168 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

eroeru wrote...

edit: also, I tend to ignore "given truths". I can easily believe Leliana is horrible in detecting tone, even if the lore says otherwise - it's what people actually do in front of you that counts, not what is said about them or their reputation. Though, once again, this might be more of a personal preference of personal experience over lore or hear-say.

You don't even need to ignore those "given truths".  Just because you know Leliana is good at detecting lies doesn't mean that the Warden does.  Leliana could be trying to convince the Warden that she is not good at detecting lies.  We can't know, because we can't read her mind.

[eroeru]

^^ o.o
*claps hands*

edit: I better not exhaust myself with this conversation anymore, Sylvius seems to have a wonderful grasp on things (i.e. I agree with him even now that he contradicted my last post), and explains them accordingly - much better than I'm able to, in my current tired state. 

Modifié par eroeru, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[Maclimes]

*sigh* Nonetheless, the point is this: When I speak in the real world, I get to choose my words AND I get to choose my tone. The combination of those two things creates meaning.

I want that same choice in game.

If I choose the same line, but in a sarcastic tone of voice, I want the NPC to react appropriately, because I want my choice to matter.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

*sigh* Nonetheless, the point is this: When I speak in the real world, I get to choose my words AND I get to choose my tone. The combination of those two things creates meaning.

I want that same choice in game.

I can certainly get behind this.  I'd like to choose the line and the tone, as well, because that would mean I'd get to choose the line, and that's all I really need.

DA2 did not let us choose the line.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DA2 did not let us choose the line.

And DA:O did not let us choose the tone. Both games were incomplete.

[eroeru]

Come to think of it, you really can read A LOT about intention from another person's tone - but much less from a reaction to a (silent) line.

Less is better, in this case, in my opinion. As in addition to not letting us choose the line, ][ forced a tone on us. This took away a lot of intentions.

*nearly falls asleep from the 1 am lurking on web-sites*

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DA2 did not let us choose the line.

And DA:O did not let us choose the tone. Both games were incomplete.

Assuming tone is relevant, yes.

I simply don't assume that.  You don't have to, either.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DA2 did not let us choose the line.

And DA:O did not let us choose the tone. Both games were incomplete.

Assuming tone is relevant, yes.

I simply don't assume that.  You don't have to, either.

I spent years being a professional liar (read: salesman). Trust me: If you use the right tone, body language, and voice, you can literally say "I would like to steal your money. Give it to me." and they WILL, with a smile on their face! It's insane.

But it also means tone is relevant. HOWEVER...

There is another option. There's that compass that I've seen floating around. It forgoes the whole "full text" thing, AND it forgoes the straight "tone" thing. So it sounds like it has neither of what we want, but I think it addresses most of the issues. It's more of a "intent/train of thought" style choice, and I support it fully. If that was implemented, I'd be a happy camper indeed.

[rapscallioness]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They should have left in the monotone option.

As opposed to the sarcastic option? No. Absolutely not. In addition? Diplomatic;Aggressive;Sarcastic;Neutral? Sure, why not.

But the "investigate" lines are pretty neutral in tone themselves.

But you just prefer a silent PC altogether. I do not prefer a silent PC.

[Maclimes]

rapscallioness wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They should have left in the monotone option.

As opposed to the sarcastic option? No. Absolutely not. In addition? Diplomatic;Aggressive;Sarcastic;Neutral? Sure, why not.

But the "investigate" lines are pretty neutral in tone themselves.

But you just prefer a silent PC altogether. I do not prefer a silent PC.

I made an argument that the "Sarcastic" option was the biggest failing. Not because it wasn't humorous or whatever, but because it was your only neutral option. It's either "I'm a jerk!", "I'm a saint!", or "I'm an inappropriate ass!" Should have been Diplomatic/Aggressive and Sarcastic/Wise. The Wise choice is neutral, with tones of careful and thoughtful.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

I spent years being a professional liar (read: salesman). Trust me: If you use the right tone, body language, and voice, you can literally say "I would like to steal your money. Give it to me." and they WILL, with a smile on their face! It's insane.

