167 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

In Dragon Age 2 as well as Dragon Age: Origins we got the same problem where everyone used only some attributes that amtter most for certain classes. Warriors always leveled Str-Vil-Dex, Mages - Mag-Wil-Vit, Rogues - Dex-Cun- Str.  Let's see Dexterity
Dragon Age: Origins:

• Increases melee attack score by 0.5 per point above 10
• Increases ranged attack score by 0.5 per point above 10
• Increases damage from piercing weapons (per weapon-specific attribute modifiers)
• Increases defense by 1 per point above 10
• Increases physical resistance by 0.5 per point above 10

Dragon Age 2:

• Increases basic attack damage for rogues by 0.5 per each point above 10.
• Increases damage for rogue abilities.
• Increases attack for rogues
• Increases critical hit chance by 1% per each point above 10.
• Increases force for rogue abilities/attacks.

As we can see the situation worsened considerably as DA2 directly linked attributes to certain classes and removed an element of inventing different builds. So now we have no reason to add Str to Rogue or Cun to Mage, only willpower and const remained a bit versalite a they added to Health and Stamina\\Mana.

In my opinion the system should be reworked completely. Even Dragon Age: Origins system was not nice at all as it resutled in pretty much the same. DA2 dumbed down attribute system to complete primitivism but DA:O still left us little choice than STR-Vit warrior or Mag-Wil mage, just with little variations.
So what i am proposing is the most commonly seen solution - make each attribut provide different benefits for different classes. For example:
Dexterity: Rogue- crit chance, Mage - spell cooldown time, Warrior - attack speed.
Cunning: Rogue - crit damage, Mage - chance to critically hit with spell, Warrior - armor penetration.
and so on
That's just what first came into my mind and I bet someone canfind more useful and effective bonuses to attr, especially for difficult one, like Str for Mages, but still it will enchance the system and replayability.

[Tokion]

I totally agree the attribute system leaves the player with little to no choice but to stack the main stat for their class, meaning other stats are next to useless. I wish there are more incentive to use the other attribute such as dialogue checks, leveling a skill, unlocking a class etc.

In Diablo 3, Blizzard completely removed the attribute leveling system because it was unnecessary. In turn, they overhauled the entire skill systems, which made leveling your skills so much more fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would be more for a set-attribute system, myself, where your strength score is the same strength score the majority of the game.

That way, you would only have to worry about dealing with balanced attributes once, as opposed to every time you level up, having to pump the same old points in the same old format to give you the exact same balance/focus you would have from the beginning.

This would require removing some truly worthless attributes (I'd say probably Magic and Cunning) and then having the remaining attributes in question apply to the player throughout the whole game.

After all, the attribute numbers are totally non-sensical in both DA:O and DA2. A Warrior starts out with 20 Strength, which is good for level one, but needs to keep pumping that to get them to a 60 strength at Level 20... which is only equally as good with enemy level scaling? Wah?

If my numbers are three times higher, does that mean my character is three times stronger? No, I can't suddenly lift boulders and toss them like in a Zelda game. So it basically results in nonsense number spamming.

If we have set attributes during character creation, this allows more diverse but sustainable builds throughout the whole game.

[Provi-dance]

Yep, the attribute system in DAO had some glaring balance issues (but was more or less on the right track).
On the other hand, the attribute system in DA2 is simply bad. Primary attributes obliterated all variability, which makes it an awful concept for RPGs.

Modifié par Provi-dance, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:08 .

[Cultist]

In my opinion attributes should serve different goals:
- Have influence on quests. i.e. Fallout: New Vegas where you need certain value of skill to accesss said options to solve quests and conversations.
- Have influence on player power. So player can experimentwith different builds and find successful builds. Like crit-warrior, tank warrior or attack speed warrior.
- Serve as a means to progress player's ability to deal with difficult problems, as he advances the game story.

[Wulfram]

I don't have a major problem with Warriors having high STR and CON, Mages having high MAG and WIL and Rogues having high DEX and CUN. That pretty much makes sense to me.

I would like to remove the necessity to keep pumping points into your attack stat just to keep your hit chance steady, your damage respectable and to be able to equip the better items.

If you did that, and reduced the amount of bonus stat points per level to 1, that would be an improvement I think.

[MichaelStuart]

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

[Fast Jimmy]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

My only problem with this is mages. 

You have to be born a mage to have the talent of wielding magic. Unless you give every character the ability to wield magic (and, hence, make them a mage, unable to allow people as either dwarves or templars), this becomes a big issue. This isn't Fallout where wielding a big gun means you just have to be strong enough to lift it. Being able to wield magic is an-inborn trait and those who do have that trait are usually caught at a young age and raised in a particular manner, including their battle training.

It just becomes very difficult to navigate in the DA world.

