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[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

A good example of these people who think that Deus Ex, The Witcher, Mass Effect, any game with a voiced protagonist is not an RPG is the use of the word 'gay'.

You can't change formal definitions like that.  Doing so renders language largely useless.

Wrong. You can and should. Language evolves with the people that use it. This has always been the case, and is one of the many functions of language: To express our thoughts. If the language never changes, but the thoughts do, then the language becomes useless.

You can add new definitions.  You cannot discard old ones.

An RPG is and will always remain a roleplaying game.  I will not allow RPG to become a meaningless acronym like R&B.

[Pasquale1234]

Cimeas wrote...

A good example of these people who think that Deus Ex, The Witcher, Mass Effect, any game with a voiced protagonist is not an RPG is the use of the word 'gay'.

Originally, 'gay' did not mean homosexual. It meant 'happy', and you can see examples, for example in on of Enid Blyton's children's books I believe there is a line that goes something like: 'And the threesome walked gayly along, through the forest'. However, in order to project a better image of homosexuality at a time when aids was though to be most rampant among that community, people began using 'gay' as a synonym for that.

-John

The word has a much more colorful background than you're giving it credit for, and has been used in reference to sexual activity since the 1600s.  HIV/AIDS was pretty much unknown until the early to mid 1980s, but 'gay' was used to refer to homosexuals long before that.

That said, I do understand and agree that language tends to change over time, sometimes through misuse, other times through invention.  Whether that improves or degrades communication is debatable.  Gender, for example, was a much more powerful descriptor before it became popular to use it in reference to binary M/F biological sex.

Regardless of the appearance of the label on the package, I don't consider a game to be an RPG if I can't use it to role-play.  YMMV.

[Maclimes]

bEVEsthda wrote...

You are correct in how language works. St Mad is however also correct in that formal definitions cannot be changed that way. However, it does seem as if 'RPG' is not a formal definition.

The mere fact that some people want to use "RPG" for something else, only means that the term "RPG" becomes meaningless. It changes nothing about the games or preferences. You have only deprived a community of the word for their preferences. As common as that vile act of oppression may seem, it never changes the actual content of the preferences.

True. Some people refer to RPGs as any game in which you play a role. Which would be nearly all single-protagonist games. (Games like Tetris obviously don't fit that bill. But maybe Dr. Mario does?)

Some people refer to RPGs as any game in which you get to make actual decisions for the character in a meaningful way. (Super Mario Bros would not qualify, since you play a role, but have no meaningul decisions to make. Whereas Infamous would, since you get to make decisions about the character.)

Some people further quantify that to be an RPG, there must be full stat and item customization, or extremely detailed character control, or some other further qualifications.

Some would even say that NO video game has EVER been an RPG, since only with pen-and-paper can you truly achieve absolute control over your character.

As an aside, I wonder: Is The Sims an RPG? You control a character or group of characters, with assigned stats and skills. The characters have goals, personalities, and decisions, decided entirely by you the player. You guide every aspect of their lives with far more control than any "RPG" I have ever seen. Does it not qualify because it lacks combat? Is it TOO detailed? What is it about The Sims that disqualifies it as an RPG?

The issue is this: If no one can agree on a definition for "RPG", then the phrase cannot be used in any meaningful way to describe a game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The word has a much more colorful background than you're giving it credit for, and has been used in reference to sexual activity since the 1600s.  HIV/AIDS was pretty much unknown until the early to mid 1980s, but 'gay' was used to refer to homosexuals long before that.

This.

I remember the 1970s.  Gay meant homosexual.  And happy.

And it still does.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

The word has a much more colorful background than you're giving it credit for, and has been used in reference to sexual activity since the 1600s.  HIV/AIDS was pretty much unknown until the early to mid 1980s, but 'gay' was used to refer to homosexuals long before that.

This.

I remember the 1970s.  Gay meant homosexual.  And happy.

And it still does.

So a single word can have new definitions added to it. Just like "RPG".

[Pasquale1234]

Maclimes wrote...

As an aside, I wonder: Is The Sims an RPG? You control a character or group of characters, with assigned stats and skills. The characters have goals, personalities, and decisions, decided entirely by you the player. You guide every aspect of their lives with far more control than any "RPG" I have ever seen. Does it not qualify because it lacks combat? Is it TOO detailed? What is it about The Sims that disqualifies it as an RPG?

i've thought about that a lot myself.  BTW - The Sims Medieval does include sword combat, and I think there is an ex-pack that allows Sims to learn martial arts and go on adventures where you'll have an opportunity to use them.