Those people were dumb.  I want the technical specifications of your product, and the price.  I do not trust you to tell me what the product does nor how I can benefit from it (especially the latter), because you can't know how I intend to use it.

But it also means tone is relevant.

It means tone has an effect on some people.  It does not mean tone conveys information.

There is another option. There's that compass that I've seen floating around. It forgoes the whole "full text" thing, AND it forgoes the straight "tone" thing. So it sounds like it has neither of what we want, but I think it addresses most of the issues. It's more of a "intent/train of thought" style choice, and I support it fully. If that was implemented, I'd be a happy camper indeed.

Intent rather than tone would be a significant impovement, I think.  I've seen that compass.

I am a bit concerned about a "train of thought" aspect, though, because the train of thought is going to be unique to each character.  That train of thought is what informs my dialogue choice, but it might be wildly different from what the writers expected.  Remember the greedy merchant in Lothering in DAO?  You could side with him and drive off the angry mob, but there are a great many reasons why you might have done that.  I'd hate to feel like I was forced to choose that option for a specific reason.

[Sylvius the Mad]

rapscallioness wrote...

But the "investigate" lines are pretty neutral in tone themselves.

That's true.  And that was great.

I didn't like, though, that I knew the investigate lines wouldn't advance the conversations.  I preferred the options being presented equally so I wouldn;t know the outcome.

Also, I found the Action choices (the triple arrow) were the hardest to choose between because the paraphrases very often bore no resemblance at all to the spoken line, and there was no tone indicator given to help me out.

But you just prefer a silent PC altogether. I do not prefer a silent PC.

I prefer a PC I can control.  IF they give me a voiced PC I can control, I'll be pretty happy about that.

But they haven't managed it yet.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Those people were dumb.  I want the technical specifications of your product, and the price.  I do not trust you to tell me what the product does nor how I can benefit from it (especially the latter), because you can't know how I intend to use it.

I totally agree. Not debating that point. That's how I handle things as well. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote... 
It means tone has an effect on some people.  It does not mean tone conveys information.

Never had a girl tell you, "Nothing's wrong, I don't want to talk about it", I take it?

Sylvius the Mad wrote...  
I am a bit concerned about a "train of thought" aspect, though, because the train of thought is going to be unique to each character.  That train of thought is what informs my dialogue choice, but it might be wildly different from what the writers expected.  Remember the greedy merchant in Lothering in DAO?  You could side with him and drive off the angry mob, but there are a great many reasons why you might have done that.  I'd hate to feel like I was forced to choose that option for a specific reason.

True. But as long as the reasoning is never referenced, we get the same advantage of the silent protagonist.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Never had a girl tell you, "Nothing's wrong, I don't want to talk about it", I take it?

Sure I have, and I take it literally (though that specific phrasing is internally contradictory - if nothing is wrong, then there is no "it" about which not to talk).  If she says she doesn't want to talk, then I let her not talk.  To presume otherwise is patronising.

I wouldn't want her to ignore the literal content of what I say, so I don't ignore the literal content of what she says.  Treat others and you would like to be treated - isn't that the Golden Rule?

True. But as long as the reasoning is never referenced, we get the same advantage of the silent protagonist.

As long as we can tell what it is we're choosing, yes.  There are many ways BioWare could improve this voiced protagonist system.  I'm curious to see what they choose.

[rapscallioness]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

But the "investigate" lines are pretty neutral in tone themselves.

That's true.  And that was great.

I didn't like, though, that I knew the investigate lines wouldn't advance the conversations.  I preferred the options being presented equally so I wouldn;t know the outcome.

Also, I found the Action choices (the triple arrow) were the hardest to choose between because the paraphrases very often bore no resemblance at all to the spoken line, and there was no tone indicator given to help me out.

But you just prefer a silent PC altogether. I do not prefer a silent PC.

I prefer a PC I can control.  IF they give me a voiced PC I can control, I'll be pretty happy about that.

But they haven't managed it yet.

Okay. I like that. I can hear ya on that one.

