276 réponses à ce sujet

[SapientesGladio]

I don't have it.
So I won't complain.
I'll eventually get it..
But still use the carnifex, like I've been doing since I started playing mp lol

[himegoto]

LandoCalrisian wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


Settle pettle. He is merely raising a point that, if not raised, goes unfixed. And, unlike the other 90% of the community, actually backs it with evidence and numbers.

Despite what most people around BSN seems to think, all of the balance changes in Multiplayer happen as a result  Bioware checking actual gameplay stats. For the guns, they look at how many people use them, player life expectancy while using them and average damage dealt/score achieved per match while using them.

Having 5000 forum whiners saying sniper rifles and assault rifles are underpowered won't lead to a buff.

After a couple weeks, if the average Particle Rifle soldier is scoring considerably less than the average phaeston soldier, it will be buffed, no matter how many people complain...

Didnt know that.
If thats the case though, why are all the sub-par guns remain mostly unchanged?

I still only see the Reegar, claymore, krysae, hurricane, paladin, talon, harriar. in 90% of the matches.

[Pete Zahut]

himegoto wrote...

LandoCalrisian wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


Settle pettle. He is merely raising a point that, if not raised, goes unfixed. And, unlike the other 90% of the community, actually backs it with evidence and numbers.

Despite what most people around BSN seems to think, all of the balance changes in Multiplayer happen as a result  Bioware checking actual gameplay stats. For the guns, they look at how many people use them, player life expectancy while using them and average damage dealt/score achieved per match while using them.

Having 5000 forum whiners saying sniper rifles and assault rifles are underpowered won't lead to a buff.

After a couple weeks, if the average Particle Rifle soldier is scoring considerably less than the average phaeston soldier, it will be buffed, no matter how many people complain...

Didnt know that.
If thats the case though, why are all the sub-par guns remain mostly unchanged?

I still only see the Reegar, claymore, krysae, hurricane, paladin, talon, harriar. in 90% of the matches.

Ya I agree with himegoto. If they buffed/nerfed every gun based of gameplay stats then every gun would have a similar dps

[Computron2000]

MajorBlazkowicz wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

MajorBlazkowicz wrote...

I like how all the people who hate it think it should do instant major damage and be gold solo viable.

If you can name a single person who said that in this thread, I'll eat my hat. And it's not a small hat.

It's a co-op game people! this gun works better with a team, just like the Turian Soldier, which is my favorite character, needs team mates to raze hell!

A shield-restore spec Geth Engineer needs teammates; what the average Turian Soldier needs is targets.

What I'm trying to get at with the second sentence is that the Turian Soldier is not very good at solo runs becuase he has no roll and is a big easy target, he needs distractions to do good. The Turian Sentinal is a better solo choice because of tech armor with overload and warp.

I also read at least 2 or 3 people who said try to solo Gold with it, but I'm not naming names, becuase that violates BSN rules.

Then feel free to quote their posts (like mine). You don't because you would then have to answer the post in the context it was written in. Yes. Context.

Surprise, surprise. Those posts are telling people to solo gold to understand why being out of cover for 3 seconds before you even get harrier damage is going to get you killed. How long do you want to be out of cover? 5 seconds? 3 seconds of lousy damage before you have 2 seconds of harrier damage? 8 seconds for 3 seconds of lousy damage and 5 seconds of harrier damage?

The funniest thing is that i have already anticipated your entire "its a team" argument and my post has already pointed out the fail points of such an argument. Same for the sidearm.

Using the "its a team" argument further, the shuriken is a great weapon in a team when you have someone decoying the enemy (like a glitching vanguard) and you shoot them in the back with no consequences. So the shuriken is great for gold.

[MajorBlazkowicz]

Computron2000 wrote...

MajorBlazkowicz wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

MajorBlazkowicz wrote...

I like how all the people who hate it think it should do instant major damage and be gold solo viable.

If you can name a single person who said that in this thread, I'll eat my hat. And it's not a small hat.

It's a co-op game people! this gun works better with a team, just like the Turian Soldier, which is my favorite character, needs team mates to raze hell!

A shield-restore spec Geth Engineer needs teammates; what the average Turian Soldier needs is targets.

What I'm trying to get at with the second sentence is that the Turian Soldier is not very good at solo runs becuase he has no roll and is a big easy target, he needs distractions to do good. The Turian Sentinal is a better solo choice because of tech armor with overload and warp.

I also read at least 2 or 3 people who said try to solo Gold with it, but I'm not naming names, becuase that violates BSN rules.