[Fallstar]

Optimal builds in DAO were just as focused on one or two attributes as DA2. Warriors got the required dexterity for their type then just pumped strength. Rogues got a bit of dex/cun then pumped one of them depending on whether you were making a dex tank or cunning backstabber. Mages get a little bit of willpower then pump magic. Since you get to 16 cunning from the fade boosts for master coercion, there was never a need to balance attributes in the slightest.

Certain attributes were effectively linked to certain classes. Even if your strength is already 60 or so as a warrior, an extra point of strength still does more for your build than a point of cunning or willpower. The only way I can see this changing is if increased attribute scores give diminishing returns similar to +% dam types in DA2. Personally I'd rather they left it as it is, I found the diminishing returns thing a bit irritating.

So if it is a problem, it's been a problem since the beginning.

[Amycus89]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would be more for a set-attribute system, myself, where your strength score is the same strength score the majority of the game.

I agree, I really liked that in BG2 (except for the eternal dicerolling right before making your character, you can remove that part), and it really felt like a sacriface once you had to lose one stat for story reasons (in the DA games, sacrifacing a companion to preserva a stat point would be laughable, but in BG it was something that I could seriously consider for a moment).

I think one should still be able to find "skill books" to raise your stats with one point when used, but of course these should be rare.

[Fast Jimmy]

Amycus89 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would be more for a set-attribute system, myself, where your strength score is the same strength score the majority of the game.

I agree, I really liked that in BG2 (except for the eternal dicerolling right before making your character, you can remove that part), and it really felt like a sacriface once you had to lose one stat for story reasons (in the DA games, sacrifacing a companion to preserva a stat point would be laughable, but in BG it was something that I could seriously consider for a moment).

I think one should still be able to find "skill books" to raise your stats with one point when used, but of course these should be rare.

Honestly, I think every RPG should modify and adapt something akin to Fallout's SPECIAL system. It covers all bases, its simple and it works. 

[Marvin_Arnold]

Warriors got the required dexterity for their type then just pumped strength.

...nnnnot entirely true. You could create some formidable dual-wielding DEX based warriors in DA:O. (I know because I love that build, and I used it on my first playthrough because I fould it fitting for an elf). I even did this once to Alistair when my character was the (2H) tank of the group, with splendid results.

This, of course, became impossible in DA2, but as we know that wasn't a RPG...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 12 juillet 2012 - 12:23 .

[MichaelStuart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

My only problem with this is mages. 

You have to be born a mage to have the talent of wielding magic. Unless you give every character the ability to wield magic (and, hence, make them a mage, unable to allow people as either dwarves or templars), this becomes a big issue. This isn't Fallout where wielding a big gun means you just have to be strong enough to lift it. Being able to wield magic is an-inborn trait and those who do have that trait are usually caught at a young age and raised in a particular manner, including their battle training.

It just becomes very difficult to navigate in the DA world.

My solution to this is to treat Mages like a race and not a class.
If you choose to be a Mage you will be giving the opportunity to learn spells, but can still learn fighting and stealth skills if you prefer.
Being a Mage you will have to deal with Templars and Demons more than if you were a non-Mage

[Fallstar]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

Warriors got the required dexterity for their type then just pumped strength.

...nnnnot entirely true. You could create some formidable dual-wielding DEX based warriors in DA:O. (I know because I love that build, and I used it on my first playthrough because I fould it fitting for an elf). I even did this once to Alistair when my character was the (2H) tank of the group, with splendid results.

This, of course, became impossible in DA2, but as we know that wasn't a RPG...

OK, the dual dagger dex build is perfectly viable. I would argue whether the dual dagger dex build actually matches the DPS of the dual full size str build, but that debate was so 2010.  But the dex warrior still requires dump statting at the end of the day, except this time you get a bit of strength for your gear then go for dex.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[Wulfram]

I liked my dex focused S&S warrior in origins. May not have been optimal, but whatever. Hardly anyone could hit me.

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 juillet 2012 - 01:51 .

[Maclimes]

Cultist wrote...

n my opinion the system should be reworked completely. Even Dragon Age: Origins system was not nice at all as it resutled in pretty much the same. DA2 dumbed down attribute system to complete primitivism but DA:O still left us little choice than STR-Vit warrior or Mag-Wil mage, just with little variations. So what i am proposing is the most commonly seen solution - make each attribut provide different benefits for different classes. For example:Dexterity: Rogue- crit chance, Mage - spell cooldown time, Warrior - attack speed.Cunning: Rogue - crit damage, Mage - chance to critically hit with spell, Warrior - armor penetration.and so onThat's just what first came into my mind and I bet someone canfind more useful and effective bonuses to attr, especially for difficult one, like Str for Mages, but still it will enchance the system and replayability.

I would actually take this a step further. Instead of attempting to rename things and cause confusion between classes ("When I played a warrior, Cunning helped with AP. Now as a Mage it's Crit chance?"), just scrap it altogether.

