12 réponses à ce sujet

[Orian Tabris]

This is just an idea for dialogue in DA3 that I thought up, whilst reading another thread. I know this is a lot to read, for an idea, probably not unlike other people's, in other threads. Sorry if the paragraphs are a bit messed up, ran out of time.

What if BioWare brings back the multiple options from Origins? They could still have the diplomatic, sarcastic and aggressive type options, but instead of limiting the player to 1 of 3 of these options, there could be more than 1 of each, but they wouldn't always have alternatives. Each option would clearly say what the VA's line will be (they're sticking with the voiced protagonist as far as I know).

Origin's dialogue was a lot easier, and allowed the player to be a lot more diverse in their personality choices. If a player doesn't care too much for roleplaying, they don't need to think too much in their choice, they'd just choose what they think would be the most interesting or useful outcome.

When it comes to the extra options, like lying or saying yes or no to a quest, they'd still be there, but they wouldn't detract from the personality choices unless the NPC, the PC is talking to, forces them to make an answer. You would be able to get round to saying yes or no, but you can take your time. The only instance I can think of where you don't have to say yes or no straight away in DA2, is when you're talking to Anders about his Act 3 quest. You can skip past the yes or no options like 4 or 5 times before he forces an answer on you.

You could still have an investigate option as well, to go back and forth between options so you wouldn't be stuck with the personality specific choices. Those investigative options may even, themselves, lead to other alternatives. Just like in Origins, perhaps just as often.

There could still be the obvious, this is sarcastic, this serious symbols for each option, telling the player the general effect/reaction they'll get from the NPC(s). I think it's too limiting to make the dialogue into a wheel shape, and to determine the maximum number of options based on the space around it. The options would work the same way as in both games. At the very least, if you made it so that the options' symbols weren't so large, you could fit more around it when the need for more arrives. Due to the number of words in each entire line, the symbols would need to be rather small, but they would have a set size no matter the amount of text and options. Maybe the size of the spells and talents, or slightly larger than the

With this general idea, players will have a good concept of what they will get out of their choices. Makes for less time spent on choosing options for players, though there is the possible extra time in coding and such forth for developers, but what's that rush? EA?

[Amycus89]

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

So remove the colour coded icons, and randomize the placement on the options on the dialogue wheel so that you can't just always pick the upper right option to get the "kind" response without reading a simple paraphrase. Sometimes have more than one response in the same category, for example 2 sarcastic and one diplomatic response, as opposed to having one of each every single time.

Also make sure that some of the responses lead to different consequences, instead of just having 3 different tones of saying the word "yes" to a quest...

[nightscrawl]

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

This became a huge problem for me, especially while trying to play a strictly sarcastic or aggressive Hawke. In some cases the sarcastic was inappropriate for the situation or the aggressiveness was too out of control or angry for no reason. In some instances I eventually ended up bleeding over into another personality and having to offset it by picking several purple/red options in a row.

To the OP's point about the number of options: there was space around the wheel for eight options, which seems a goodly amount to me. I know this from some of the investigation sessions, particularly with the Arishok, where there would be four options on the left, an additional two on the right side, and space enough for two more.

[LeBurns]

I image the biggest limitation to having more options in a game like DA2 is the more voice files for every response and the voice files for the responses to the response, and etc. and etc. Every choice added also adds a lot of complexity to the programming and files needed.

Sure in a perfect world give me 8 choices for everything with unique NPC responses to each one and then eight more responses for me for each of the NPC responses, etc. Course the reverse of this was seen clearly in ME3 with the so called auto responses where you basically had no choices.

[Maclimes]

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

So remove the colour coded icons, and randomize the placement on the options on the dialogue wheel so that you can't just always pick the upper right option to get the "kind" response without reading a simple paraphrase. Sometimes have more than one response in the same category, for example 2 sarcastic and one diplomatic response, as opposed to having one of each every single time.

Also make sure that some of the responses lead to different consequences, instead of just having 3 different tones of saying the word "yes" to a quest...

