274 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

spiriticon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...



 
Given that one of them has several hundreds of times (50+ gigatons) the yield of a ME dreadnought and can one shot a reaper capital ship every few seconds......yeah that would have helped

These guns?! Where are they coming from? A codex entry would make me a very curious person.

I might actually believe a conventional victory could have been possible....

halo universe...supermacs are mounted on orbital stations and infinity class ships


 
Their regular macs built in smaller ships still have three times the yield of a mass effect dreadnough main gun

Modifié par crimzontearz, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:41 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Sousabird wrote...

the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

Don't forget to include the Geth, who have almost as many as the Turians. One thing I don't understand is why people think that Dreadnoughts are the only possible way to destroy other Dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts are far and few, and they don't make up the bulk of a faction's Navy. Sovereign was destroyed by mainly cruisers and fighters, and once its shields were down, it was destroyed pretty quickly.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

wantedman dan wrote...

Pardon the OP for not arguing his position. He is simply too wrapped up in excusing Bioware for their usage of poor literary tropes.

[spiriticon]

crimzontearz wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...



 
Given that one of them has several hundreds of times (50+ gigatons) the yield of a ME dreadnought and can one shot a reaper capital ship every few seconds......yeah that would have helped

These guns?! Where are they coming from? A codex entry would make me a very curious person.

I might actually believe a conventional victory could have been possible....

halo universe...supermacs are mounted on orbital stations and infinity class ships


 
Their regular macs built in smaller ships still have three times the yield of a mass effect dreadnough main gun

haha oh right... Yeah having Master Chief along for the ride would have helped too!

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Stranger things have happened over the course of this narrative.

Well it's a shame that TIM found it, maybe if the Alliance had found the tech it might have been useful.

I'm gonna go with the writers forgot about it as the more logical explanation for why it's never brought up in ME3. Or because it would have ****ed with their ****** plot.

Modifié par Tritium315, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:46 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

Rasputin we get it, you would lose conventionally.

While many others would win conventionally.

Uhm no. Beating the Reapers conventionally isn't possible. 

Until a Bioware lead says that, it is entirely up for debate.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

TookYoCookies wrote...

Rasputin we get it, you would lose conventionally.

While many others would win conventionally.

Uhm no. Beating the Reapers conventionally isn't possible. 

Until a Bioware lead says that, it is entirely up for debate.

I tried giving some insight in this thread that no one paid attention to.

How many ships does the Alliance (and other races) have?

RadicalDisconnect said...

This is something I thought about after seeing quite a few conventional victory threads. Just how many ships does the Alliance have? The wiki states that it has just over 200 ships spread over 8 fleets. Of these 200 ships, 9 are dreadnoughts. The turians are stated to have 39 dreadnoughts before the invasion, the asari 22, the salarians 16, and one for the volus. According to codex and dialogue, the quarian heavy fleet doesn't have as many dreadnoughts as the turians, so I'll put their number at around 30. Similarly, if I remember correctly, the geth are stated to have about as many dreadnoughts as the turians. Lets say they have 35. Disregarding attrition, there are a total of 152 dreadnoughts if we take the best-case scenario.

Dreadnought summary (optimistic):
39 turian
35 geth
30 quarian
22 asari
16 salarian
9 human
1 volus
Total: 152 dreadnoughts

We don't have any quantitative data on the reaper fleet, but screenshots from the end of ME2 and the space battle over Earth in ME3 shows that they have at least 200 capital ships over Earth alone. If we consider that there are capital ships over earth not caught on camera or deployed in other systems, I reckon that the number of capital ships range from 600 to just under 1000. The bulk of the reaper fleet, the destroyers, are said to be in "astounding numbers." They are equivalent to organic/geth cruisers.

Reaper capital ship summary (pessimistic):
500 Sovereign-class capital ships

Based on these numbers, I think there is credence in saying that conventional victory against the reapers isn't possible. Sorry, but the reapers clearly have the numerical superiority here when it comes to combat warships. Their capital ships are also qualitatively superior, as they enjoy a favorable 1:4 loss exchange ratio compared to dreadnoughts. 

