274 réponses à ce sujet

[flanny]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

That line from EDI during the Reaper IFF mission in ME2 seals the deal. A conventional victory would NEVER be possible! Period.

That is all. Nothing more to discuss. It's simply not possible. What we got in the refusal ending was the only realistic outcome.

read a codex before stating nonsense

[Kataphrut94]

We all know the rules. 4 dreadnoughts to a Reaper, according to the Codex. The Turians had 30-ish dreadnoughts at the start of the war, the other council races had less. There are at least a thousand Reapers. We can assume the 4 dreadnought rule already includes Thanix cannons since those figures would be based on the projections of the Reaper war and Thanix cannons had already been mass-produced by then. Put those numbers into a calculator and it makes a frowny face.

[Naerivar]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

We all know the rules. 4 dreadnoughts to a Reaper, according to the Codex. The Turians had 30-ish dreadnoughts at the start of the war, the other council races had less. There are at least a thousand Reapers. We can assume the 4 dreadnought rule already includes Thanix cannons since those figures would be based on the projections of the Reaper war and Thanix cannons had already been mass-produced by then. Put those numbers into a calculator and it makes a frowny face.

That's why you do not let a calculator fight the war for you. Seriously, this is not OGame.

The estimations were without Thanix if I remember correctly.

[Haargel]

Sion1138 wrote...

I guess that's why a dreadnought was shown blowing of a Reapers arm with a single shot.

Thought that was a Turian and Alliance cruiser.

Alliance held it's dreadnoughts back to protect the Crucible.

[Aloren]

Naerivar wrote...
That's why you do not let a calculator fight the war for you. Seriously, this is not OGame.

The estimations were without Thanix if I remember correctly.

Even without Thanix, it wouldn't change much... let's say a Thanix makes a dreadnought twice as efficient. Meaning you would only need two to take down a reaper. Great... but there are still at least a thousand reapers, and how many dreadnought ? 50 ? 100 ? Yeah, so instead of needing 40 victories in a row each, they would only need 20. Still a long shot..

Modifié par Aloren, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[riesenwiesel]

Does the codex say anything about how Asari dreadnoughts do against Reapers? At least they are the most advanced race in the galaxy... sadly you never see one of them firing its main gun.

[spiriticon]

Naerivar wrote...

That's why you do not let a calculator fight the war for you. Seriously, this is not OGame.

The estimations were without Thanix if I remember correctly.

The numbers are pretty important, come on.

You can't just close one eye and believe you can go RAMBO and expect to win. That's suicide strategy.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

flanny wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

That line from EDI during the Reaper IFF mission in ME2 seals the deal. A conventional victory would NEVER be possible! Period.

That is all. Nothing more to discuss. It's simply not possible. What we got in the refusal ending was the only realistic outcome.

read a codex before stating nonsense

Play the game before stating nonsense.

[Jayleia]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

That line from EDI during the Reaper IFF mission in ME2 seals the deal. A conventional victory would NEVER be possible! Period.

That is all. Nothing more to discuss. It's simply not possible. What we got in the refusal ending was the only realistic outcome.

Codex proves you wrong.  Palaven proves you wrong, Thessia proves you wrong, Rannoch.  The Cain and Thanix missiles prove you wrong, the Thanix cannon in ME2 proves you wrong.

You are ONLY proven right due to inconsistent writing that requires a deus ex machina.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

The Turian bomb?  I'm pretty sure it can be reproduced.

You're just gonna board a Reaper and install the bomb on it? This is another weapon that destroys planets. YOu can't just fire it around like pistols. You'd kill more of your own people through friendly fire than Reapers.

I'm not sure about using these megaweapons as arguments for a conventional victory. It's pretty unconventional, just replacing the Crucible with another Crucible like device. Worse, You'd be committing genocide on a scale far more than just  EDI and the Geth.

Besides, you could you know, just use the Crucible at low EMS if you want to obliterate everything in sight.

Just 'cause you say there'd be a lot of friendly fire doesn't make it so; there are ways to mitigate it.

And these aren't so much arguments for conventional victory as they're arguments for a victory without the Crucible/Catalyst and the dozen or so plot holes that go with it.

[The Angry One]

EDI often likes being wrong, like when she remarks that Reapers wouldn't find the Quarian immune system an issue for Reaperisation in ME3.
You know, when Harbinger said the exact opposite in ME2.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

That's why you do not let a calculator fight the war for you. Seriously, this is not OGame.

The estimations were without Thanix if I remember correctly.

The numbers are pretty important, come on.

You can't just close one eye and believe you can go RAMBO and expect to win. That's suicide strategy.

Pretty sure in a video game where a space marine, a retired cop, and an archaeologist kill hundreds if not thousands of half synthetic mutant monstrosities that's a reasonable strategy.