I partially disagree. Too often in Origins, I would pick a line, but becuase I didn't understand the tone of the line, the dialogue was different from what I expected. In another thread, someone used the "I love shoes!" line when speaking to Leliana as a great example. I thought I was being sarcastic/funny, but it was taken in total sincerity, leading me to believe that it was in fact a serious statement. The icons are great, because they let us understand the tone of the dialogue.

However, I'm opposed to the whole "Three colors, all the time" mode of DA2. As you say, it tends to cause a sort of "autopick" method of dialogue choices. Might was well just say "Nice, Funny, or Mean?" at character creation, and let the computer pick my responses automatically. I'd prefer to see more variety in the responses, while still indicating what the tone is.

Assume someone asks you to help find their lost son, who is an apostate mage. (Think Feynriel from Act I of DA2). You could have the following options:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars.
2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle.
3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine.
4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done.
5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice!
6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware!
7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment.
8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp.

Basically, give me a list of options like in DA:O, but clearly indicate the tone of every line before I speak it. (Also, I want to be able to say "No" to a quest without being a jerk).

Also, this SEEMS like more dialogue options to record voice acting for, but rememeber that in the Feynriel quest in DA2, you have several layers of dialogue, first you react (Nice/Funny/Mean), then they talk and you react again (Nice/Funny/Mean) then you decide to accept quest (Yes/No). It's the same number of lines recorded, just with more options present at once. (Also would lead to shorter conversations).

Modifié par Maclimes, 12 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .

[brushyourteeth]

nightscrawl wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

This became a huge problem for me, especially while trying to play a strictly sarcastic or aggressive Hawke. In some cases the sarcastic was inappropriate for the situation or the aggressiveness was too out of control or angry for no reason. In some instances I eventually ended up bleeding over into another personality and having to offset it by picking several purple/red options in a row.

Agree. I'd really be fine with having the flirt icon be the only one clearly marked. Or if they just made flirt choices very obviously flirtatious so that no icon is needed.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 12 juillet 2012 - 03:08 .

[FenrirBlackDragon]

Maclimes wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

So remove the colour coded icons, and randomize the placement on the options on the dialogue wheel so that you can't just always pick the upper right option to get the "kind" response without reading a simple paraphrase. Sometimes have more than one response in the same category, for example 2 sarcastic and one diplomatic response, as opposed to having one of each every single time.

Also make sure that some of the responses lead to different consequences, instead of just having 3 different tones of saying the word "yes" to a quest...

I partially disagree. Too often in Origins, I would pick a line, but becuase I didn't understand the tone of the line, the dialogue was different from what I expected. In another thread, someone used the "I love shoes!" line when speaking to Leliana as a great example. I thought I was being sarcastic/funny, but it was taken in total sincerity, leading me to believe that it was in fact a serious statement. The icons are great, because they let us understand the tone of the dialogue.

However, I'm opposed to the whole "Three colors, all the time" mode of DA2. As you say, it tends to cause a sort of "autopick" method of dialogue choices. Might was well just say "Nice, Funny, or Mean?" at character creation, and let the computer pick my responses automatically. I'd prefer to see more variety in the responses, while still indicating what the tone is.

Assume someone asks you to help find their lost son, who is an apostate mage. (Think Feynriel from Act I of DA2). You could have the following options:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars.
2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle.
3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine.
4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done.
5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice!
6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware!
7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment.
8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp.

Basically, give me a list of options like in DA:O, but clearly indicate the tone of every line before I speak it. (Also, I want to be able to say "No" to a quest without being a jerk).

Also, this SEEMS like more dialogue options to record voice acting for, but rememeber that in the Feynriel quest in DA2, you have several layers of dialogue, first you react (Nice/Funny/Mean), then they talk and you react again (Nice/Funny/Mean) then you decide to accept quest (Yes/No). It's the same number of lines recorded, just with more options present at once. (Also would lead to shorter conversations).

I think this idea would be very interesting. Although, I would want all conversations to be short, though. I would like the tone of certain dialogue options to be marked, since we are having a voiced protagonist. (For DA:O I just make it up as I go to fit my Warden protagonist, even if the game does tend to react the same regardless of how I say it.)