Then feel free to quote their posts (like mine). You don't because you would then have to answer the post in the context it was written in. Yes. Context.

Surprise, surprise. Those posts are telling people to solo gold to understand why being out of cover for 3 seconds before you even get harrier damage is going to get you killed. How long do you want to be out of cover? 5 seconds? 3 seconds of lousy damage before you have 2 seconds of harrier damage? 8 seconds for 3 seconds of lousy damage and 5 seconds of harrier damage?

The funniest thing is that i have already anticipated your entire "its a team" argument and my post has already pointed out the fail points of such an argument. Same for the sidearm.

Using the "its a team" argument further, the shuriken is a great weapon in a team when you have someone decoying the enemy (like a glitching vanguard) and you shoot them in the back with no consequences. So the shuriken is great for gold.

First off for cover there is a way to stand next to full body cover, but not be in it. The Harrier is beast, but with boss enemies you have to full auto the gun which requires you to stick your head out of cover do to massive damage.

The Shuriken can be used effectively in certian builds on any difficulty, hell even the CAR and Eagle can be used effectively! People are just mad that it's a UR and Hard to get and that It should be overpowered becuase of rarity.

People send the same thing with Half of the UR's in the game like the Wraith or the Saber. Just play the game and be happy the keep adding free stuff.

[LandoCalrisian]

Pete Zahut wrote...

himegoto wrote...

LandoCalrisian wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


Settle pettle. He is merely raising a point that, if not raised, goes unfixed. And, unlike the other 90% of the community, actually backs it with evidence and numbers.

Despite what most people around BSN seems to think, all of the balance changes in Multiplayer happen as a result  Bioware checking actual gameplay stats. For the guns, they look at how many people use them, player life expectancy while using them and average damage dealt/score achieved per match while using them.

Having 5000 forum whiners saying sniper rifles and assault rifles are underpowered won't lead to a buff.

After a couple weeks, if the average Particle Rifle soldier is scoring considerably less than the average phaeston soldier, it will be buffed, no matter how many people complain...

Didnt know that.
If thats the case though, why are all the sub-par guns remain mostly unchanged?

I still only see the Reegar, claymore, krysae, hurricane, paladin, talon, harriar. in 90% of the matches.

Ya I agree with himegoto. If they buffed/nerfed every gun based of gameplay stats then every gun would have a similar dps

The dps you see on Tangsters page and that other people quote never includes things like reload time, how many shots actually hit the enemy, etc. Paladin, for example, technically has higher DPS per clip than Carniflex, but if you're just pointing both guns at an Atlas and pound away at the fire button, it'll die faster with Carniflex becuase you'll be reloading half as much.

Besides that, there are other things besides DPS that come into play - accuracy, range, reload speed, shots per clip, that contribute to whether or not a weapon has the potential to keep its user scoring/killing/not dying.

The reason 
Reegar, claymore, krysae, hurricane, paladin, talon, harriar (i'd add carniflex, valiant, black widow and widow to that list) are all used so often is that they are great weapons that fit certain popular builds/playstyles best.

Players that play using methods outside that 90% can use other weapons to great success, and those weapons, while not being used nearly as frequently, still on a per use rate score just as high and keep their owners alive just as long.

For every top scoring Reegar user, there are 3 that are running into the middle of a spawn and dying. 90% of players using that gun doesn't mean 90% of players using it successfully.

I've seen lots of players top scoreboards using wraiths, eviscerators and graals, and on a "per use/per sighting" basis i'd say they're just as successful as Claymore users. I've also seen "hated" weapons like the Arc Pistol and Disciple used to great effect both in the score standings and also the "never needs to be revived" category when playing.

As a personal example, I find the way I spec my Batarian soldier makes using the Scimitar a LOT more effective than the Claymore (and allows me to consistently finish 1st or 2nd in scoring), although pretty much every other class I would pick the Claymore or GPS instead. Therefore, 90% of the time I'm using Claymore or GPS, but the 10% of the time when I play the Batarian, i'm performing just as well or better.

When they balance the weapons, I think they're worried mostly on a per use basis, so if 90% of people start using avengers, that won't necessarily mean a nerf to the avenger.

Lots of folks are using the Krysae right now, but I find a majority of them are terrible players who sit alone in a corner, score really high until a couple squadmates go down or enemies spawn behind them, and then get taken down rapidly due to lack of skill. I can't imagine the average Krysae user does better than the average Phaeston or Arc Pistol user...

