168 réponses à ce sujet

[Dwarva]

No.

I just meant its a lot easier in real life to know how a person meant something because you have both words and tone to go with, as opposed to just a line of words.

Perhaps the way around this is to combine aspects of both dialogue wheel and without. Have the full sentence and have the intent afterwards (ie sarcastic, direct). I'm not sure. But all I know is that when all you have is a sentence of words you often have no idea what the meaning is behind it - with tone and infliction you can usually make a better stab at what the person means.

Modifié par Staarbux, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:01 .

[eroeru]

Staarbux wrote...

No.

I just meant its a lot easier in real life to know how a person meant something because you have both words and tone to go with, as opposed to just a line of words.

Perhaps the way around this is to combine aspects of both dialogue wheel and without. Have the full sentence and have the intent afterwards (ie sarcastic, direct). I'm not sure. But all I know is that when all you have is a sentence of words you often have no idea what the meaning is behind it - with tone and infliction you can usually make a better stab at what the person means.

But do you really (want to) hold a singular, pre-defined (via another situation) pragmatic and simple meaning behind your words? Cause that's what you can do in Hawke's shoes, and I sure as hell don't think (I want) my talks to be so simplistic (edit: to be more precise, "me talking - in itself, as is from my perspective" as opposed to "my talks"). Creativity is what DA2 abhors.

As to the comment you replied to, it only took leborum's post, and replied to it that if he/she picked a line in Origins "only to find out" it wasn't what he thought it was, then it very well HAD the meaning he thought, with the little addition of understanding the companion's (Leliana's) reaction as misinterpreting (which it was in this case - as it actually took place in interactive fiction, not a "cinematic experience").

Modifié par eroeru, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:18 .

[eroeru]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

leborum wrote...

Yeah, only sometimes I didn't know they weren't sarcastic until the NPC's reactions.  There were a couple of times I thought I was being snarky to Leliana ("Omigod, I love shoes too!") only to find out it was apparently totally sincere.

That's the reason I'm in favor of maintaing the "mood" icons on the dialogue wheel. I had a similar reaction many times in DA:O. I thought I was being serious, turned out to be sarcastic. Thought I was being funny, turned out to be cruel. Thought I was being kind, turned out to be patronizing. 

So irl when someone misinterprets you, does that interpretation retroactively change your intent?

Quoted the post in question for clarity's sake. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Staarbux wrote...



If, in real life, I say 'you're so dead' or something similar, you don't think the tone I use conveys my meaning? The way you say it makes it quite clear what you were inferring.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You were clear.  I just think you were incorrect.

If you think you can discern meaning from tone, how do you do that?  How do you know that you're right?

[rapscallioness]

Sarcastic Hawke FTW!!!

Absolutely loved it. It was so refreshing. A welcome break from all these monotoned, Clint Eastwood, wannabe's.

I hope they continue that option in DA3.

[Sylvius the Mad]

They should have left in the monotone option.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Staarbux wrote...



If, in real life, I say 'you're so dead' or something similar, you don't think the tone I use conveys my meaning? The way you say it makes it quite clear what you were inferring.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You were clear.  I just think you were incorrect.

If you think you can discern meaning from tone, how do you do that?  How do you know that you're right?

Not much a "people person", are you? You seriously don't know how to change your tone of voice to change the meanings of words or phrases?

Here's one: "Oh, I love you, Sylvius."

Was I being sarcastic? Friendly? Affectionate? Playful? That sentence can be VERY different, depending on how you interpret it. Seeing it written like that makes you very likely to misinterpret my meaning.

If you heard me say it out loud, though, you'd have a much greater chance of realizing what I meant, because my tone of voice, body language, and other small things would help to convey my intent.

Do you not understand that?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

sUiCiDeKiNgS13 wrote...

Few games are funny. Fewer games are funnier the entire way through. This is the only game where I just can't wait to hear what my sarcastic ass Hawke has to say. i was literally waiting for people to finish talking so I could be a smart-ass. This was one of the best innovations they put in this game. Bravo!

But they had to take away the neutal option to add a sarcastic one.

[Dwarva]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Staarbux wrote...



If, in real life, I say 'you're so dead' or something similar, you don't think the tone I use conveys my meaning? The way you say it makes it quite clear what you were inferring.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You were clear.  I just think you were incorrect.

If you think you can discern meaning from tone, how do you do that?  How do you know that you're right?

Oh well then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I think if you hear how someone says something it's generally quite easy to understand their intent. If you're having a conversation with someone IRL, can you tell if they're being sarcastic or sincere? if so, that means you're picking up on their tone and making a decision based on that. Most people make their meaning very obvious with their tone...

If someone said to you 'you're so dead' (my example from above), would you always, under every circumstance, assume they were being sincere and were looking to murder you?  If not, that would generally mean you can take their meaning from their tone...

Modifié par Staarbux, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Not much a "people person", are you? You seriously don't know how to change your tone of voice to change the meanings of words or phrases?

