274 réponses à ce sujet

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

The point is we don't have anything near as strong as that gun. And it did one shot the Reaper; the big ass hole in the side is where the weapon hit. If it took multiple hits there'd be a lot of big ass holes and a couple more planets with canyons in them. As for the rest of the damage that's probably from being stuck in a failed star for 37 million years.

As for Earth, based on the cutscene of the battle Earth should be a smoldering wasteland regardless unless every single one of those shots we fired hit a Reaper. Each missed shot is like dropping a nuke on the surface.

There were several holes on the reaper.

But in your ending, everyone dies anyway because we used guns strong enough to create craters in planets and fired it like a machine gun?

So instead of having the magic crucible, we have the magic gun? There's a lot of space magic going on here.

It's not exactly magic since it's explaned in the context of the story. On top of that it would have been foreshadowed. The Crucible, on the other hand, came out of nowhere and  was never explained outside of  "you wouldn't know who made it"

As for blowing up Earth it would probably make sense to attack the Reapers from an angle that doesn't put Earth directly behind them, but that wouldn't make as strong an image in the cinematic.

Edit: One big hole.

Actually, I think that super weapon WAS the crucible, but that they failed to connect those dots in ME3.  Of course, how it went from super weapon to super duper catalyst hacking tool is anyone's guess.

[wantedman dan]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Nah, it worked great. 

How so?

Still waiting on this answer, OP.

I don't think you'll get one. It's hard to openly admit that you're a Bioware/EA Yes man.

OP is confirmed troll. I just enjoy adding evidence to the heaping pile.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Sovereign class ships: more than 500, less than 100.
Destroyers: Anywhere from double to quadruple that.

Gonna bash on me, now?

No, though I think you mean less than 500, more than 100. As I said we have no actual evidence to speak of.

Fixed that now, sorry. Added the extra zero.

[Han Shot First]

I have no idea whether or not EDI says anything about Reapers and dreadnought fire, so I won't weight in on that.

I do however agree with the OP's assetion that conventional victory was simply not possible. The technological gulf between the Reapers and their opponents was too great for the galactic armada to somehow pull off a conventional victory. Sovereign did not sustain any damage before Shepard brought it's shields down, and it took the entire Migrant Fleet to bring down a single Reaper Destroyer. Even the codex states that it takes the combined firepower of more than 3 dreadnoughts to bring a Reaper, and no indication is ever given that the civilizations of the galaxy possess a signficant enough quantitative edge to offet the Reaper's qualitative advantage. Finally, Hacket states that they can't win conventionally and no other military leader disagrees with him. Considering these military leaders are 'in the know' regarding the Reaper order of battle, I'd say Shepard (and the players) can take them at their word.

In order for there to have been a conventional victory ending, Mass Effect 2 would have had to have been a very different game with the civilizations of the galaxy overcoming their technological deficiencies. By the time the Reapers invade at the start of Mass Effect 3,it is too late for massive Reaper tech upgrades. You can't overhaul a single ship overnight even in peacetime, let alone entire fleets.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:36 .

[Tealjaker94]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Fixed that now, sorry. Added the extra zero.

Oh then even better. I think it's a conservative estimate but definitely a possibility. We simply don't know enough about how capital ships fared in past cycles to get a good estimate.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

jeffyg93 wrote...

No one is claiming that the Reapers are invincible. The galaxy was ****ing unprepared. Their enemy is stronger physically, stronger, and outnumbers them. It is not a stretch of the imagination to come to the ****ing conclusion that it is impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally. Why the **** do you think that every cycle before this one has failed?

Ambushed and lockd into their home systems when the mass relays were shut off?  Didn't have th Thanix cannons?  Didn't concentrate dreadnought fire as "Reaper VUlnerabilitis" confirms will kill a reaper?  Didn't use nukes and warp bombs like the Krogans and Turians did on Palaven, successfully killing reaper Capitol ships in the process (Miracle at Palaven)?  Didn't have or use weapons like the Turian Bomb on Tuchanka?

Oh whoops, there went your argument.

[RadicalDisconnect]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

jeffyg93 wrote...

No one is claiming that the Reapers are invincible. The galaxy was ****ing unprepared. Their enemy is stronger physically, stronger, and outnumbers them. It is not a stretch of the imagination to come to the ****ing conclusion that it is impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally. Why the **** do you think that every cycle before this one has failed?

Ambushed and lockd into their home systems when the mass relays were shut off?  Didn't have th Thanix cannons?  Didn't concentrate dreadnought fire as "Reaper VUlnerabilitis" confirms will kill a reaper?  Didn't use nukes and warp bombs like the Krogans and Turians did on Palaven, successfully killing reaper Capitol ships in the process (Miracle at Palaven)?  Didn't have or use weapons like the Turian Bomb on Tuchanka?

Oh whoops, there went your argument.

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

Sorry, but the number of reaper capital ships far outnumber the number of dreadnoughts facing them. Even if we take the ultra-conservative estimate of 200 capital ships, that's still more than the 150 or so dreadnoughts that we can muster. Considering that the capital ships enjoy a 1:4 loss exchange ratio, it doesn't look good for us right now. The reapers clearly have the numerical superiority.