In many ways, The Sims games are like the ultimate create-your-own story sandboxes.  They allow role-play, so I would think it appropriate to label them as such.

The issue is this: If no one can agree on a definition for "RPG", then the phrase cannot be used in any meaningful way to describe a game.

I think we're already there.  The term is used on a lot of games I can't role-play, so it's become meaningless to me.

[Realmzmaster]

There is no formal definition of what is an rpg. The term role playing games encompasses quite a few sub genres. What you do have is gamer's preferences on what they believe a crpg or rpg to be or what they want it to be.

Role playing in its broadest definition is simply playing a role. Gamer's have their preferences on defining the RPGness of a game.

Some believe if the game deviates to much from the D & D mechanics it ceases to be a crpg. Some believe that the only true crpg is based on D & D mechanics. Some gamers believe that it is quite possible to build games using other rpg systems such as the World of Darkness, Tunnels and Trolls, GURPS etc.

Gamers like to categorize the games into action-crpg, turn-based crpg, realtime with pause, jrpg, wrpg etc. All fall under the umbrella of CRPG and RPG.

The amount of RPGness in a game is also so subjective. I had no problem roleplaying in DA2 others did. All of it comes down to subjective preference.

I only speak for myself when I say i had no trouble roleplaying in DA2. I like the voiced protagonist after playing decades of silent ones.

I have no problem with a well written manual but I also realize that everyone does not learn that way. A good in game tutorial goes a long way to helping gamers get into the game and learn the system.

If an item says is gives +184 cold resistance. I can equip it on a character and check the resistances to see what percentage protection the character receives. I have insight into how it works. Some gamers need everything spelled out in the manual to get maximum satisfaction from the game which is fine. I do not.

I do not have a particular playstyle. I know what I like and have no problem voicing that opinion. That all it is my opinion. If it clashes with someone else's opinion that is life. I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I like what I like. If others do not like it then so be it. The developers will have to walk that fine line.

I also play wargames and I step into that role as Patton, Rommel or Montgomery. It is not considered a roleplaying game but I get to play the role. I have the same equipment and men that they had. The player agency comes in the decision making. I get to make the decisions. The outcome could still end up the same. In some of the battles you know that a win is not possible the task is to minimize the losses and your opponents gains while making a retreat. The idea is to make better decisions than the historical figure.
As I say YMMV.

[Maclimes]

Realmzmaster wrote...

There is no formal definition of what is an rpg. The term role playing games encompasses quite a few sub genres. What you do have is gamer's preferences on what they believe a crpg or rpg to be or what they want it to be.
<ka-snip>
As I say YMMV.

You seem like a decent fellow. Congratulations on maintaing sanity and perspective on these forums. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. In short, I agree with you 100%.

[batlin]

Maclimes wrote...

True. Some people refer to RPGs as any game in which you play a role. Which would be nearly all single-protagonist games. (Games like Tetris obviously don't fit that bill. But maybe Dr. Mario does?)

No. Player agency is also an inherent part of roleplaying, so a game like Dr. mario would not be one.

As an aside, I wonder: Is The Sims an RPG? You control a character or group of characters, with assigned stats and skills. The characters have goals, personalities, and decisions, decided entirely by you the player. You guide every aspect of their lives with far more control than any "RPG" I have ever seen. Does it not qualify because it lacks combat? Is it TOO detailed? What is it about The Sims that disqualifies it as an RPG?

Sims could be an RPG in the way playing with a dollhouse is an RPG. That doesn't mean playing with a dollhouse is anything like D&D, which is what Baldur's Gate was based on, and Dragon Age as an extension.

The issue is this: If no one can agree on a definition for "RPG", then the phrase cannot be used in any meaningful way to describe a game.

Just because the label "RPG" is attributed to a lot of things that aren't actually RPGs (read: JRPGs) doesn't actually change the acronym. An RPG is a Role-Playing Game. Peroid.

Modifié par batlin, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:35 .

[Maclimes]

batlin wrote...
Sims could be an RPG in the way playing with a dollhouse is an RPG. That doesn't mean playing with a dollhouse is anything like D&D, which is what Baldur's Gate was based on, and Dragon Age as an extension.

 

No, but it doesn't have to be like D&D to be an RPG.

batlin wrote... 

Just because the label "RPG" is attributed to a lot of things that aren't actually RPGs (read: JRPGs) doesn't actually change the acronym. An RPG is a Role-Playing Game. Peroid.

