker with minimal changes to the plot. The Reapers could have invaded in ME3 in just about any order, and the canonical plot structure remain intact.


But, and here's the kicker, this is all irrelevant to what you're lambasting. Canonical events or circumstances can occur without denying players choices or freedom of interpretation: player choices does not mean absolute control over all variables the player would like to have. Legion dying may be canonical, but how Legion dies is the results of player choices, and what that means is up to player interpretation.

If it advances the plot, then something being canon is fully understandable. Long enough it's not contrived.


Thane's and Legion's deaths don't advance the plot, not even Shepard's character. It's forgotten the moment scene is done.
Making their deaths canonical is nothing but a cheap stunt for drama.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Having a story that's 100% shaped by the player in a cinematic experience such as Mass Effect is simply not possible. Seems like you had some pretty unrealistic expectations for this game. Can't really blame the devs for that.

I'm sorry, but no.

I did not had unrealistic expectations.

I had expectations Bioware gave me:

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome."

Yeah, that's unreasonable expectations, dragged even further by what you've already said.

And even then, how does making Thane and Legion live would make this already too lineral story less lineral?
It wouldn't.

...which would be a counterargument for why they should be allowed to live, but hey.

Why?
Because when they die, it's only to serve that dramatic scene and it's forgotten.
Never spoked again.

Except for the post-mission chatter, or a certain Kai Leng scene, or whispers in the dreams.

If they wanted to make it canon to serve the story, then make it matter in entire story, after deaths happen.
Making it just to serve in one scene and then get forgotten is bad writing.

And that's an unreasonable expectation, because that's a personal view you're projecting. Plenty of people already get up in arms about Shepard showing any emotion at the time, let alone the chances to after.