167 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

Provi-dance wrote...

Yep, a Bioware employee, I think it was Stanley... once said that [(they think) - added by me] people like big numbers. The accent is obviously on they think.

Sure, if you're 10 years old you love huge numbers in video games. At a young age people mostly tend to neglect the importance of relativity. Everything is an absolute and it's wooo..w!

I am with you on that one. That stuff drives me INSANE. When I see a game (or anything, really), where every single score (or health, or whatever) is in increments of 100, I lose it. WHY did I gain 2100 points there? Why not just say 21? Wouldn't that be much easier to read and understand?

[Provi-dance]

Maclimes wrote...


I am with you on that one. That stuff drives me INSANE. When I see a game (or anything, really), where every single score (or health, or whatever) is in increments of 100, I lose it. WHY did I gain 2100 points there? Why not just say 21? Wouldn't that be much easier to read and understand?

Of course.

But why follow common sense and start from the ground up when you can build card houses in space and stuff.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But it doesn't matter that people like big numbers. Once I heard that (and many BioWare employees have echoed it), I immediately proposed a system whereby they can still show giant numbers without unbalancing the game. Instead of having the enemies have more HP and the PC do more damage, have everyone do the same damage, but have the enemies take more damage. If they applied the multiplier on the damage recipient rather than the damage dealer, we should still see giant damage numbers while still letting friendly fire work.

They can offer that feature (giant numbers) without breaking the game. I don't understand why they broke the game.

[Provi-dance]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But it doesn't matter that people like big numbers. Once I heard that (and many BioWare employees have echoed it), I immediately proposed a system whereby they can still show giant numbers without unbalancing the game. Instead of having the enemies have more HP and the PC do more damage, have everyone do the same damage, but have the enemies take more damage. If they applied the multiplier on the damage recipient rather than the damage dealer, we should still see giant damage numbers while still letting friendly fire work.

They can offer that feature (giant numbers) without breaking the game. I don't understand why they broke the game.

We know that Sylvius, but it's still bad.

Are we really discussing here how to appeal to this special crowd that likes to see big numbers for some weird reason?

You don't fight banality by enforcing said banality in a different form.

Modifié par Provi-dance, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .

[Provi-dance]

...

Modifié par Provi-dance, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[Provi-dance]

Super posting streak.. remove this please.

Modifié par Provi-dance, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Provi-dance wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But it doesn't matter that people like big numbers. Once I heard that (and many BioWare employees have echoed it), I immediately proposed a system whereby they can still show giant numbers without unbalancing the game. Instead of having the enemies have more HP and the PC do more damage, have everyone do the same damage, but have the enemies take more damage. If they applied the multiplier on the damage recipient rather than the damage dealer, we should still see giant damage numbers while still letting friendly fire work.

They can offer that feature (giant numbers) without breaking the game. I don't understand why they broke the game.

We know that Sylvius, but it's still bad.

Are we really discussing here how to appeal to this special crowd that likes to see big numbers for some weird reason?

You don't fight banality by enforcing said banality in a different form.

If that crowd is a crowd BioWare thinks is important to target, then we should talk about how to appeal to them.  Otherwise people who don't care about consistency or coherence will make those decisions instead, and that's the sort of situation that produced DA2.

Ideally, yes, I'd prefer symmetrical mechanics.  But if there's some design objective (giant numbers) that precludes true symmetry, then I'd like something that is not materially different from symmetry, and that's what my proposed mechanic is.

[Provi-dance]

The design objective of giant numbers is so humorous I am laughing as I type.

Really, Bioware, really? Why not instead go full-re.. full-comedy and produce a comedy gold game with giant numbers, flying pigs and bandits and what have you..

[wowpwnslol]

Useless attributes have a place. Because it would be too resource prohibitive to design a system where every class had a unique attribute system. I don't think "dump" stats are so bad. Why would a rogue want to stack magic? or mage strength?

[nightscrawl]

Maclimes wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't see anything wrong with enemies being able to do stuff I can't.
In real life lots of people can do stuff i can't.
Why should games be any different.

 

HA! A valid point.

Only partly.

I can't perform at the level of an Olympic athlete, but I could if I trained hard enough. I have that capability, as does everyone. Every single person is born with the same amount of potential. Even if some have a better selection of genes than others, it still remains up to them.

That is not so with games, and specifically with DA2. An enemy mage may teleport some distance away, and that is something that Hawke will never, ever, be able to do. There is no secret quest for me to discover. There is no really expensive book that I must buy. There is no Uber Ring of Teleportation that I must steal from a dragon's hoard to be able to have that ability. In fact, so many enemy mages have this ability, surely Hawke and her mage friends must somehow be inferior in some way because they don't also have it.

Or it could just be that the devs wanted to give us overpowered players a little bit more of a challenge, owing to the already tremendous advantages we have over enemy NPCs.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 juillet 2012 - 07:41 .