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:48 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Here, hypothesis time! The codex says there are 20000 reapers. I'd estimate about 1000-5000 are capital ships. Let's stay conservative. We have ~125 dreadnoughts. Let's assume all have Thanix weaponry which will allow them to match a reaper. I'll go ahead and say our dreadnoughts are lucky and take out 200 capital ships. That still leaves us with 800 capital ships and 19000 destroyers and only cruisers and lighter ships to fight them.

Where the hell does it say there are 20,000 Reapers? You just pulled those numbers out of your ass.

[crimzontearz]

spiriticon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...



 
Given that one of them has several hundreds of times (50+ gigatons) the yield of a ME dreadnought and can one shot a reaper capital ship every few seconds......yeah that would have helped

These guns?! Where are they coming from? A codex entry would make me a very curious person.

I might actually believe a conventional victory could have been possible....

halo universe...supermacs are mounted on orbital stations and infinity class ships


 
Their regular macs built in smaller ships still have three times the yield of a mass effect dreadnough main gun

haha oh right... Yeah having Master Chief along for the ride would have helped too!

well....the Infinity in halo 4 is a 5.6 kilometers long ship with a crew of 17 000 souls and hundreds of spartan4s on board....that would have helped too

[Conniving_Eagle]

D24O wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

If they engage at close range. And how many do we have? I'd assume less than 5000. My personal guess would be around 1500.

Quarians have 50k ships. I'd say a good thousand or so might be cruiser strength. Add to that the Geth and I'd double your number. But I am speculating.

"Speculation, speculation for everyone."

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...

I'm gonna go with the writers forgot about it as the more logical explanation for why it's never brought up in ME3. Or because it would have ****ed with their ****** plot.

Well not only did the gun fall into the wrong hands, but the researchers who were sent to find that Reaper were indoctrinated as well.

Explaining how it suddenly was found by the Alliance, miniaturised and put onto every Alliance ship would require space magic on par with what BioWare has given us.

New space magic is not better than old space magic.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Sousabird wrote...

the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

Don't forget to include the Geth, who have almost as many as the Turians. One thing I don't understand is why people think that Dreadnoughts are the only possible way to destroy other Dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts are far and few, and they don't make up the bulk of a faction's Navy. Sovereign was destroyed by mainly cruisers and fighters, and once its shields were down, it was destroyed pretty quickly.

Yes, but until you have an effective way of doing that, the reapers have a clear advantage.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

I'm gonna go with the writers forgot about it as the more logical explanation for why it's never brought up in ME3. Or because it would have ****ed with their ****** plot.

Well not only did the gun fall into the wrong hands, but the researchers who were sent to find that Reaper were indoctrinated as well.

Explaining how it suddenly was found by the Alliance, miniaturised and put onto every Alliance ship would require space magic on par with what BioWare has given us.

New space magic is not better than old space magic.

Explaining that would be a hell of a lot easier than crucible. Instead of Mars they could have made the first mission be an assault on some Cerberus research base and found the gun there.

As for it being small enough to fit on a ship, there are a dozen different explanations they could've come up with. Maybe whatever ancient race made it was able to figure out how to accelerate projectiles faster by using more efficient mass effect fields thus allowing for a cannon that's the same size to deliver a projectile that does 100 times more kinetic energy (due to traveling 10 times faster). Then the rest of the game proceeds as normal with Shep collecting war assets to increase the speed at which we construct these cannons while also increasing the number of available ships upon which to mount said cannons. Then, at the final battle, if your EMS is high enough you're able to beat the Reapers with a strong enough fleet.

That sure as **** sounds better than the Crucible/Catalyst shenanigans we got.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

I'm gonna go with the writers forgot about it as the more logical explanation for why it's never brought up in ME3. Or because it would have ****ed with their ****** plot.

Well not only did the gun fall into the wrong hands, but the researchers who were sent to find that Reaper were indoctrinated as well.