I think it's especially helpful to have the flirt dialogue clearly marked, so you can more easily avoid unwanted romantic attention. Though, it can still be problematic with characters like Anders who hit on you on their own, but it would be better if not all your options were "flirt, flirt, or end romance". Sort of like when you talk to Fenris initially, you have a flirt and end romance option, but there's also a neutral path you can take as well. I'd really like the ability to say to a character"I'm truly flattered, but I'm not interested." Or something to that effect.

[brushyourteeth]

Maclimes wrote...

Too often in Origins, I would pick a line, but becuase I didn't understand the tone of the line, the dialogue was different from what I expected. In another thread, someone used the "I love shoes!" line when speaking to Leliana as a great example. I thought I was being sarcastic/funny, but it was taken in total sincerity, leading me to believe that it was in fact a serious statement. The icons are great, because they let us understand the tone of the dialogue.

I totally see what you mean -  but wanted to point out that just because Leliana took that line seriously doesn't necessarily mean your character couldn't have been sarcastic. It is Leliana, after all.

[Amycus89]

Maclimes wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

So remove the colour coded icons, and randomize the placement on the options on the dialogue wheel so that you can't just always pick the upper right option to get the "kind" response without reading a simple paraphrase. Sometimes have more than one response in the same category, for example 2 sarcastic and one diplomatic response, as opposed to having one of each every single time.

Also make sure that some of the responses lead to different consequences, instead of just having 3 different tones of saying the word "yes" to a quest...

I partially disagree. Too often in Origins, I would pick a line, but becuase I didn't understand the tone of the line, the dialogue was different from what I expected. In another thread, someone used the "I love shoes!" line when speaking to Leliana as a great example. I thought I was being sarcastic/funny, but it was taken in total sincerity, leading me to believe that it was in fact a serious statement. The icons are great, because they let us understand the tone of the dialogue.

However, I'm opposed to the whole "Three colors, all the time" mode of DA2. As you say, it tends to cause a sort of "autopick" method of dialogue choices. Might was well just say "Nice, Funny, or Mean?" at character creation, and let the computer pick my responses automatically. I'd prefer to see more variety in the responses, while still indicating what the tone is.

Assume someone asks you to help find their lost son, who is an apostate mage. (Think Feynriel from Act I of DA2). You could have the following options:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars.
2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle.
3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine.
4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done.
5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice!
6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware!
7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment.
8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp.

Basically, give me a list of options like in DA:O, but clearly indicate the tone of every line before I speak it. (Also, I want to be able to say "No" to a quest without being a jerk).

Also, this SEEMS like more dialogue options to record voice acting for, but rememeber that in the Feynriel quest in DA2, you have several layers of dialogue, first you react (Nice/Funny/Mean), then they talk and you react again (Nice/Funny/Mean) then you decide to accept quest (Yes/No). It's the same number of lines recorded, just with more options present at once. (Also would lead to shorter conversations).

I'm fine with that, as long as it isn't too obvious where "your personality points" go to. In your case above it would only be option #3 that I would like to rename/reword somehow so that it isn't too obvious and allows one to autoselect in seconds before rading all the options available.

So for example, give proper, made up names to the personalities, similar to renegade and paragon (though we have about 3 to wrestle with, instead of 2). One being open minded, kind, but a bit naive (personality A). The other sarcastic, flirty, a good liar, and a besserwisser (personality . The third one manipulative (like saying to Anders that you like him better, and then going to Fenris saying the same thing, 2-timing them), blackmailing, and thinks that the end justifies the means (personality C).

So for example, if we would enter a certain house house in the denerim to find out that a person has gone missing looking for the sacred ashes and asks us to look for him in an inn far away, trusting this person and go to said inn would make you more trusting and guliable (personality A), while investigating and finding out that the person in front of you have killed a person he is now impersonating, will make you more cunning in personality (personality C). Finally, you might be able to ****** of the person or trick him into revealing the truth by talking to him, moving you closer to personality B.