Um, JRPGs do allow you to play a role. You just don't get to CREATE the role. You still get to PLAY the role.

Like an actor in a play. An actor is most definetly PLAYING a ROLE, but they don't get to create it, or even make decisions about it. At most, they can have some mild influence over the character, but that's about it.

***

No one has yet to actually DEFINE what the term "RPG" means. If it means "a game in which you play a role", then even Dr. Mario is a RPG, because you play the role of Dr. Mario, fighting viruses.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad: You're the one who said that everything must be quantified and defined to be understood. Even reading people's tone of voice requires a manual. So, I put it to you thus:

Define the term "Role-Playing Game", in a way that can be used to determine what is (or is not) a Role-Playing Game.

[AkiKishi]

Maclimes wrote...

batlin wrote...
Sims could be an RPG in the way playing with a dollhouse is an RPG. That doesn't mean playing with a dollhouse is anything like D&D, which is what Baldur's Gate was based on, and Dragon Age as an extension.

 

No, but it doesn't have to be like D&D to be an RPG.

batlin wrote... 

Just because the label "RPG" is attributed to a lot of things that aren't actually RPGs (read: JRPGs) doesn't actually change the acronym. An RPG is a Role-Playing Game. Peroid.

Um, JRPGs do allow you to play a role. You just don't get to CREATE the role. You still get to PLAY the role.

Like an actor in a play. An actor is most definetly PLAYING a ROLE, but they don't get to create it, or even make decisions about it. At most, they can have some mild influence over the character, but that's about it.

***

No one has yet to actually DEFINE what the term "RPG" means. If it means "a game in which you play a role", then even Dr. Mario is a RPG, because you play the role of Dr. Mario, fighting viruses.

I think as long as you have a character that is not a direct extension of your own abilities , the rest is open to interpretation.

Is Atelier more of a roleplaying game because it has 18 different endings ? You may not get conversation choices, but what you do during the game does matter with regards to how the game ends. Far more so than DA,DA2 or ME3.
It's also one of the few series that still uses a timer, so in that respect everything you do matters since something that seems unimportant can mean failure in the long term when you run out of days.

[batlin]

Maclimes wrote...

No, but it doesn't have to be like D&D to be an RPG.

Yeah, I'm just pointing out the differences.

batlin wrote... 

Um, JRPGs do allow you to play a role. You just don't get to CREATE the role. You still get to PLAY the role.

Yes, in the same way you PLAY the role of Mario in any of his games.

Role-playing means you have the ability to make decisions and imbue your character with a personality. In a JRPG, you're not roleplaying a character so much as you're guiding the character on rails into new cutscenes in which you sit back and watch, effectively no longer as a player, but as the audience.

Like an actor in a play. An actor is most definetly PLAYING a ROLE, but they don't get to create it, or even make decisions about it. At most, they can have some mild influence over the character, but that's about it.

Not the same thing at all. The actor cannot affect the plot any way he/she chooses (unless they're a really bad actor)

No one has yet to actually DEFINE what the term "RPG" means. If it means "a game in which you play a role", then even Dr. Mario is a RPG, because you play the role of Dr. Mario, fighting viruses.

As I said before, player agency is inherent in what is an RPG. Making decisions and those decisions having relevant effects on the plot, as well as fleshing out your character's personality yourself. You can't do that in Dr. Mario, in most JRPGs, and even most times in DA2.

Modifié par batlin, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .

[AkiKishi]

batlin wrote...


Yes, in the same way you PLAY the role of Mario in any of his games.

Role-playing means you have the ability to make decisions and imbue your character with a personality. In a JRPG, you're not roleplaying a character so much as you're guiding the character on rails into new cutscenes in which you sit back and watch, effectively no longer as a player, but as the audience.

Don't play many JRPGs do you.

[Maclimes]

batlin wrote...

As I said before, player agency is inherent in what is an RPG. Making decisions and those decisions having relevant effects on the plot, as well as fleshing out your character's personality yourself. You can't do that in Dr. Mario, in most JRPGs, and even most times in DA2.

Is Grand Theft Auto an RPG?

[batlin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

batlin wrote...


Yes, in the same way you PLAY the role of Mario in any of his games.

Role-playing means you have the ability to make decisions and imbue your character with a personality. In a JRPG, you're not roleplaying a character so much as you're guiding the character on rails into new cutscenes in which you sit back and watch, effectively no longer as a player, but as the audience.