Explaining how it suddenly was found by the Alliance, miniaturised and put onto every Alliance ship would require space magic on par with what BioWare has given us.

New space magic is not better than old space magic.

Explaining that would be a hell of a lot easier than crucible. Instead of Mars they could have made the first mission be an assault on some Cerberus research base and found the gun there.

As for it being small enough to fit on a ship, there are a dozen different explanations they could've come up with. Maybe whatever ancient race made it was able to figure out how to accelerate projectiles faster by using more efficient mass effect fields thus allowing for a cannon that's the same size to deliver a projectile that does 100 times more kinetic energy (due to traveling 10 times faster). Then the rest of the game proceeds as normal with Shep collecting war assets to increase the speed at which we construct these cannons while also increasing the number of available ships upon which to mount said cannons. Then, at the final battle, if your EMS is high enough you're able to beat the Reapers with a strong enough fleet.

That sure as **** sounds better than the Crucible/Catalyst shenanigans we got.

As far as I can tell, the mass accelerator that disabled the derelict reaper succeeded because of its sheer size. It is likely no more efficient than the current mass accelerators that ME warships use. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[wantedman dan]

wantedman dan wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Nah, it worked great. 

How so?

Still waiting on this answer, OP.

[Tritium315]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

I'm gonna go with the writers forgot about it as the more logical explanation for why it's never brought up in ME3. Or because it would have ****ed with their ****** plot.

Well not only did the gun fall into the wrong hands, but the researchers who were sent to find that Reaper were indoctrinated as well.

Explaining how it suddenly was found by the Alliance, miniaturised and put onto every Alliance ship would require space magic on par with what BioWare has given us.

New space magic is not better than old space magic.

Explaining that would be a hell of a lot easier than crucible. Instead of Mars they could have made the first mission be an assault on some Cerberus research base and found the gun there.

As for it being small enough to fit on a ship, there are a dozen different explanations they could've come up with. Maybe whatever ancient race made it was able to figure out how to accelerate projectiles faster by using more efficient mass effect fields thus allowing for a cannon that's the same size to deliver a projectile that does 100 times more kinetic energy (due to traveling 10 times faster). Then the rest of the game proceeds as normal with Shep collecting war assets to increase the speed at which we construct these cannons while also increasing the number of available ships upon which to mount said cannons. Then, at the final battle, if your EMS is high enough you're able to beat the Reapers with a strong enough fleet.

That sure as **** sounds better than the Crucible/Catalyst shenanigans we got.

As far as I can tell, the mass accelerator that disabled the derelict reaper succeeded because of its sheer size. It is likely no more efficient than the current mass accelerators that ME warships use. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think we know one way or another, it was stated in the planetary description that people theorized the rift was made by a round of unimaginable destructive power, make of that what you will. Regardless, a miniaturized super cannon with more efficient mass effect fields or whatever explanation they came up with would have been easier to swallow than shooting a giant tube with "incase of Reaper invasion, install battery and break glass" written on it.

[Tealjaker94]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Here, hypothesis time! The codex says there are 20000 reapers. I'd estimate about 1000-5000 are capital ships. Let's stay conservative. We have ~125 dreadnoughts. Let's assume all have Thanix weaponry which will allow them to match a reaper. I'll go ahead and say our dreadnoughts are lucky and take out 200 capital ships. That still leaves us with 800 capital ships and 19000 destroyers and only cruisers and lighter ships to fight them.

Where the hell does it say there are 20,000 Reapers? You just pulled those numbers out of your ass.

Sorry I mixed up my sources. It's been calculated that based on one Reaper capital ship per cycle, there should be at least 20000 made so far. I used 1000 as my number, which is an incredibly conservative estimate of Reaper strength.

[Funkdrspot]

[quote]Naerivar wrote...

[quote]Tealjaker94 wrote...


I'll admit I know little of your VIetnam war. And undoubtedly factors beyond rough terrain would have played a cause. The fact remains however that you can't just pit numbers against numbers and cross out ships on either side. There are indrecibly many tactics one could use in space to destroy your enemies. The Reapers won't do this until maybe the end, when they're low on numbers. They rely to much on their superiority.