And in your example I would give something like this:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars. - 3p towards personality A

2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle. -2p towards personality A and 1p to Personality C

3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine. -3 p towards personality B

4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done. -1p personality A, 2p towards personality C

5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice! -1p towards personality B, 2p towards personality C

6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware! 
-1p towards personality B, 2p towards personality C 

7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment. 
-2p personality A, 1p towards personality C 

8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp. -3p towards personality C.

Of course, all these calculations should be done hidden in the backround. This is also just an example to explain my train of thought, I just spent a few seconds to distribute points on each, so there will likely be many of you that don't agree my distribution of points, but hopefully you will at least like the idea itself.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Maclimes wrote...
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars.
2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle.
3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine.
4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done.
5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice!
6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware!
7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment.
8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp.

Also, this SEEMS like more dialogue options to record voice acting for, but rememeber that in the Feynriel quest in DA2, you have several layers of dialogue, first you react (Nice/Funny/Mean), then they talk and you react again (Nice/Funny/Mean) then you decide to accept quest (Yes/No). It's the same number of lines recorded, just with more options present at once. (Also would lead to shorter conversations).

In an ideal world, this would be my, well, ideal dialogue system. But we all know they can't possibly accommodate that much voiced dialogue. I think a good co,promise would be to have three different tones to choose from depending on the context. For example, you wouldn't have a sarcastic tone option after your mother just died, instead youd have varying tones that generally play into a generally sad character.

[Orian Tabris]

FenrirBlackDragon wrote...

Although, I would want all conversations to be short, though. I would like the tone of certain dialogue options to be marked, since we are having a voiced protagonist. (For DA:O I just make it up as I go to fit my Warden protagonist, even if the game does tend to react the same regardless of how I say it.)

I think it's especially helpful to have the flirt dialogue clearly marked, so you can more easily avoid unwanted romantic attention. Though, it can still be problematic with characters like Anders who hit on you on their own, but it would be better if not all your options were "flirt, flirt, or end romance". Sort of like when you talk to Fenris initially, you have a flirt and end romance option, but there's also a neutral path you can take as well. I'd really like the ability to say to a character"I'm truly flattered, but I'm not interested." Or something to that effect.

I agree with a lot of this. While some conversaions are better short, some need to be long, or at least have the capability of being long - not to mention drawn out. It really depends on the conversation, and what the current situation/s being adressed is/are. Certain tones of dialogue options do need to be marked, so that we don't assume the wrong thing. As you said, a player could easily just decide on what the tone is, to fit their Warden. I did that all the time, including how I think the conversation-less voice, specifically, would say it, depending on their attitude and the actual voice itself.

As for the flirt options, they should definitely be marked, no matter how BioWare handle the dialogue. Just so we know if we're flirting, or merely kidding. It should always be possible to shut down a companion's advances or to backtrack on what the character has said, in case they make a fool of themselves. The fact that turning someone down, meant you'd lose all chance for romantic reconciliation, really got up people's goats - mine too.

The inability to romance someone, should be based on gender, and just how the PC shuts them down, not just by saying something that the companion wouldn't want to hear. People can say just about anything that could easily put another person back on the romantic track. Like a flattering "Aw, you know I'm only joking". I don't want a neutral path, just an alternative to being straight up serious.

[Orian Tabris]

Amycus89 wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

In my opinion the icons was the main problem with the dialogue wheel, since you automatically starts to choose options from the personality you want your character to have in the future, instead of how you character should actually act in the current situation.

So remove the colour coded icons, and randomize the placement on the options on the dialogue wheel so that you can't just always pick the upper right option to get the "kind" response without reading a simple paraphrase. Sometimes have more than one response in the same category, for example 2 sarcastic and one diplomatic response, as opposed to having one of each every single time.

Also make sure that some of the responses lead to different consequences, instead of just having 3 different tones of saying the word "yes" to a quest...