This has so far been reflected in the Buffs/Nerfs, which haven't followed usage rate at all (consider the carniflex, claymore and valiant, which are by far the 3 most popular weapons and haven't been proportionately nerfed as a result)

The only exceptions I can think of, where i've never seen a weapon used effectively is the Incisor and the Stryker.

Character class usage rates, however, seem to be taken into account when they buff/nerf classes, since comparing a support class like an engineer to a soldier or adept is more difficult. Of course the average Human Vanguard is going to die more than an Infiltrator, and an Asari Adept will always outscore a QFE. That's where they've looked at usage rates of Infiltrators, Geth and Quarian Females and nerfed/buffed them to try to get more diversity in character selection. I think a bioware employee actually mentioned somewhere around here that they Nerfed the geth specifically to get more diversity in character selection.

[Super Nothing]

MajorBlazkowicz wrote...

First off for cover there is a way to stand next to full body cover, but not be in it. The Harrier is beast, but with boss enemies you have to full auto the gun which requires you to stick your head out of cover do to massive damage.

The Shuriken can be used effectively in certian builds on any difficulty, hell even the CAR and Eagle can be used effectively! People are just mad that it's a UR and Hard to get and that It should be overpowered becuase of rarity.

People send the same thing with Half of the UR's in the game like the Wraith or the Saber. Just play the game and be happy the keep adding free stuff.

The Harrier doesn't have to be fired continuously in order to activate a "super damage mode."  You can fire your weapon, use powers, or take cover and it will still do the same amount of damage per shot every time you shoot it.  The consistency, ease of use, and the fact that it works better in more situations makes it a MUCH better option.  Now if only I could actually unlock the Harrier. 

[Xaijin]

Pete Zahut wrote...

himegoto wrote...

LandoCalrisian wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


Settle pettle. He is merely raising a point that, if not raised, goes unfixed. And, unlike the other 90% of the community, actually backs it with evidence and numbers.

Despite what most people around BSN seems to think, all of the balance changes in Multiplayer happen as a result  Bioware checking actual gameplay stats. For the guns, they look at how many people use them, player life expectancy while using them and average damage dealt/score achieved per match while using them.

Having 5000 forum whiners saying sniper rifles and assault rifles are underpowered won't lead to a buff.

After a couple weeks, if the average Particle Rifle soldier is scoring considerably less than the average phaeston soldier, it will be buffed, no matter how many people complain...

Didnt know that.
If thats the case though, why are all the sub-par guns remain mostly unchanged?

I still only see the Reegar, claymore, krysae, hurricane, paladin, talon, harriar. in 90% of the matches.

Ya I agree with himegoto. If they buffed/nerfed every gun based of gameplay stats then every gun would have a similar dps

That not even the issue or germane. The issue is the PPR is the

best.

rifle.

in.

the.

game.

As well as being one of the best WEAPONS, period.

It need about three times the damage it does now to equal what it does in SP.... which it should.

Modifié par Xaijin, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[fishcurry]

don't actually have it yet, but in theory, if they let's say, gave it 100% armor bypass and innate piercing like the javelin, wouldn't that make it better? or at least the the armor bypass.

[Sun Tzglyph]

I loled at your title. Loudly.

[II D1SM3MB3R II]

When I use the ppr, I use the piercing mod with extended mag, and I regularly pull 1st place by lining multiple enemies up

[KyreneZA]

I don't know why everyone continues to propagate the error of the charge time. It says right there in the modified OP: timetoheatup [2.f]. That's 2 seconds (or a little over 26 rounds) to charge up to the full 4x multiplier.

Now, I know that by asking for facts and not opinions/anecdotal evidence I'm perhaps spitting into a tsunami, but... Despite everyone's abject hysteria about the gun in this thread, does anyone have the hard figure for the reload time when/if you do indeed run out of a clip? Is this more or less than the 2.85 seconds it takes to recharge naturally?

[rmccowen]

Kyrene wrote...

I don't know why everyone continues to propagate the error of the charge time. It says right there in the modified OP: timetoheatup [2.f]. That's 2 seconds (or a little over 26 rounds) to charge up to the full 4x multiplier.

It's entirely possible that it is 2 seconds--it's "two mississippi" in-game, and 3.75s feels too long. But it's also definitely and very consistently 50 rounds, which means the ROF listed on the front page is either wrong or incomplete.

Now, I know that by asking for facts and not opinions/anecdotal evidence I'm perhaps spitting into a tsunami, but... Despite everyone's abject hysteria about the gun in this thread, does anyone have the hard figure for the reload time when/if you do indeed run out of a clip? Is this more or less than the 2.85 seconds it takes to recharge naturally?