Don't play many JRPGs do you.

*most JRPGs.

[batlin]

Maclimes wrote...

Is Grand Theft Auto an RPG?

No, because your character has a set personality and you can't affect the plot outside of, like, two missions that can be finished in one of two ways and neither way makes much of a difference.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Um, JRPGs do allow you to play a role. You just don't get to CREATE the role. You still get to PLAY the role.

Like an actor in a play. An actor is most definetly PLAYING a ROLE, but they don't get to create it, or even make decisions about it. At most, they can have some mild influence over the character, but that's about it.

I think the word "play" is misused when applied to actors.  Or, perhaps, this involves a different definition of the word play.

Roleplaying consists of in-character decision-making.  I'd be happy to define any game that permits that as a roleplaying game.

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad: You're the one who said that everything must be quantified and defined to be understood. Even reading people's tone of voice requires a manual.

It does.  Body language, too.  Do you have one?

So, I put it to you thus:

Define the term "Role-Playing Game", in a way that can be used to determine what is (or is not) a Role-Playing Game.

Having now done that, I'd be interested to see others' definitions.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:05 .

[Maclimes]

I guess, let me put it to you like this. Which of these elements do a game have to possess to be an RPG?

1. Stat/Attribute/Skill system
2. Itemization/Loot
3. Visual Customization
4. Personality Choices (Am I nice, am I mean?)
5. Plot Choices/Decisions (Do I help group X, or group Y?)
6. Combat
7. Multiple Possible Endings
8. Party/Companions/Minions (As opposed to, say, Kratos, who is all alone)
9. Outcomes of combat based on skills/randomization, not player dexterity
10. Outcomes of dialogue based on skills/randomization, not player decisions*
11. Tactical combat (The ability to directly control all party members simultaneously via pausing or turn-based menus)
12. Branching plot lines.
13. A single central protagonist.
14. Other: _____________.

*I want to elaborate on number 10. Assume a situation where a guard asks you why you need to pass. In a skill based setup, you may have the option to Lie, Persuade, or Seduce, and your success at doing so is based on "dice rolls". In a non-skill based setup, the player could choose between, "I'm an exterminator", "I'm the king", or "I really want to", and the guard's reaction is based directly on the believably of the option chosen by the player (not on any "Subterfuge" skill).

Remember, I'm asking which ones it HAS TO HAVE to be considered a Role-Playing Game. Not which ones are preferred.

Modifié par Maclimes, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:14 .

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Roleplaying consists of in-character decision-making.  I'd be happy to define any game that permits that as a roleplaying game.

Having now done that, I'd be interested to see others' definitions.

That's it? It's that simple?

So The Sims is an RPG? Interesting.

[batlin]

Maclimes wrote...

I guess, let me put it to you like this. Which of these elements do a game have to possess to be an RPG?

1. Stat/Attribute/Skill system
2. Itemization/Loot
3. Visual Customization
4. Personality Choices (Am I nice, am I mean?)
5. Plot Choices/Decisions (Do I help group X, or group Y?)
6. Combat
7. Multiple Possible Endings
8. Party/Companions/Minions (As opposed to, say, Kratos, who is all alone)
9. Outcomes of combat based on skills/randomization, not player dexterity
10. Outcomes of dialogue based on skills/randomization, not player decisions*
11. Tactical combat (The ability to directly control all party members simultaneously via pausing or turn-based menus)
12. Branching plot lines.
13. A single central protagonist.
14. Other: _____________.

Those. Of course, an RPG that wants to be akin to D&D will also have to include 1, 2, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11

[Maclimes]

batlin wrote...

Those. Of course, an RPG that wants to be akin to D&D will also have to include 1, 2, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11

Naturally. All this talk of RPGs makes me want to start up a new weekend D&D game... Just need to stuff the kids in a closet somewhere soundproof. 

[FieryDove]

Bah I thought this was a thread about JE2...another what is an RPG thread...sigh

We do need more JE.

[Maclimes]

FieryDove wrote...

Bah I thought this was a thread about JE2...another what is an RPG thread...sigh

We do need more JE.

Agreed. Jade Empire was one of my favorite Bioware games.

[Cimeas]

Yes, we need more JE. Fantastic game, Bioware's best imho. I just want to explore more of that world, whereas I think I have less interest in DA's standard 'Dark Fantasy' or ME's sci-fi after the turned it from science fiction into a 'space marine EPIC galactic war' game.