I want someone to convince that it's knowable at all by enumerating the tones and their meanings, or pointing me to a reference guide that does.

I'm looking for a system anyone can use, and so far you're all appealing to some sort of secret knowledge you won't share.  That's not a very accesible system.

Here's one: "Oh, I love you, Sylvius."

Was I being sarcastic? Friendly? Affectionate? Playful? That sentence can be VERY different, depending on how you interpret it. Seeing it written like that makes you very likely to misinterpret my meaning.

I would have no idae what you mean, because I can't read your mind.  I would need to compare that piece of information to everything else I know about you to determine what it might mean, and even then I might not be able to draw a useful conclusion.

If you heard me say it out loud, though, you'd have a much greater chance of realizing what I meant, because my tone of voice, body language, and other small things would help to convey my intent.

Do you not understand that?

I understand that you think those things convey information.  But without some sort of formal list, how do you know what they mean?  How do you know that they mean anything?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Staarbux wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Staarbux wrote...



If, in real life, I say 'you're so dead' or something similar, you don't think the tone I use conveys my meaning? The way you say it makes it quite clear what you were inferring.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

You were clear.  I just think you were incorrect.

If you think you can discern meaning from tone, how do you do that?  How do you know that you're right?

Oh well then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I think if you hear how someone says something it's generally quite easy to understand their intent. If you're having a conversation with someone IRL, can you tell if they're being sarcastic or sincere? if so, that means you're picking up on their tone and making a decision based on that. Most people make their meaning very obvious with their tone...

If someone said to you 'you're so dead' (my example from above), would you always, under every circumstance, assume they were being sincere and were looking to murder you?  If not, that would generally mean you can take their meaning from their tone...

Agreed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Staarbux wrote...

Oh well then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I think if you hear how someone says something it's generally quite easy to understand their intent. If you're having a conversation with someone IRL, can you tell if they're being sarcastic or sincere? if so, that means you're picking up on their tone and making a decision based on that. Most people make their meaning very obvious with their tone...

If someone said to you 'you're so dead' (my example from above), would you always, under every circumstance, assume they were being sincere and were looking to murder you?  If not, that would generally mean you can take their meaning from their tone...

In the spoken language, I find the lack of audible punctuation extremely problematic.  It is for this reason that I deem the written language superior.

And, no, it would be foolish of me to assume anything.  One shouldn't ever draw unnecessary conclusions.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:12 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Staarbux wrote...

Oh well then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I think if you hear how someone says something it's generally quite easy to understand their intent. If you're having a conversation with someone IRL, can you tell if they're being sarcastic or sincere? if so, that means you're picking up on their tone and making a decision based on that. Most people make their meaning very obvious with their tone...

If someone said to you 'you're so dead' (my example from above), would you always, under every circumstance, assume they were being sincere and were looking to murder you?  If not, that would generally mean you can take their meaning from their tone...

In the spoken language, I find the lack of audible punctuation extremely problematic.  It is for this reason that I deem the written language superior.

Of course. He never stated otherwise. If I were conversing with someone who's first language wasn't english, I would have a difficult time interpreting their intent based on their tone alone. I would then have to be more formal.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I understand that you think those things convey information.  But without some sort of formal list, how do you know what they mean?  How do you know that they mean anything?

Now you're just trolling. Or perhaps insane. Not sure.

[eroeru]

I agree with Sylvius, though would concentrate on the question "what is meaning".

People's inner life is far more complicated than DA2 makes it look. But DAO had a way with the character presentation that made it much more probable that you could actually put yourself in the character's shoes, as opposed to "feel for him", "relate to him" or in DA2's case "laugh about his mocking the set-up".

[eroeru]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I understand that you think those things convey information.  But without some sort of formal list, how do you know what they mean?  How do you know that they mean anything?

Now you're just trolling. Or perhaps insane. Not sure.

How do you understand/know meaning?

You can guess other's meaning, but you can only feel firsthand your own.

edits: "guessing" is probabilistic, and you cannot tell anything for sure - but it is only from the firsthand experience that you can tell 100% sure that there actually IS intent and WHAT it is.

But about the post that started this discussion: if you take Leliana to misinterpret you, then all's fine, and you're not justified to think that the text conveyed another meaning than the one you intended.

People misinterpret all the time - strictly speaking and in some degree, always - though they could still act out their pragmatics ("normally functioning" responses) just fine. Yet the point is that it is normal enough for people to misinterpret you even in the level of pragmatics, as did Leliana in the original post's example. Game that has this possibility built into it is better even (in perspective of role playing - in virtue of more possible interpretations of intent). 

Modifié par eroeru, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I understand that you think those things convey information.  But without some sort of formal list, how do you know what they mean?  How do you know that they mean anything?

Now you're just trolling. Or perhaps insane. Not sure.

You are dodging the question.

Do you not know how you interpret tone?  If not, how do you know you do it correctly?