No, for the same reason I haven't yet empirically measured the charge time--no access to a video feed from my XBox.

I can definitely say that you have to let the "eject" animation complete if you empty the clip. If you interrupt the animation (or are interrupted), you'll have to start firing or reload to start the animation again, or the weapon will simply sit empty.

Modifié par rmccowen, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:18 .

[Steppdaddy2]

Not a fan of the gun, but it very easy to push your gun through a corner in such a way nothing can hit you from straight on while allowing non stop fire

[KyreneZA]

rmccowen wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

I don't know why everyone continues to propagate the error of the charge time. It says right there in the modified OP: timetoheatup [2.f]. That's 2 seconds (or a little over 26 rounds) to charge up to the full 4x multiplier.

It's entirely possible that it is 2 seconds--it's "two mississippi" in-game, and 3.75s feels too long. But it's also definitely and very consistently 50 rounds, which means the ROF listed on the front page is either wrong or incomplete.

Wow! Weird then! Normally the coalesc data at least means what it says.

No, for the same reason I haven't yet empirically measured the charge time--no access to a video feed from my XBox.

I can definitely say that you have to let the "eject" animation complete if you empty the clip. If you interrupt the animation (or are interrupted), you'll have to start firing or reload to start the animation again, or the weapon will simply sit empty.

Ah, for shame. One of the saner posters in this thread can't access the game files. I can't either (don't have the Prothean DLC), so we wait until someone either tests or digs and until then the hysteria continues.

So if the clip is empty it doesn't recharge, and you have to reload?

[Lambda_00]

Shockingly effective on gold difficulty when using:
N7 Soldier (Both Mag Cap upgrades, damage boosts, fitness shield boosts, grenade launcher, no rockets)
Particle Rifle II
Extended Clip V
AP Mod V
AP / Incendiary Rounds II
(Not sure if barrage package applies, but I used a barrage package II when testing this )
Mag Cap: 280
VERY Useful vs Reapers, good enough against Cerberus. NOT tested with Geth, doubt it would be pretty.
The major trick is knowing when to shut off the beam/effective use of cover (hint, corners/doorways make this much better)
It quite literally burns through armor.
Admittedly, it's Also useful with the N7 Engineer: Considering that the armor removal grenade has enough time for you to fully charge the Particle Rifle and fire off most of a clip into heavy armored targets, it makes bringing down banshees on gold extremely fast (note, I use AP ammo II + AP mod V usually)

[TMB903]

This gun is a beast and it's a shame that's it's not a beginners weapon like the Krysae...oh wait no it's not a shame and sorry that there are players who just aren't good enough to use this gun

[HinDae]

I have it, its not so bad, keep in mind they need to balance its infinite ammo and perfect accuracy.

I bet Turian Soldier specced for Fire rate can make it shine.

[rmccowen]

Kyrene wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

I don't know why everyone continues to propagate the error of the charge time. It says right there in the modified OP: timetoheatup [2.f]. That's 2 seconds (or a little over 26 rounds) to charge up to the full 4x multiplier.

It's entirely possible that it is 2 seconds--it's "two mississippi" in-game, and 3.75s feels too long. But it's also definitely and very consistently 50 rounds, which means the ROF listed on the front page is either wrong or incomplete.

Wow! Weird then! Normally the coalesc data at least means what it says.

Well, there are a couple of other places where it's "wrong" (going off Tangster's spreadsheet). For the Geth SMG, the ROF is listed as 800, but of course it gets faster as you continue firing. The Reegar has an entry for rounds in each burst, despite the fact that it's fully automatic. The Mattock would have some of the best available DPS in the game, if a human could actually pull the trigger at 7.5Hz.

Ah, for shame. One of the saner posters in this thread can't access the game files. I can't either (don't have the Prothean DLC), so we wait until someone either tests or digs and until then the hysteria continues.

So if the clip is empty it doesn't recharge, and you have to reload?

I think this is how it works, based on five complete Bronze and Silver games with it, as well as some solo Bronze testing.

If you empty the clip, you get the "eject" animation. Normally, that animation (however long) completes, and the gun begins charging from zero on its own. But if you roll, sprint, cast a power, are staggered, etc. during the animation, the gun won't charge at all. Then, the next time you try to fire (or when you hit the reload button), the animation will begin again; once the animation completes, the gun starts charging.

The Adrenaline Rush power doesn't automatically reload the gun the way it does with regular weapons, but it does start the charging process immediately. It's not much of an advantage under normal use, because the recharge delay is fairly short, but when you run the battery dry you can skip the whole animation.