[AkiKishi]

nightscrawl wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't see anything wrong with enemies being able to do stuff I can't.
In real life lots of people can do stuff i can't.
Why should games be any different.

 

HA! A valid point.

Only partly.

I can't perform at the level of an Olympic athlete, but I could if I trained hard enough. I have that capability, as does everyone. Every single person is born with the same amount of potential. Even if some have a better selection of genes than others, it still remains up to them.

That is not so with games, and specifically with DA2. An enemy mage may teleport some distance away, and that is something that Hawke will never, ever, be able to do. There is no secret quest for me to discover. There is no really expensive book that I must buy. There is no Uber Ring of Teleportation that I must steal from a dragon's hoard to be able to have that ability. In fact, so many enemy mages have this ability, surely Hawke and her mage friends must somehow be inferior in some way because they don't also have it.

Or it could just be that the devs wanted to give us overpowered players a little bit more of a challenge, owing to the already tremendous advantages we have over enemy NPCs.

It's partly to do with the ratio of enemy to characters and partly to do with how the system is constructed.

DA2 is designed around the CCC's use those and things will die very quickly. Don't and you will be in for a long haul.
This is true of most games with similiar design. FFXIII's damage gauge synergy and break status is very similiar. A million + hp's can be gone in minutes. If you don't know how to work the system, then it could take you half an hour or more.

Other systems are relatively fixed in nature. You might get a weapon that does more damage but you don't get the sort of bloat in numbers that you do in DA2. It's all relatively fixed.

It generally comes down to games where you have a "to hit" calculation, and games where you auto hit and the calculation is in the damage done.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 is designed around the CCC's use those and things will die very quickly. Don't and you will be in for a long haul.

I found DA2's combat moved far too quickly for me to set up CCCs.  I was also annoyed how they were always cross-class.  That felt contrived.  It bothered me partly because I missed the spell combos from DAO, and partly because it created a disincentive for different sorts of party construction.

[Cultist]

It does not matter even if you do the "right" build, you still have to grind your way through bosses. Other absurdity, like 2handed sword dealing the least amount of damage is just a indirect product of level scaling and attribute system.

[Cultist]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I found DA2's combat moved far too quickly for me to set up CCCs.  I was also annoyed how they were always cross-class.  That felt contrived.  It bothered me partly because I missed the spell combos from DAO, and partly because it created a disincentive for different sorts of party construction.

The funny thing is - almost never that combos were used as combat was a mess. Even that 400% or even 900% damage contributed awfully little to level-scaled enemies. And that is with correct build!

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I wouldn't complain if they would simply used SPECIAL from Fallout.

[MichaelStuart]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I wouldn't complain if they would simply used SPECIAL from Fallout.

If they must add attributes, I could live with something simple like SPECIAL.

[FaWa]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

wtf, this isn't Skyrim...

[MichaelStuart]

FaWa wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Get rid of classes and this will no longer be a problem.

wtf, this isn't Skyrim...

And does Skyrim have problems with useless attributes?

[Cultist]

Dragon Age can't rid of mages as in DA universe you can't learn magic, it's an ability you get trom birth, yet in Origins, the main differences between Rogues and Warriors were skills, yet they could use weapons and have similar builds, it's just rogues benefitted from Daggers more.
In DA2, you simply can't have even partially effective non-dual weapon rogue

[MichaelStuart]

As I have said before, Mages should be a race option.
classes exist only to limit gameplay.

[Yrkoon]

DuskWarden wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Like having 20,000 hit points.  How can enemies in DA2 have 20,000 hit points when Hawke has only 1% that many?

It was actually far worse than that in some cases.

http://www.imgplace....20110327182.jpg  Courtesy of IN1

Way over 200k hitpoints.

When a boss has over a thousand times your health (by the looks of that pic over three thousand times) you know there's a major problem with your player damage balancing.

ROFL!

That may be one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen.

Oh,  and BTW, It's even worse than that.    In DA2 You're not allowed to kill bosses with one hit., even if you do 217,594 points of damage to them with a spell.  Nope.  For "balance reasons"  (read: developer inability to properly balance combat) Bosses actually become UNKILLABLE until all their "phases" play out. So even if you manage to do 1,000,000,000 points of damage with your first hit, you'll still only bring a boss's HP bar down by about 20%.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[Cultist]

Phases is a common thing with bosses nowdays, but I doubt it should be possible to deal such severe damage to bosees to one-shot them.
Still, this absurd HP advantage turns game into a horrible grind.

[Terror_K]

Knowing current BioWare, they'll just end up cutting out player control entirely and just have these stats automatically boost according to your class.

Either that or just cut them completely.

[Cultist]

Terror_K wrote...

Knowing current BioWare, they'll just end up cutting out player control entirely and just have these stats automatically boost according to your class.

Either that or just cut them completely.

In other words, completeng the transformation of Dragon Age into jRPG.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Remove classes (excpet mage and non-mage). Everything else is down to atteribute/skill choice.

It's simple. It works. It's more believable.