Have only relevant attributes.

Rogues won't even have a Magic score. They would have the following:

• Dexterity - Dodge chance
• Precision - Ranged/Melee Attack Chance
• Strength - Melee Damage
• Coordination - Ranged Damage
• Constitution - Health
• Willpower - Stamina
• Cunning - Detect traps, disarm traps, pick locks

Warriors would have:

• Dexterity - Dodge chance
• Precision - Melee Attack Chance
• Strength - Melee Attack Damage
• Fortitude - Innate Armor Bonus
• Constitution - Health
• Willpower - Stamina
• Finesse - Break locks

Mages would have:

• Dexterity - Dodge chance
• Focus - Magic Attack Chance
• Power - Magic Attack Damage
• Awareness - 
  Detect traps, disarm traps
• Constitution - Health
• Willpower - Mana
• Resistance - Innate Magical Resistance

***

This way, every attribute that they have is relevant for every class. And the ones that are shared (Constitution for all three, Precision for Rogue and Warrior) would have identical mechanics so there was no confusion. Mages could disarm traps, but not pick locks. Warriors could "pick" locks (with a chance to ruin the contents of the container, perhaps), but not disarm traps.

[Tymvir]

I've always liked the perks in Fallout's "S.P.E.C.I.A.L" system where useful perks have certain attribute requirements. This way, even attributes that would be useless for your most important skills could still be valuable if you're going for a particular perk setup. For example, high intelligence could give warriors access to a mental resistance perk, so that crowd control abilities would be less dangerous to them. Perks allow for quite flexible character builds.

[philippe willaume]

Cultist wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 as well as Dragon Age: Origins we got the same problem where everyone used only some attributes that amtter most for certain classes. Warriors always leveled Str-Vil-Dex, Mages - Mag-Wil-Vit, Rogues - Dex-Cun- Str.  Let's see Dexterity
Dragon Age: Origins:

• Increases melee attack score by 0.5 per point above 10
  
• Increases ranged attack score by 0.5 per point above 10
  
• Increases damage from piercing weapons (per weapon-specific attribute modifiers)
  
• Increases defense by 1 per point above 10
  
• Increases physical resistance by 0.5 per point above 10

Dragon Age 2:

• Increases basic attack damage for rogues by 0.5 per each point above 10.
  
• Increases damage for rogue abilities.
  
• Increases attack for rogues
  
• Increases critical hit chance by 1% per each point above 10.
  
• Increases force for rogue abilities/attacks.

As we can see the situation worsened considerably as DA2 directly linked attributes to certain classes and removed an element of inventing different builds. So now we have no reason to add Str to Rogue or Cun to Mage, only willpower and const remained a bit versalite a they added to Health and StaminaMana.

In my opinion the system should be reworked completely. Even Dragon Age: Origins system was not nice at all as it resutled in pretty much the same. DA2 dumbed down attribute system to complete primitivism but DA:O still left us little choice than STR-Vit warrior or Mag-Wil mage, just with little variations.
So what i am proposing is the most commonly seen solution - make each attribut provide different benefits for different classes. For example:
Dexterity: Rogue- crit chance, Mage - spell cooldown time, Warrior - attack speed.
Cunning: Rogue - crit damage, Mage - chance to critically hit with spell, Warrior - armor penetration.
and so on
That's just what first came into my mind and I bet someone canfind more useful and effective bonuses to attr, especially for difficult one, like Str for Mages, but still it will enchance the system and replayability.

I think with that system you will have a similar dilemma as the current system.
The effect game effect is not dissociated from the value of the char so it is hard to balance and it will probably favour homogenisation of the char across all character type
 
But I thing that making the attribute works for each char is the right way to go.
So may be we could take it a step further.
 
Instead of spending point in strength to get a number. You could chose ability or usage of a tool that depends of physical attribute.
Instead of using attribute to calculated game statistics they are based on the level (and the classes and race) and the attribute only gives bonus or dropping the non proficiency penalty.
 
Something along those line
If you not trained -10% to all the game statistics related to the skill or equipment used.
there could be 4 levels for each attribute. to gain acces to the next level you need to select the level below
 
Strength I
Single weapons (axe, mace, longsword)
Normal shields
Javelin
Break (door/chest simple)
Open hand combat
Powerful blow (damage +0.25% per level for single handed weapons and +0.5% for two handed weapons)
(note level is to be understood as character level.)
 