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I understand that you think those things convey information.  But without some sort of formal list, how do you know what they mean?  How do you know that they mean anything?

Of course. Because I'm a human being. I learned how to understand and convey tone through decades of interaction with other human beings. I know I'm doing it right, because people rarely say, "That's not what I meant!", and we are able to carry on conversation full of meaning and inflection, rarely a missed cue. It's not something you can learn from formal lists and books, it's intristic.

I don't know the mechanics of how my muscles and tendons move my bones, but I know I'm walking correctly because I get from point A to point B without falling over.

Sylvius the Mad wrote... 

Do you not know how you interpret tone?  If not, how do you know you do it correctly?

You're thinking of it backwards, in terms of the game. It's not about interpretting tone, it's about conveying tone. Do you not know how to convey tone?

[Dwarva]

^ Honey you're saying everything I want to say but dont have the energy for

[Maclimes]

Let me grab an in-game example that I've used before. Leliana is a Bard. One of the most important parts of her training is the ability to detect lies, understand what people are really thinking, and what they really mean. She's very unlikely to misinterpret something, unless you were intentionally lying (and doing so quite well).

Leliana mentions how much she loves shoes. The Warden has the option to reply "Oh, I love shoes!"

Did he roll his eyes, and say it in a sarcastic tone of voice?
Did he clap his hands together, his voicing going up an octave when he said it?
Did he raise one eyebrow, and attempt the line in a sleezy, pick-up line style voice?

The answer: The second one. You don't know until afterwards, because Leliana reacts as if that is what you did. If you had done the first one, she would have reacted as if you had made a joke at her expense. If the third one, she would have reacted as if you were being creepy.

But you don't know that until AFTER you have picked it! You NEED to know the tone and meaning behind the words you are saying BEFORE you pick it. Otherwise, you have LESS control over your character. DA2, in many ways, gave us more control over Hawke's personality than DA:O did.

Modifié par Maclimes, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Of course. Because I'm a human being. I learned how to understand and convey tone through decades of interaction with other human beings. I know I'm doing it right, because people rarely say, "That's not what I meant!", and we are able to carry on conversation full of meaning and inflection, rarely a missed cue. It's not something you can learn from formal lists and books, it's intristic.

I don't know the mechanics of how my muscles and tendons move my bones, but I know I'm walking correctly because I get from point A to point B without falling over.

That's results-based analysis.  That's remarkably sloppy.

You're thinking of it backwards, in terms of the game. It's not about interpretting tone, it's about conveying tone. Do you not know how to convey tone?

I don't see why I would want to.  If I'm trying to express something, I can use words for that.  Why rely on a tool that lacks useful definitions?

I don't think I can use tone is a way that benefits me at all, no.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:57 .

[eroeru]

Maclimes wrote...

Let me grab an in-game example that I've used before. Leliana is a Bard. One of the most important parts of her training is the ability to detect lies, understand what people are really thinking, and what they really mean. She's very unlikely to misinterpret something, unless you were intentionally lying (and doing so quite well).

Aah, a good point. Yet I always presume that she can a bit "slow". I wonder what makes me think that. 

Yet I do need to say that your example is a special case. And if I'd to express a more personal opinion, I need to say I always prefer more possible shades of intentions, even if it mars the lore. 

edit: also, I tend to ignore "given truths". I can easily believe Leliana is horrible in detecting tone, even if the lore says otherwise - it's what people actually do in front of you that counts, not what is said about them or their reputation. Though, once again, this might be more of a personal preference of personal experience over lore or hear-say.

Modifié par eroeru, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:02 .

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I don't think I can use tone is a way that benefits me at all, no.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Let me grab an in-game example that I've used before. Leliana is a Bard. One of the most important parts of her training is the ability to detect lies, understand what people are really thinking, and what they really mean. She's very unlikely to misinterpret something, unless you were intentionally lying (and doing so quite well).

Leliana mentions how much she loves shoes. The Warden has the option to reply "Oh, I love shoes!"

Did he roll his eyes, and say it in a sarcastic tone of voice?
Did he clap his hands together, his voicing going up an octave when he said it?
Did he raise one eyebrow, and attempt the line in a sleezy, pick-up line style voice?

The answer: The second one. You don't know until afterwards, because Leliana reacts as if that is what you did. If you had done the first one, she would have reacted as if you had made a joke at her expense. If the third one, she would have reacted as if you were being creepy.

Or she could have reacted in that same way despite the first delivery because she's indifferent to your sarcasm.  Or she could have reacted in that same way despite the third delivery because she's embarrassed for you and doesn't want to draw attention to what you just did.

There are any number of reasons why Leliana might react the way she does, and you're simply not privy to them.  The reaction doesn't tell you how the PC spoke.  I don't understand why you think it does.  Is it that you need to imagine how something can be true to allow for the possibiltiy that it might?  That would produce a remarkably narrow view of the world.