As long as you can make use of the Relay network you have a chance. And looking at the ending at ME3, crossing the Relays was still possible.

[/quote]Your logic cant get much worse. youre using an example of a war you admittedly know nothing about to prove your point through similarities and comparisons?! If you know nothing about Vietnam, then all youre really doing is manipulating the example to fit your narrative.

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...


I don't think we know one way or another, it was stated in the planetary description that people theorized the rift was made by a round of unimaginable destructive power, make of that what you will. Regardless, a miniaturized super cannon with more efficient mass effect fields or whatever explanation they came up with would have been easier to swallow than shooting a giant tube with "incase of Reaper invasion, install battery and break glass" written on it.

Actually there were massive holes found on the Reaper. It wasn't a one hit kill. It was several hits. It's not an upgrade over the weapons we currently have.

Shepard already has a weapon of similar power in the form of orbital strikes on Priority:Rannoch.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...


I don't think we know one way or another, it was stated in the planetary description that people theorized the rift was made by a round of unimaginable destructive power, make of that what you will. Regardless, a miniaturized super cannon with more efficient mass effect fields or whatever explanation they came up with would have been easier to swallow than shooting a giant tube with "incase of Reaper invasion, install battery and break glass" written on it.

Actually there were massive holes found on the Reaper. It wasn't a one hit kill. It was several hits. It's not an upgrade over the weapons we currently have.

Shepard already has a weapon of similar power in the form of orbital strikes on Priority:Rannoch.

Pretty sure we don't have anything that can put a canyon in a planet stretching a whole hemisphere with just a glancing blow from one round.

[hoodaticus]

D24O wrote...

Gooby pls read the codex.

WTF is a gooby?

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...


I don't think we know one way or another, it was stated in the planetary description that people theorized the rift was made by a round of unimaginable destructive power, make of that what you will. Regardless, a miniaturized super cannon with more efficient mass effect fields or whatever explanation they came up with would have been easier to swallow than shooting a giant tube with "incase of Reaper invasion, install battery and break glass" written on it.

Actually there were massive holes found on the Reaper. It wasn't a one hit kill. It was several hits. It's not an upgrade over the weapons we currently have.

Shepard already has a weapon of similar power in the form of orbital strikes on Priority:Rannoch.

Pretty sure we don't have anything that can put a canyon in a planet stretching a whole hemisphere with just a glancing blow from one round.

We don't want to create craters. We want to destroy Reapers. If it takes several shots, it's not any better than what was used on Rannoch.

And besides, can you imagine firing that weapon AT Earth to destroy Reapers?

May as well let them take over.

Modifié par spiriticon, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:03 .

[hoodaticus]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Here, hypothesis time! The codex says there are 20000 reapers. I'd estimate about 1000-5000 are capital ships. Let's stay conservative. We have ~125 dreadnoughts. Let's assume all have Thanix weaponry which will allow them to match a reaper. I'll go ahead and say our dreadnoughts are lucky and take out 200 capital ships. That still leaves us with 800 capital ships and 19000 destroyers and only cruisers and lighter ships to fight them.

Where the hell does it say there are 20,000 Reapers? You just pulled those numbers out of your ass.

Sorry I mixed up my sources. It's been calculated that based on one Reaper capital ship per cycle, there should be at least 20000 made so far. I used 1000 as my number, which is an incredibly conservative estimate of Reaper strength.

Not really.  We know they lose some, and also you need to remember this: how many Reaper capital ships did they get out of the Prothean cycle?

Zero.  It don't always work.  Plus, before they built up their initial numbers, they would have taken horrendous losses.

Also, not every cycle will necesarily produce ANY sapient life forms.  Evolution aint on a timer.

[wantedman dan]

hoodaticus wrote...

D24O wrote...

Gooby pls read the codex.

WTF is a gooby?

Dolan Pls

[D24O]

hoodaticus wrote...

D24O wrote...

Gooby pls read the codex.

WTF is a gooby?

U r a Gooby.