Dexterity I
Throwing (knives)
Dual wielding one handed weapon +knife
Bow (self bow)
Sleight of hand (open lock simple)
Quick draw (knife)
Fast strike (speed of the weapon increase by 0.5 % per level but only 0.25% for 2 handed axes maces and pole arm)
 
Cunning I
Killing blow (damage *1.5 on surprised or incapacitated victims)
Stealth
Traps (simple)
Armour penetration (armour protection reduced by 0.5% per level for thrusting weapon, 0.25 for cutting weapon, 0.1 for masses and axes)
Critical strike +0.5% to the chance per level of striking critical.
Potion (simple)
 
Stamina I
Athlectics (stamina cost -5% for physical activities)
Endurance (+0.5% per level in stamina points)
Recuperation (recover stamina 10% faster
Conditioning (-2% of damage)
Armour (medium)
Buttoning (use armour as a shield -0.5% of damage per level)
 
Willpower I
Trained mind (stamina cost -5% for magical activities)
Endurance +0.5% per level in stamina points
Mana Recuperation (recover mana 10% faster)
Mental training (-2% of damage)
Focus (reduce incapciation time by 0.5 % per level)
 
Magic I
Staff fighting (simple staff)
Demon lore
Sprit lore
Staff bolt (x point of damage)
Staff damage type (energy)
Rune crafting (simple)
 
Phil

[PsychoBlonde]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This would require removing some truly worthless attributes (I'd say probably Magic and Cunning) and then having the remaining attributes in question apply to the player throughout the whole game.

Getting rid of Magic and Cunning would be nice.  They could throw the caster damage thing over to Will.  Granted, this would mean that damage AND mana would both be on Will, but caster damage was so crap in DA2 that I can't see how this would be a problem.  Besides, it'd make sense for casters to have a LARGE pool of mana.  Or, it would, if the cooldowns on their spells didn't take so long that they've regenerated the mana by the time the cooldown is over.  Endurance (or Constitution whatever it's called) would still be important for Blood mages--and regular mages who want to stay alive.

Throw crit *damage* onto Strength while Dexterity is your crit chance so now you have this disparity between warriors, who will incline toward lots of crit DAMAGE, vs. rogues who will incline toward lots of crits.

Or, they could just get rid of the "stats" and let you raise your damage, crit chance, crit damage, mana, health, armor, and defense directly.  I'd prefer this, personally, especially since I really detest diminishing returns systems like the one in DA2.  Then, if you want to play a mage with 100% crit, you CAN.  You'd probably SUCK, but you can do it.

The whole "rogues need cunning to open locks and disarm traps" thing is just annoying.  If there's *nothing* but junk loot in locked chests and you either can't come back to areas or there's no point in doing so, just let me open the damn box.  It's not like it's game-breaking for me to get an extra piece of pointless vendor trash.

Personally, I think Rogue and Warrior ought to be the same class, just different path choices.  They're having a terrible time distinguishing between them, anyway, and it's not like they put in different cool stuff based on whether you're a warrior or a rogue, because in story terms there's no difference.  It only matters whether you're a mage or not.

[Maclimes]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Personally, I think Rogue and Warrior ought to be the same class, just different path choices.  They're having a terrible time distinguishing between them, anyway, and it's not like they put in different cool stuff based on whether you're a warrior or a rogue, because in story terms there's no difference.  It only matters whether you're a mage or not.

I agree with this. Have two classes: Mage, Fighter. Depending on attribute, skill, and gear choices, that character is effectively a "Rogue" or "Warrior".

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

My only problem with this is mages. 

Make Magic an ability that can only be selected at level 1.  Problem solved.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

I liked my dex focused S&S warrior in origins. May not have been optimal, but whatever. Hardly anyone could hit me.

He probably did pretty good damage with daggers, as well.

The dagger&shield warrior was probably my favourite DAO warrior build.

[Provi-dance]

I like classes. I like distinction. If someone chooses the path of a rogue, that should come with its pros and cons, just like if someone cooses a mage to play.

[Maclimes]

Provi-dance wrote...

I like classes. I like distinction. If someone chooses the path of a rogue, that should come with its pros and cons, just like if someone cooses a mage to play.

I tend to agree. I think the actual answer is not to remove the classes, but to make them more distinct. As it is, especially in DAO, the Rogue and Warrior feel almost identical, except for a few skill choices.

In that aspect, DA2 was actually a step in right direction, in my opinion. I know not everyone agrees, but there it is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What I want is diversity within each class. I making the classes distinct removes that diversity, then I don't want distinctiveness.

There should be more than two ways to build a Warrior. A classless system lets us build any character however we want, and whether he's a warrior is determined not by some drop-down menu, but by how we use him.

I don't object to distinctiveness in and of itself, but I won't take it at the cost of diveristy within the class.

I'm also generally of the opinion that a pure Fighter class should be better at straight-up fighting than any other class is. Toe-to-toe, a fighter (or in the DA series, a warrior) should be able to do more damage and/or be more durable than any other class using the same mundame weapons. Daggers? Warrior should win. Bows? Warrior should win. 2-H sword? Warrior should win. What makes Rogues different is their other abilities - particularly their non-combat abilities. Stealth. Traps. Locks.