The suicide bombing of reaper ships on Palaven is a one-time occurrence. There's no guarantee that it can happen again, and it would be naive to think that the reapers didn't learn from that.

I'm expecting a response.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:45 .

[Tealjaker94]

I'm wondering what dreadnoughts can do against Reapers with Thanix weapons. The current ratio is about 4 dreadnoughts: 1 capital ship. Would Thanix double the firepower? Make it a 2:1 ratio? Any thoughts?

[RadicalDisconnect]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

I'm wondering what dreadnoughts can do against Reapers with Thanix weapons. The current ratio is about 4 dreadnoughts: 1 capital ship. Would Thanix double the firepower? Make it a 2:1 ratio? Any thoughts?

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

It's not exactly magic since it's explaned in the context of the story. On top of that it would have been foreshadowed. The Crucible, on the other hand, came out of nowhere and  was never explained outside of  "you wouldn't know who made it"

As for blowing up Earth it would probably make sense to attack the Reapers from an angle that doesn't put Earth directly behind them, but that wouldn't make as strong an image in the cinematic.

That gun kinda came outta nowhere as well in ME2. Every plot point has a beginning. The Crucible came from many cycles of work so it has a context story wise as well.

You have to imagine that you have billions of these rounds floating space ready to ruin somebody's day somewhere, sometime.

You've probably just did the Reapers work for them mostly. But fair enough a hell of a lot of Reapers would die.

The gun was foreshadowed a bit in ME1 'cause Klendagon was a planet you could read the description for and it specifically talked about the rift and the possibility of it being caused by a mass accelerator round.

Also it'd probably be better for the galaxy as a whole to have a stretch of it ****ed up (of course they could try and engage the Reapers so the sun or some other star would be directly behind them) than the alternative.

Like I said earlier though, this is just brainstorming. If one actually had to write the story for a AAA game one would probably put some thought into it and figure out a way to explain these things within the context of the story. Or maybe they'd just wing it and leave a bunch of plot holes; apparently that's acceptable too.

Modifié par Tritium315, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:52 .

[Tealjaker94]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

I'm wondering what dreadnoughts can do against Reapers with Thanix weapons. The current ratio is about 4 dreadnoughts: 1 capital ship. Would Thanix double the firepower? Make it a 2:1 ratio? Any thoughts?

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

The codex says that Thanix weapons improve how dreadnoughts perform against capital ships. I'm simply asking what people think the jump in performance would be. I personally don't believe conventional victory is possible, but I'm interested in what people think.

[TheCrazyHobo]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

I'm wondering what dreadnoughts can do against Reapers with Thanix weapons. The current ratio is about 4 dreadnoughts: 1 capital ship. Would Thanix double the firepower? Make it a 2:1 ratio? Any thoughts?

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

Thanix were upscaled.  

Read about the Volus Dreadnought. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Alien#Volus_Dreadnought_Kwunu 

Also, the Thanix cannons immensly multiply firepower as they are Reaper -based Weaponary.  

[RadicalDisconnect]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

I'm wondering what dreadnoughts can do against Reapers with Thanix weapons. The current ratio is about 4 dreadnoughts: 1 capital ship. Would Thanix double the firepower? Make it a 2:1 ratio? Any thoughts?

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

The codex says that Thanix weapons improve how dreadnoughts perform against capital ships. I'm simply asking what people think the jump in performance would be. I personally don't believe conventional victory is possible, but I'm interested in what people think.

Wait, where? 

[Tealjaker94]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

The codex says that Thanix weapons improve how dreadnoughts perform against capital ships. I'm simply asking what people think the jump in performance would be. I personally don't believe conventional victory is possible, but I'm interested in what people think.

Wait, where? 

The secondary codex entry titled Reaper vulnerabilities.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Thanix cannons aren't panaceas. The codex states that Thanix cannons are meant to give frigates firepower approaching that of cruisers. Although it's not inconceivable that the Thanix can be upscaled, it's not the wonder weapon that some are claiming it to be.

Sorry, but the number of reaper capital ships far outnumber the number of dreadnoughts facing them. Even if we take the ultra-conservative estimate of 200 capital ships, that's still more than the 150 or so dreadnoughts that we can muster. Considering that the capital ships enjoy a 1:4 loss exchange ratio, it doesn't look good for us right now. The reapers clearly have the numerical superiority.

The suicide bombing of reaper ships on Palaven is a one-time occurrence. There's no guarantee that it can happen again, and it would be naive to think that the reapers didn't learn from that.

I'm expecting a response.

But see, I'm not proposing that the fleets fly in like retards and blindly fire.  Yes, Thanix alone will not win it, it may reduce the ratio from 4-1, to 3-1, or even 2-1 though, and that would help, no?  And while it is unlikely that people will be able to infiltrate the reapers a 2nd time like on Palaven, it does mean that if any reapers end up with a hole, they're effectively dead if we're using the right tactics (fire a warp bomb or nuke into the hole, amirite?)

Plus, what about the Turian Bomb?  If resources were diverted from the crucible, they could be mass produced.  Have fleets initiate a battle a barely safe distance from every homeworld simultaneously (so that the reapers can't adapt until it is too late), and fire a Turian planet bomb into the reaper fleets.  Oh sure, it won't kill them all, but it'll seriously thin their ranks, will it not?

Also as for the numbers, that's simpy an unknown.  Pooling all the races together, there are likely 10's of millions of ships, if not hundreds of millions.  While risky, migrating the collctive fleets of the galaxy at once would make since considering it's effectively an extinction battle.  Even failing that, millions can be mobilized at once, and it's still unlikely the reapers will outnumber even that once the turian bombs go off.

That's not even accounting for the fact that if the technology was seized from cerberus at sanctuary, it can be deployed to make all husks turn on the reapers, dampening the advantage that huskification gives them.

[Rhz]

Some people here read too much into the cinematics, fact is that reaper weapons have a longer range/more accuracy than our dreadnoughts, which is shown wrongly in the final space battle as the sword fleet opens fire, reapers should have engaged first

So if the codex is correct then our ships couldnt get anywhere close enough to make precise shots to cut off tentacles ... and whats even the point of shooting of tentacles, except that the reaper cant land on a planet again (until repaired). I've never seen a capital ship getting destroy in ME3 only damaged capitals and those are obviously still able to shoot back

but the biggest problem is that our leaders like admiral hacket or anderson have zero knowledge of warfare, hacket is doing a frontal assault with all ships, anderson sends his people to death because he thought its might be a good idea to rush the beam in an exposed way so harbinger can shoot everyone instead of getting around/using the pillars of the beam as cover to break line of sight, congrats our admirals are the dumbest in human histroy

Modifié par Rhz, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

The codex says that Thanix weapons improve how dreadnoughts perform against capital ships. I'm simply asking what people think the jump in performance would be. I personally don't believe conventional victory is possible, but I'm interested in what people think.

Wait, where? 

The secondary codex entry titled Reaper vulnerabilities.

"Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts. "

I get that part. But nothing was said about dreadnoughts using the weapons to greater effect against capital ships.

[Tealjaker94]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

The secondary codex entry titled Reaper vulnerabilities.

"Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts. "

I get that part. But nothing was said about dreadnoughts using the weapons to greater effect against capital ships.

Way to take the sentence out of context. It's the last sentence in a paragraph talking about how dreadnoughts perform against capital ships.

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...

The gun was foreshadowed a bit in ME1 'cause Klendagon was a planet you could read the description for and it specifically talked about the rift and the possibility of it being caused by a mass accelerator round.

Also it'd prolly be better for the galaxy as a whole to have a stretch of it ****ed up (of course they could try and engage the Reapers so the sun or some other star would be directly behind them) than the alternative.

Like I said earlier though, this is just brainstorming. If one actually had to write the story for a AAA game one would probably put some thought into it and figure out a way to explain these things in the story. Or maybe they'd just wing it and leave a bunch of plot holes; apparently that's acceptable too.

That's fair enough. We're all here to speculate.

Using these guns would amount to genocide of the universe. Modifying them to target only reapers gives them the 'space magic gun' feel (even then they shoot THROUGH the reaper and creates craters in the next planet).

May as well use the Crucible plot device then.

A possible solution for a conventional victory, IMO, is to have every ship built to Normandy specification. Out maneuvre the Reapers and hit on the flank, and run away. Use speed to counter strength. Obviously if the Reapers shut the Mass Relays we're probably screwed, but hey.

 This cycle has no time to do it so Bioware's ending is probably the most realistic. But it doesn't stop the future cycles from building massive fleets of Normandies. The biggest gift in Liara's time capsule in Refusal is not the Crucible designs, but the Normandy's blueprints

Modifié par spiriticon, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:07 .

[eye basher]

You do know the normandy just barely beat the collector ship.

[MetioricTest]

They reverse engineer Reaper weapons to create weaker Reaper weapons for their ships.

3 Human/Turian/Asari dreadnought style ships pack just as much punch as a Reaper.

[Conniving_Eagle]

eye basher wrote...

You do know the normandy just barely beat the collector ship.

Second time around it decimated the collector ship. Once the particle beam from its main gun, the Normandy just put it down with the Thanix cannon.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

"Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts. "

I get that part. But nothing was said about dreadnoughts using the weapons to greater effect against capital ships.

Okay it wasn't specific but still, does it really have to specify?  Let's put it this way, if it's known that a certain kind of material makes bombs more explosive, do we have to specify that it would also enhance the bigger bombs?

[TheCrazyHobo]

eye basher wrote...

You do know the normandy just barely beat the collector ship.

Last Time I played Mass Effect 2, the Normandy demolished the Collector Ship with minimal damage. 

Did you not buy the Thanix Cannon?

[wantedman dan]

eye basher wrote...

You do know the normandy just barely beat the collector ship.

You and I must have watched two different cutscenes.

The Normandy I watched kicked Collector ass.