***

It's probably worth noting that my opinion on the gun is slowly evolving. I think a huge part of the problem is actually expectation: it doesn't perform the way it does in SP, and it requires you to accomodate the charge time (during which the gun is virtually useless, particularly against armor). It also virtually requires that you equip both the Extended Magazine and AP mods, which is a drawback if you have other mods you would like to use. But if you can accomodate those handicaps, it works very much like a Harrier at the same level--a Harrier with a very long magazine and no need to visit an ammo box.

Whether or not it's worth using depends on how much of a tactical problem the charge to "hot" mode is for the particular player--regardless of the exact amount of time it turns out to take--and how much of an issue that player has with resupplying ammo.

(The effect people are reporting with ammo equipment has very little to do with the particular weapon, but a function of high-ROF--you really do get the same
level of effect with a Phaeston, GPR, or Geth SMG, let alone the Reegar.)

Modifié par rmccowen, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[MajorBlazkowicz]

Kyrene wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

I don't know why everyone continues to propagate the error of the charge time. It says right there in the modified OP: timetoheatup [2.f]. That's 2 seconds (or a little over 26 rounds) to charge up to the full 4x multiplier.

It's entirely possible that it is 2 seconds--it's "two mississippi" in-game, and 3.75s feels too long. But it's also definitely and very consistently 50 rounds, which means the ROF listed on the front page is either wrong or incomplete.

Wow! Weird then! Normally the coalesc data at least means what it says.

No, for the same reason I haven't yet empirically measured the charge time--no access to a video feed from my XBox.

I can definitely say that you have to let the "eject" animation complete if you empty the clip. If you interrupt the animation (or are interrupted), you'll have to start firing or reload to start the animation again, or the weapon will simply sit empty.

Ah, for shame. One of the saner posters in this thread can't access the game files. I can't either (don't have the Prothean DLC), so we wait until someone either tests or digs and until then the hysteria continues.

So if the clip is empty it doesn't recharge, and you have to reload?

It should be 30 rounds, when I shoot it with extended clip it goes from 180 to 150, then goes to carged mode. I still don't think it's 50 rounds, unless the normal 100 clip goes to 50 for some reasing?

[KyreneZA]

rmccowen wrote...

If you empty the clip, you get the "eject" animation. Normally, that animation (however long) completes, and the gun begins charging from zero on its own. But if you roll, sprint, cast a power, are staggered, etc. during the animation, the gun won't charge at all. Then, the next time you try to fire (or when you hit the reload button), the animation will begin again; once the animation completes, the gun starts charging.

The Adrenaline Rush power doesn't automatically reload the gun the way it does with regular weapons, but it does start the charging process immediately. It's not much of an advantage under normal use, because the recharge delay is fairly short, but when you run the battery dry you can skip the whole animation.

So we have two effects working here (correct me if I'm wrong) before we can commence firing again:

• Reload time (like any other gun in the game, currently duration unknown; I'm guessing in the region of 2.90s like all the other 'slow reloading' ARs)
• Some recharge rate (I'm assuming 35% of a full clip / second--rechargeratepersecond [0.35f]; this gives us another ~2.86s to fully recharge)

So in an ideal world (if you stop firing when there is one round left), the effective sustained DPS of this rifle should only take into account the time it takes to recharge a clip back to full. You could approximate the delay to "heat up" by making the approximated magazine size* = adding the timetoheatup (however long it really is) to the remainder of the full clip (multiplied by 4 because of the 'hot' damage) and dividing the whole lot by 4, then simply multiply the damage per round by 4 to compensate. This won't fully take into account the damage reduction due to armored targets, but is close enough.

*approximated mag size = ((((mag size * (1 + mag upgrade%)) - (RoF * timetoheatup / 60)) * 4) + (RoF * timetoheatup / 60)) / 4**
**if it always takes 50 rounds to "heat up," (RoF * timetoheatup / 60) = 50, making the formula:
approximated mag size = ((((mag size * (1 + mag upgrade%)) - 50) * 4) + 50) / 4

Modifié par Kyrene, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[KyreneZA]

Well, this is interesting:
fullrechargedelay=5.f
partialrechargedelay=1.5f
reloadduration=5.0f

Does that mean it only takes 1.5s to recharge if the current clip is not emptied, but a whopping 10s to reload & recharge if emptied?

timetoheatup=2.f

This seems to indicate 2s to heat up, or ~27 rounds.