Triple arrows: yeah, I don't even remember any examples of those. so, yeah...

As far as investigate lines: I kinda prefer when they don't end the conversation abruptly. There were times in DAO when I'm going through my dialogue, and somehow I would get looped out the convo. Well, I would think, maybe later then.

It's helpful in not exhausting all your dialogue right away. Because I will exhaust all my dialogue in one setting if I can.

The thing for me is that after coming from Mass Effect, and really most games with a voiced PC, it's always been Saint/Jerk/Neutral. For me, it was so nice to have a different option.

Especially when you're dealing with a pompous jerk. To be able to give them "the cut direct" without actually having to cut their throat. Like one line in DA2 I love when some Dalish is telling Hawke, "You da na belong here, Shem..."

And Hawke says, "But what about my....Maker, where did my self-righteousness and pointy ears go?" I didn't feel like being diplomatic. Yet, it didn't call for an aggressive bark, either. And a neutral response would not have been quite enough for me.

I loved that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That you occasionally get lines you really like doesn't change the fact that you getting a good line right then was purely luck. You had no idea what Hawke was going to say.

rapscallioness wrote...

The thing for me is that after coming from Mass Effect, and really most games with a voiced PC, it's always been Saint/Jerk/Neutral. For me, it was so nice to have a different option.

I don't compare DA2 to other voiced PC games, because I haven't yet seen a voiced PC game that was any good at all, so I don't care how DA2 measures up.

I care about how DA2 compares to games I've actually liked, which have all been silent PC games.  And silent PC games didn't limit me to Saint/Jerk/Neutral.  Silent PC games didn't limit me at all.

So DA2 compares very poorly.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:14 .

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote... 

I wouldn't want her to ignore the literal content of what I say, so I don't ignore the literal content of what she says.  Treat others and you would like to be treated - isn't that the Golden Rule?

 

Yes. Which is why I expect people to observe my tone and meaning, not just words.

Sylvius the Mad wrote... 

As long as we can tell what it is we're choosing, yes.  There are many ways BioWare could improve this voiced protagonist system.  I'm curious to see what they choose.

Indeed. Theorycrafting and internet arguing is fun and all, but at the end of the day, neither of us will be making DA3.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius, you need a manifesto or something somewhere. Would be a good read.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote... 

I wouldn't want her to ignore the literal content of what I say, so I don't ignore the literal content of what she says.  Treat others and you would like to be treated - isn't that the Golden Rule?

Yes. Which is why I expect people to observe my tone and meaning, not just words.

The Golden Rule is about you doing things, not requiring behaviour in others.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius, you need a manifesto or something somewhere. Would be a good read.

Crap, I forgot.  I'm supposed to be giving someone comments on his manifesto.  I need to get to that.

Thanks for the reminder.

[rapscallioness]

So DA2 compares very poorly.[/quote]

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That you occasionally get lines
you really like doesn't change the fact that you getting a good line
right then was purely luck. You had no idea what Hawke was going to say.
[quote]

And I'm okay with that. You obviously are not. But hey, there's always Bethesda, right?

Sylvius wrote:
"I don't compare DA2 to other voiced PC games, because I haven't yet seen
a voiced PC game that was any good at all, so I don't care how DA2
measures up."

I thought that's what we were talking about. DA2. Or, was this just another platform for you to try and push your agenda to get BW to go retro.

Silent PC doesn't limit you at all? There's always limits. There's always things you can't say that you want to say. There are things you can't do that you may want to.

If the only games you like are silent PC games, then maybe it's time for you to say goodbye to BW. Because they're not going back. You hate DA2 so much, yet you're here every friggin' day. Go play those silent PC, wandering in a sandbox games you like. You hate Dragon Age so much. Now.

[Sylvius the Mad]

rapscallioness wrote...

I thought that's what we were talking about. DA2. Or, was this just another platform for you to try and push your agenda to get BW to go retro.

We're talking about DA2, but I'm comparing it only to silent PC games, because those are the games that have been good.  No voiced PC game has succeeded at giving me the roleplaying control I want, so I don't care how DA2 compares to them.