I partially disagree. Too often in Origins, I would pick a line, but becuase I didn't understand the tone of the line, the dialogue was different from what I expected. In another thread, someone used the "I love shoes!" line when speaking to Leliana as a great example. I thought I was being sarcastic/funny, but it was taken in total sincerity, leading me to believe that it was in fact a serious statement. The icons are great, because they let us understand the tone of the dialogue.

However, I'm opposed to the whole "Three colors, all the time" mode of DA2. As you say, it tends to cause a sort of "autopick" method of dialogue choices. Might was well just say "Nice, Funny, or Mean?" at character creation, and let the computer pick my responses automatically. I'd prefer to see more variety in the responses, while still indicating what the tone is.

Assume someone asks you to help find their lost son, who is an apostate mage. (Think Feynriel from Act I of DA2). You could have the following options:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars.
2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle.
3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine.
4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done.
5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice!
6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware!
7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment.
8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp.

Basically, give me a list of options like in DA:O, but clearly indicate the tone of every line before I speak it. (Also, I want to be able to say "No" to a quest without being a jerk).

Also, this SEEMS like more dialogue options to record voice acting for, but rememeber that in the Feynriel quest in DA2, you have several layers of dialogue, first you react (Nice/Funny/Mean), then they talk and you react again (Nice/Funny/Mean) then you decide to accept quest (Yes/No). It's the same number of lines recorded, just with more options present at once. (Also would lead to shorter conversations).

I'm fine with that, as long as it isn't too obvious where "your personality points" go to. In your case above it would only be option #3 that I would like to rename/reword somehow so that it isn't too obvious and allows one to autoselect in seconds before rading all the options available.

So for example, give proper, made up names to the personalities, similar to renegade and paragon (though we have about 3 to wrestle with, instead of 2). One being open minded, kind, but a bit naive (personality A). The other sarcastic, flirty, a good liar, and a besserwisser (personality . The third one manipulative (like saying to Anders that you like him better, and then going to Fenris saying the same thing, 2-timing them), blackmailing, and thinks that the end justifies the means (personality C).

So for example, if we would enter a certain house house in the denerim to find out that a person has gone missing looking for the sacred ashes and asks us to look for him in an inn far away, trusting this person and go to said inn would make you more trusting and guliable (personality A), while investigating and finding out that the person in front of you have killed a person he is now impersonating, will make you more cunning in personality (personality C). Finally, you might be able to ****** of the person or trick him into revealing the truth by talking to him, moving you closer to personality B.

And in your example I would give something like this:
1 - [Compassionate] - I'll help your son hide from the Templars. - 3p towards personality A

2 - [Wise] - I'll find your son, and make sure he safely returns to the Circle. -2p towards personality A and 1p to Personality C

3 - [Sarcastic] - Geez, rescuing another lost mage? Fine. -3 p towards personality B

4 - [Careful] - I will find and speak to your son, and determine what must be done. -1p personality A, 2p towards personality C

5 - [Spiteful] - Your son will be found, and brought to justice! -1p towards personality B, 2p towards personality C

6 - [Aggressive] - I will rescue the boy, and any Templars in the way beware! 
-1p towards personality B, 2p towards personality C 

7 - [Apologetic] - I'm sorry I cannot help, but the war occupies my time at the moment. 
-2p personality A, 1p towards personality C 

8 - [Dismissive] - I have better things to do than hunt down your lost whelp. -3p towards personality C.

Of course, all these calculations should be done hidden in the backround. This is also just an example to explain my train of thought, I just spent a few seconds to distribute points on each, so there will likely be many of you that don't agree my distribution of points, but hopefully you will at least like the idea itself.

It is a great idea, but then there's that age old problem again: too much information to code. That besides, I think maybe it'd be better to leave point allocation alone, just to keep conversation simple. Unless you mean it should be more (key word here, I'm looking at you BioWare) responsive to what the PC says, as it did Origins, assuming BioWare didn't already do that in DA:O  (chances are they didn't).

[Chiramu]

It's good to have multiple options, but there were times in Origins where there were multiple choices that all lead to the same direction as well, which isn't as cool :<.