[Naerivar]

spiriticon wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

That's why you do not let a calculator fight the war for you. Seriously, this is not OGame.

The estimations were without Thanix if I remember correctly.

The numbers are pretty important, come on.

You can't just close one eye and believe you can go RAMBO and expect to win. That's suicide strategy.

Aloren wrote...

Even
without Thanix, it wouldn't change much... let's say a Thanix makes a
dreadnought twice as efficient. Meaning you would only need two to take
down a reaper. Great... but there are still at least a thousand reapers,
and how many dreadnought ? 50 ? 100 ? Yeah, so instead of needing 40
victories in a row each, they would only need 20. Still a long shot..

I'm not saying that there is a very large chance to win. Hell, I don't even know if it would be possible. But you can't just put all the numbers of both sites together and then cross out the same values. One thing all these people seem to forget is that not all Reapers are in the same place. You hardly fight them with 20,000 at a time.

As long as you can make use of the Relay Network (and we could in ME3) you can go to places where the Reaper density is low. I'd figure that a group of 20 dreadnoughts could easily take out 3 or 4 Reapers without too much counterdamage.

That is not even thinking about alternate strategies, making use of the Reapers inability to turn fast and keep up their shields. Hiding in asteroid fields, fling said asteroids at Reapers, invent new types of warfare that is better suited to get through a Reapers shield (when sovereign's  shield was down he was pretty much ended by a single shot of the Normandy).

I can even give you a way to guarentee that there will be a hell of a lot survivors for the next cycles. People who have a reasonable chance of immediatly starting preparing for the next invasion.

I'm not saying it's easy or even possible to beat the Reapers. but you shouldn't just stare blindly onto the numbers.

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

The Turian bomb?  I'm pretty sure it can be reproduced.

You're just gonna board a Reaper and install the bomb on it? This is another weapon that destroys planets. YOu can't just fire it around like pistols. You'd kill more of your own people through friendly fire than Reapers.

I'm not sure about using these megaweapons as arguments for a conventional victory. It's pretty unconventional, just replacing the Crucible with another Crucible like device. Worse, You'd be committing genocide on a scale far more than just  EDI and the Geth.

Besides, you could you know, just use the Crucible at low EMS if you want to obliterate everything in sight.

Just 'cause you say there'd be a lot of friendly fire doesn't make it so; there are ways to mitigate it.

And these aren't so much arguments for conventional victory as they're arguments for a victory without the Crucible/Catalyst and the dozen or so plot holes that go with it.

But the other endings have just as many plotholes as the Crucible one. And when I point them out you go 'yeah well space magic'

I might as well stick with the original plothole ridden ending.

[The Angry One]

spiriticon wrote...

But the other endings have just as many plotholes as the Crucible one. And when I point them out you go 'yeah well space magic'

I might as well stick with the original plothole ridden ending.

Bit of a generalised statement there. I've seen many fan endings that don't require even half the amount of handwaving and nonsense logic that the actual endings do.

[Tritium315]

spiriticon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

The Turian bomb?  I'm pretty sure it can be reproduced.

You're just gonna board a Reaper and install the bomb on it? This is another weapon that destroys planets. YOu can't just fire it around like pistols. You'd kill more of your own people through friendly fire than Reapers.

I'm not sure about using these megaweapons as arguments for a conventional victory. It's pretty unconventional, just replacing the Crucible with another Crucible like device. Worse, You'd be committing genocide on a scale far more than just  EDI and the Geth.

Besides, you could you know, just use the Crucible at low EMS if you want to obliterate everything in sight.

Just 'cause you say there'd be a lot of friendly fire doesn't make it so; there are ways to mitigate it.

And these aren't so much arguments for conventional victory as they're arguments for a victory without the Crucible/Catalyst and the dozen or so plot holes that go with it.

But the other endings have just as many plotholes as the Crucible one. And when I point them out you go 'yeah well space magic'

I might as well stick with the original plothole ridden ending.

What space magic and plot holes do the Turian Bomb or the Klendagon cannon entail?

Not to mention all the fan endings were created by FANS over the course of probably a lunch break as opposed to supposed professional writers over the course of 2 ****ing years while being paid very well for said writing. 

Modifié par Tritium315, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:57 .

[spiriticon]

The Angry One wrote...

Bit of a generalised statement there. I've seen many fan endings that don't require even half the amount of handwaving and nonsense logic that the actual endings do.

Sure. But really if you want to pick plotholes through it you probably could.

I don't believe that the Crucible is the perfect plot device,  but a straight up fight with the Reapers with the technology that we have at this moment in time is bordering on the silly.

You have to retcon their strength, knowledge, numerical and tactical and indoctrination advantage to create a ending storyline that is even mildly believable.