Silent PC doesn't limit you at all?

In terms of how each line is delivered?  No, it doesn't.

That was the discussion at hand.  If you want to apply what I said to an irrelevant context, go right ahead.

If the only games you like are silent PC games, then maybe it's time for you to say goodbye to BW.

Or, instead of being defeatist and giving up, I could try to make those games better.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[rapscallioness]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

I thought that's what we were talking about. DA2. Or, was this just another platform for you to try and push your agenda to get BW to go retro.

We're talking about DA2, but I'm comparing it only to silent PC games, because those are the games that have been good.  No voiced PC game has succeeded at giving me the roleplaying control I want, so I don't care how DA2 compares to them.

Silent PC doesn't limit you at all?

In terms of how each line is delivered?  No, it doesn't.

That was the discussion at hand.  If you want to apply what I said to an irrelevant context, go right ahead.

If the only games you like are silent PC games, then maybe it's time for you to say goodbye to BW.

Or, instead of being defeatist and giving up, I could try to make those games better.

Silent PC games are the only games that have been good to you. In your opinion. Your opinion is not God's word.

And so, I was right, you do just want a silent PC. You don't care about tone.

You know, I'm all for not giving up on something that's important to you. But it seems like everytime anyone has anything good to say either about Hawke, or DA2 in general, you pounce.

You're relentless with it. Like a zealot trying to purge the forums of its heretics.

[Tyrium]

I love sarcastic Hawke, and yeah, choosing the line and the tone would be best, but it's not practical on a dialogue wheel. Given a choice, DA2's way is definitely better.

I've been spoiled by voiced protagonists, I have trouble connecting to silent protagonists these days. A voiced protagonist feels much more like a real person, with inflection and speech to me, and I prefer that.

[aldien]

eroeru wrote...

Staarbux wrote...

No.

I just meant its a lot easier in real life to know how a person meant something because you have both words and tone to go with, as opposed to just a line of words.

Perhaps the way around this is to combine aspects of both dialogue wheel and without. Have the full sentence and have the intent afterwards (ie sarcastic, direct). I'm not sure. But all I know is that when all you have is a sentence of words you often have no idea what the meaning is behind it - with tone and infliction you can usually make a better stab at what the person means.

But do you really (want to) hold a singular, pre-defined (via another situation) pragmatic and simple meaning behind your words? Cause that's what you can do in Hawke's shoes, and I sure as hell don't think (I want) my talks to be so simplistic (edit: to be more precise, "me talking - in itself, as is from my perspective" as opposed to "my talks"). Creativity is what DA2 abhors.

As to the comment you replied to, it only took leborum's post, and replied to it that if he/she picked a line in Origins "only to find out" it wasn't what he thought it was, then it very well HAD the meaning he thought, with the little addition of understanding the companion's (Leliana's) reaction as misinterpreting (which it was in this case - as it actually took place in interactive fiction, not a "cinematic experience").

What what? That is some major double talk backslash with a twist of lemon. No... DA2 doesn't abhor creativity because that would imply you understand, without predjudice, exactly what the creators of DA2 emotionally had in mind. Also, it would suggest that no one could use their imagination if words and voice were mixed.

Well... there are no mind readers on planet Earth as far as I know. You can still have the internal dialogue even if stated by a female/male va. She, perhaps he (that's debatable) just happens to deliver the lines better than what most of us hear in our minds. I guess we get jealous.

What is pragmatic about a sarcastic Hawke? Nothing. Pragmatism is out the door on this one. But a mix of cinematic and traditional might be a good compromise for the new generation of rpg fans and the old. To dismiss it entirely is to say you have all the answers. No one does.

Human psychology has already decided that speaking is less communicative than body language. Tonal inflection would definitely be understood on a higher cognitive level than emotionless words. Some people prefer voice and other prefer to read words. I suspect these two are at odds, like apples and oranges, but the idea to mix the two should not be dismissed because one prefers the other.

Modifié par aldien, 14 juillet 2012 - 12:41 .