Not only that, but if they were weakened to that point then the Reapers would lose all credibility as a foe in the entire trilogy.

[DarkLordofDevon]

Can I point out the fact that a single battle isn't a war? We are human so we assume battle for Earth is something significant. If you consider the broader scale of the Reaper War it isn't. Even if the combined fleets managed to retake Earth from what is likely a sizable but fraction local Reaper force, the casualties taken would be astronomical.

Let's be generous and say the Reapers had... 25% of their forces at Earth. Massive overestimation I know but run with it. We take say... 50% casualties retaking Earth? Again, overly generous in favour of the attacking force but still. There is still 75% of the Reaper force still in the galaxy, vs the 50% now left of the force. Even reinforced by the remaining Turian, Salarian, Asari ships that didn't fight in the Earth battle that's still massive odds. Rebuilding lost ships will take time, time the Reapers won't give. Equally they cannot replenish their forces, but they have a larger amount of larger, better armed ships.

Every species the Reapers obliterate frees up more ships to concentrate on priority targets. Pavalen. Thessia. Earth. All constantly recieving Reaper reinforcements. And that's assuming they don't fall back, group and then concentrate their force 1 system at a time.

Discounting intervention by some super weapon or another, I personally do not favour the odds of victory against the Reapers.

Maybe we could win the battle conventionally, but could we win the war?

Modifié par DarkLordofDevon, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:06 .

[The Angry One]

It takes at least a decade for Reapers to fully harvest a major world, and there are hints that their forces are spread thin.
With their leadership destroyed the rest of the Reaper forces might be easier to take down. It might be a long and bloody war but it's doable.

Modifié par The Angry One, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[spiriticon]

Tritium315 wrote...

What space magic and plot holes do the Turian Bomb or the Klendagon cannon entail?

Not to mention all the fan endings were created by FANS over the course of probably a lunch break as opposed to supposed professional writers over the course of 2 ****ing years while being paid very well for said writing. 

Friendly fire, big **** off destructive power is used and the galaxy is meant to be OK? You gonna stop friendly fire with Space magic?

The ONLY ship that is capable of outmaneuvring the Reapers is the Normandy. That is why they are the point of the arrow. You fire a turian bomb at a reaper, the resulting explosion will take all the other dreadnoughts in the vicinity down.

The Reapers have collective intelligence, like the geth. You may outsmart one but the same plan won't work twice.

[v TricKy v]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Does the codex say anything about how Asari dreadnoughts do against Reapers? At least they are the most advanced race in the galaxy... sadly you never see one of them firing its main gun.

Nope we know nothing about them.
The Destiny Ascension is biggest and most powerful Dreadnought in the Galaxy and they upgraded it even further after the Geth attack but we still dont see it doing something useful *Sigh*

Modifié par v TricKy v, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:11 .

[The Angry One]

v TricKy v wrote...

riesenwiesel wrote...

Does the codex say anything about how Asari dreadnoughts do against Reapers? At least they are the most advanced race in the galaxy... sadly you never see one of them firing its main gun.

Nope we know nothing about them.
The Destiny Ascension is biggest and most powerful Dreadnought in the Galaxy and they upgraded it even further after the Geth attack but we still dont see it doing something useful *Sigh*

Then again we don't see any ships do much except for Alliance cruisers randomly throwing shots everywhere like it was a fireworks display.
Oh and remaining perfectly motionless so Reapers can fly up and hug them.

[spiriticon]

The Angry One wrote...

Then again we don't see any ships do much except for Alliance cruisers randomly throwing shots everywhere like it was a fireworks display.
Oh and remaining perfectly motionless so Reapers can fly up and hug them.

While it's perfectly ok for a Reaper to remain motionless while you fire a Turian bomb or Klendagon Cannon at them....

ugh...

[The Angry One]

spiriticon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Then again we don't see any ships do much except for Alliance cruisers randomly throwing shots everywhere like it was a fireworks display.
Oh and remaining perfectly motionless so Reapers can fly up and hug them.

While it's perfectly ok for a Reaper to remain motionless while you fire a Turian bomb or Klendagon Cannon at them....

ugh...

Since Reapers move slowly and can't turn for ****, what is the problem exactly?
Makes more sense than cruisers just sitting there and not firing their thanix cannons even when Reapers are right in front of them.

[spiriticon]

The Angry One wrote...

Since Reapers move slowly and can't turn for ****, what is the problem exactly?
Makes more sense than cruisers just sitting there and not firing their thanix cannons even when Reapers are right in front of them.

They move at FTL speeds dude.

The only time they are slow is when they are nearing a planet ready to do some harvesting, and in that situation you can't fire planet destructing weapons at them without hitting the damn planet.

Modifié par spiriticon, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .