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[TEWR]

So this is a repeat of a thread I created a while ago, but I wanted to post everything I can possibly think of in regards to the Dales. I don't want to leave any stone unturned, as it were. Any iota of information that might shed some light on the information.

There will be speculation, mind you. It's to be expected really. Also, wall of text incoming.

FIRST: A map of Orlais...



You can see that the Dales is right on the Fereldan border, on the other side of the Frostback Mountains. We can also see that Montsimmard has 2 cities between it and Halamshiral. We can also see that Val Chevin is across the Waking Sea from Halamshiral. As I recall, Val Chevin was one of the first cities the Dalish were reputed to have conquered when war broke out.

Second: The codex entry on the Dales, as told to us by Keeper Gish

You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation. We joined her rebellion against the Imperium, and our heroes died beside her, unmourned, in Tevinter bonfires.

But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home.

Halamshiral, "the end of the journey," was our capital, built out of the reach of the humans. We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

--"The End of the Long Walk," as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves

Look at this. It's known that the Elves began to rebuild their lost lore and culture in Halamshiral. I'll address this later on, as I now post the Chantry version of events.

Third: The Chantry's version of events.

Many forget that when Holy Andraste called out to the oppressed peoples to rise up, it was the elves who answered her first.

The humblest slaves of the Imperium became her vanguard, and when victory came, they were rewarded accordingly: They were given a land in what is now the south of Orlais, called the Dales.

A great exodus of elves undertook the journey to their new home, crossing ocean, desert, and mountain. Their city, the first elven city since the fabled Arlathan, was called Halamshiral. A new era had begun for the elves.

But the old era wasn't through with them. In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end. Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left to survive on goodwill alone.

From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

Now, I'm almost positive the Dalish Elf Warden can state that the bolded doesn't ever happen, in either the origin itself in discussion with Pol or with Leliana -- or both.

So it's stricken from the record, and is nothing more then propagandist lies spread by the Chantry/idiotic village folk.

Second, they posted Emerald Knights at their borders as a way to maintain their isolationist policies, refusing all contact with other people -- missionaries, traders, maybe even diplomats. Understandable really. They wanted to be left alone for the sole purpose of rebuilding a culture that had been all but destroyed by the Imperium.

They then say that the Elves assaulted Red Crossing, but I don't know the validity of this. No one does. But let's look at an excerpt of The Long Walk codex entry.

We called our journey the Long Walk, for that was what it was. We walked with what little we had on our backs. Some walked without shoes, for they had none. Whole families, women with infants, the old and young alike--all of them made their way across the land on foot. And if one of our people could no longer walk, we carried him, or sometimes left him behind.

Many perished along the way. Some died of exhaustion, others simply gave up and fell by the wayside. A great number were set upon by human bandits, even though we had few possessions. Along the way, a growing number began to bemoan the decision to leave Tevinter. "At least in Tevinter," they said, "we had food, and water, and shelter. What do we have here? Nothing but the open sky and the prospect of the never-ending road ahead." Some turned back toward Tevinter. But most of us continued walking.

 

I've posited before that the attack on Red Crossing could've simply been an attack made by a fringe element of the Dales which prompted an overreaction by Orlais and the Chantry, or worse yet: a ploy by Orlais using non-Dalish/City Elves as a means to call for a war against the Dales. Doubly worse would be if that ploy was authorized by the Chantry because the Dales not only had free Mages, but free Mages ruling.

Bear in mind that the Dales survived the Second Blight, whereas much of Orlais' fertile land was destroyed. So it'd make sense that Orlais would want to take back the fertile land within their borders, politically speaking.

Now, look at the bolded. Some of the Elves were left behind, fell behind, or turned towards Tevinter. One could reasonably assume that if they walked a long way and gave up, they wouldn't want to walk another long trek back to Tevinter when a city just happens to be nearby.

So maybe some moved to a city that eventually came under the authority of Orlais. And thus my speculation doesn't sound so farfetch'd really. 

Granted, I'm using speculation to make speculation sound more plausible, but it is a possibility.

Anyway.... um... where was I. I'm trying to type out a lot here, so I may forget where I was. 

Ah okay! I was talking about Red Crossing. Well I covered that, sort of. But let me continue. From the Dragon Age Wiki page on the Dales:

Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby

The Elven army was near Montsimmard, correct? So why must we assume they didn't care, if they were near the city itself? Here's the kicker folks: The Elves wanted to recreate their lost culture.

Remember that in one codex entry the Elves of Arlathan would debate for decades before reaching a decision.

They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshipped their gods for months at a time. Decisions were made after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. .

Now, I'd posit that the reason they didn't help fight the Second Blight -- if that's really true -- is because they were debating on whether they should assist the human lands.

Would it be a smart thing to do? **** no, it'd be one of the most idiotic things ever. But it is possible that they did that, because the Elves of the Dales wanted to recreate their lost culture. Long years debating topics of interest is one part of that culture.

The presence of the Elven army near Montsimmard tells me that they had finally come to the decision that they should help, as was their duty. Might've been late to the party then, but hey...

It should've been obvious that was the action they needed to take, but nevertheless. Remember that tensions didn't start until after the Second Blight was finished and these opinions about the Elves formed.

I believe that's all regarding the Fall of the Dales itself that bears posting and rambling. If through all this you were able to understand what I was saying, have a cookie. You've earned it.

Discuss. My intent is for this to be a thread devoted to the discussion and analysis of Elven lore and history, so we can see where the truth is*.

After all, truth often lies somewhere in the middle, no?

*Dwarven Thread coming soon!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Fallstar]

Interesting read. It doesn't make sense to me for the elves of the dales to attack a human settlement. What did they have to gain from such an attack? Ownership of an extra village. Not exactly high on the list of priorities. Whereas they have everything to lose.

Trying to rebuild the culture of Arlathan would have taken a long time, and the elves would have desired peace whilst doing so; it doesn't make sense to put something you are trying to rebuild at risk. There is no motive for the elves to attack that settlement, or indeed initiate any hostilities against humans.

On the other hand, the chantry has plenty of motive. Arlathan was a very powerful civilization. Such a civilization rising again, with beliefs deemed heretical by the Andrastian chantry, is a significant threat to chantry dominance. Similar to Petrice's fear and hatred of the Qun. But since the elves had been granted the Dales as a reward for helping Andraste, it would be difficult to take that land back without the Chantry coming off as oppressors. So they decide to spread rumours of human sacrifices to elven gods, to instill fear of the elves into the general populace. Not dissimilar to what happened with the mages.

I don't know much about what happened at Red Crossing, whether it was definitely elves who attacked the village, or if we have only the chantry's records to suggest that. If so, then it is possible that the Chantry ordered the Templars to attack the village to provide the spark needed to justify an Exalted March. 

Looking forward to the Dwarven thread as well. 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:47 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've posited before that the attack on Red Crossing could've simply been an attack made by a fringe element of the Dales which prompted an overreaction by Orlais and the Chantry, or worse yet: a ploy by Orlais using non-Dalish/City Elves as a means to call for a war against the Dales. Doubly worse would be if that ploy was authorized by the Chantry because the Dales not only had free Mages, but free Mages ruling.

If we take into account the Dalish Warden's codex about the Dales:

"We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery. But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."
 
Perhaps the attack on Red Crossing was in response to the templars? As we know from Merrill, the templars hunt down elven mages, which is why they don't perform magic out in the open. We will probably never know for certain, but I suppose we can speculate.

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

Interesting read. It doesn't make sense to me for the elves of the dales to attack a human settlement. What did they have to gain from such an attack? Ownership of an extra village. Not exactly high on the list of priorities. Whereas they have everything to lose.

Trying to rebuild the culture of Arlathan would have taken a long time, and the elves would have desired peace whilst doing so; it doesn't make sense to put something you are trying to rebuild at risk. There is no motive for the elves to attack that settlement, or indeed initiate any hostilities against humans.

Indeed. I can't see much of a reason for them to have actually assaulted the village, for those reasons precisely. Not much to gain, a lot to lose.

Now, as I said above tensions were flaring as a result of the Elves' inaction towards the Second Blight, as the human lands perceived it to be. So I can't see the Dalish launching an attack as the aggressors, but I can sort of see them retaliating against some sort of grievance against them.

Maybe Templars as LobselVith8 suggested? Or maybe village folk that did some crime towards the Elven community?

Still, I'm leaning more towards my fringe element/Orlesian-Chantry ploy theory.

On the other hand, the chantry has plenty of motive. Arlathan was a very powerful civilization. Such a civilization rising again, with beliefs deemed heretical by the Andrastian chantry, is a significant threat to chantry dominance. Similar to Petrice's fear and hatred of the Qun. But since the elves had been granted the Dales as a reward for helping Andraste, it would be difficult to take that land back without the Chantry coming off as oppressors. So they decide to spread rumours of human sacrifices to elven gods, to instill fear of the elves into the general populace. Not dissimilar to what happened with the mages.

Agreed.


 

Looking forward to the Dwarven thread as well. 

It'll be a while before I start on that one. It'll probably be in regards to the Primeval Thaig and my theories on that.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If we take into account the Dalish Warden's codex about the Dales:

"We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery. But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."
 
Perhaps the attack on Red Crossing was in response to the templars? As we know from Merrill, the templars hunt down elven mages, which is why they don't perform magic out in the open. We will probably never know for certain, but I suppose we can speculate.

Templars are also a possibility. Perhaps in DA3 we'll learn some Chantry secrets.

[Wulfram]

Two powerful nations are near each other. One has an ideology that says that the inhabitants of the other taint them by mere contact, the other is expansionist and has an ideology that requires the spread of their faith across the planet.

Likely the Elves did attack Red Crossing, likely they also held themselves provoked, likely also that some in Orlais welcomed the excuse to start the war, as perhaps did some in the Dales. Conflict was basically inevitable, the precise triggers seem fairly irrelevant to me.

The true crime was not the start of the war, but it's ending, which was nothing short of Genocide. Though given their ideology, I do wonder if the Dalish would have acted much better - certainly any land they seized would have had to be cleansed of humans.

I wouldn't wholly dismiss the "dark rumours". The stuff about human sacrifice is likely wild speculation, but on a tense border, and given the inherent Dalish hostility to humans, I doubt their hands were wholly clean. Given how the Dalish act towards those who stray into their path now, would the Emerald Knights merely return those humans who had strayed across the borders unharmed? And would the humans always agree with where the Dalish placed those borders?

For completeness, this is what the City Elves say of these events - repeating the story of the sacking of Red Crossing, but also implying that it was provoked

There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best we could. We called the first city Halamshiral, "end of the journey," and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be, this time patrolled by an order of Emerald Knights charged with watching the borders for trouble from humans.

But you already know that something went wrong. A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries.

[IanPolaris]

I am of the opinion that war between expansionist Orlais and isolationist Dales was inevitable and frankly having Orlais being sacked and burned would have been no less than that nation deserved for all the harm it did not just to the Dales but to ALL other neighboring nations.

All that said, I am extremely skeptical that the Dales actually authorized any attack on Red Crossing. There was too much to lose and too little to gain (it's not like the Dalish wanted to rule over a bunch of Shems...quite the opposite really).

I think one of two things happened:

1. A boarder incident spiraled out of control, and Orlais seized the opportunity to create a Causus Belli against the Dales. Unlike the elves, Orlais had a LOT to gain by starting a war including much needed farmland.

2. (And this is what I think) It was a false flag attack. I think that Orlais (or at least an Orlesian noble) specifically hired and outfitted a bunch of city-elves (or elves that didn't go to the Dales) with a bunch of Dalish Gear and told them to sack Red Crossing. This is far from unknown. Germany in 1939 dressed it's own troops in Polish uniforms to start the war using an identical pretext.

Finally, in the game, it is CONFIRMED that the Dalish don't and never hve condoned or allowed human sacrifice to the creators, not even the Dread Wolf. The idea to the Dalish is extremely insulting and repulsive. That doesn't mean Dalish hands are clean but let's recognize overblown chantry propaganda for what it is, shall we?

-Polaris

[Daerog]

I think Orlais pressured the Dales. There is talk of skirmishes on the border, probably just racial tension, but it was allowed to spiral out of control. So, instead of bringing people in to stop the fighting and bring back peace, Orlais just decides to take offense to the skirmishes and start a fight with the Dales.

The elves start winning, Orlais cries foul and spins the truth (not hard, since elf isolation caused much speculation) to make it sound like the Chantry is under attack and not just Orlais, exalted march, and Orlais has more land.

Just my guess.

[dragonflight288]

As for Red Crossing, I'm reminded of a completely different game.

Anyone play Kingdom Under Fire: Crusaders? On the first Xbox?

Playing as Gerald, an officer in the army of Hironeidan, you are sent on patrol to attend mass of some big religious city-state (not that different from the Chantry in all honesty) and we come across a city that had been burned to the ground, all inhabitants were murdered. No survivors to give any form of eye-witness account. The damage to the town is also a few days old. But Gerald runs into a patrol of Dark Elves from the kingdom of Vellond and the two squads enter combat before the dark elves retreat.

The human kingdom of Hirondeiden blames the dark elves for the attack and declare war on not only Vellond but also Hexter (an ally of Vellod) in an effort to retake the Holy Land, so to speak.

But in Kingdom under Fire: Heroes, we play as different generals and leaders. And we see a commander under the order of the Patriarch (equivalent of the Divine in Dragon Age) set the stage to declare war on Vellond and Hexter so they could retake the Holy Land. This man we play as, orders the attack on the town Gerald in the previous game discovered burned to the ground. Walter (the guy who ordered the down destroyed) also makes sure that every single man, woman, and child is killed to prevent any witnesses. As soon as his men finish the slaughter, they leave as quickly as possible (they weren't even in Hirondeiden legally, they're from a completely different country.)

In Dragon Age, we have the Chantry claim the Dalish attacked red crossing, but as others have pointed out, the Dalish had very little to gain. The only way I can think of the Dalish attacking Red Crossing was if the templars came from there, and killed/raped/destroyed a lot and some Dalish attacked in a mad quest for revenge (similar to the Dalish who wants to hunt the werewolf and doesn't care that he isn't one now.)

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for Red Crossing, I'm reminded of a completely different game.

Anyone play Kingdom Under Fire: Crusaders? On the first Xbox?

Playing as Gerald, an officer in the army of Hironeidan, you are sent on patrol to attend mass of some big religious city-state (not that different from the Chantry in all honesty) and we come across a city that had been burned to the ground, all inhabitants were murdered. No survivors to give any form of eye-witness account. The damage to the town is also a few days old. But Gerald runs into a patrol of Dark Elves from the kingdom of Vellond and the two squads enter combat before the dark elves retreat.

The human kingdom of Hirondeiden blames the dark elves for the attack and declare war on not only Vellond but also Hexter (an ally of Vellod) in an effort to retake the Holy Land, so to speak.

But in Kingdom under Fire: Heroes, we play as different generals and leaders. And we see a commander under the order of the Patriarch (equivalent of the Divine in Dragon Age) set the stage to declare war on Vellond and Hexter so they could retake the Holy Land. This man we play as, orders the attack on the town Gerald in the previous game discovered burned to the ground. Walter (the guy who ordered the down destroyed) also makes sure that every single man, woman, and child is killed to prevent any witnesses. As soon as his men finish the slaughter, they leave as quickly as possible (they weren't even in Hirondeiden legally, they're from a completely different country.)

In Dragon Age, we have the Chantry claim the Dalish attacked red crossing, but as others have pointed out, the Dalish had very little to gain. The only way I can think of the Dalish attacking Red Crossing was if the templars came from there, and killed/raped/destroyed a lot and some Dalish attacked in a mad quest for revenge (similar to the Dalish who wants to hunt the werewolf and doesn't care that he isn't one now.)

The scenario you paint is very likely (and IMHO I believe that's what actually happened in large part).  As I said before, most people forget these days that Germany outfitted it's own soldiers with Polish uniforms and had them attack German border towns to create exactly this sort of pretext.  The difference in that case was that no one trusted Germany's Leader anymore and anyone that could count on their fingers and toes knew precisely who had to gain from a war and who didn't....and it wasn't Poland.  The other difference is that the Dales had the bad manners to actually be winning their war against Orlais.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

Elves also eat. Which means they need farm land too, if they're to support cities such as Halamshiral. They can cleanse it of the taint of inconvenient shem'lem occupiers easily enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

Overall, I feel you did a good job bringing in relevant lore for this discussion. Good job, and it helps support your points.

However, there is one I would question you on.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But the old era wasn't through with them. In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end. Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left to survive on goodwill alone.

From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

Now, I'm almost positive the Dalish Elf Warden can state that the bolded doesn't ever happen, in either the origin itself in discussion with Pol or with Leliana -- or both.

So it's stricken from the record, and is nothing more then propagandist lies spread by the Chantry/idiotic village folk.

Is this your assertion of fact, or an assumption held for the purpose of the argument? The second works well, but the first does not because the counter-argument source (the Dalish Elf Warden) can not be considered an unbiased or even an authoritative source.

Besides that not even the elves know just what their culture entailed in practice, grasping at mere figments, that the Dalish reject such assertions has as little to do with objective history as the Chantry's own claims. Cultural revisionism is already a not-so-subtle theme of the Dalish: as with many cultural reclamation groups, they're  rebuilding the lost culture as they wish to see it as much as they are on what it actually was.

The Dalish are hardly generous with self-admitted flaws of their lost culture, even the aspects they are aware of, and they've little reason to do so: Dalish culture is based upon the ideal of a superior lost culture, and remembering the flaws would diminish that. Would you, the observor, really be surprised if the Dalish denied such things even if they were true?

My point isn't that the Dales or the ancient elvish culture really was a Tevinter with Elvish characteristics, and that it's death was for the betterment of all. My point is that even if the Dales did practice dark arts and human sacrifice, their descendents would likely still deny it, even if they were aware with it.

And, as is rather the point of the Dalish and Elvish lore, pretty much everyone is unaware of what the ancient Elves really were like.



So as I said, if you're striking through the Chantry perspective for the purpose of an argument, that's more than fine. It doesn't change the overall context that much. But if you're rejecting it as an assertion of fact, on the basis of someone who learned their history in a inarguably unobjective culture with poor historical records, that's a bit weaker and leaves you open to ignorring other instigators of the conflict.

[Dean_the_Young]

As for the 'it doesn't make sense for the elves to attack humans, they had nothing to gain' argument, that's an argument based entirely on a presumption that the elves share our distant, context-lacking, retrospective-heavy hindsight. Most issues look exceedingly obvious in hindsight when you know the results that followed one path.

The Elvish perspective is one we simply do not know. Even if, for the purpose of the example alone, we presume that they did attack Red Crossing deliberately, that doesn't mean it was an irrational or gainless action from their perspective. There are large numbers of potential factors they considered that we are unaware of: previous provocations, territory disputes, overall political dynamics across the countries, even different perspectives on who was favored by the balance of power. The Elves could have thought they were much stronger than they actually were: the political context of the time could have left whether an Exalted March was even feasible: the Orlesian government could have had a reputation for being too aggressive (inspiring retaliation so as not to seem weak and be forced to give concessions) or for being too conciliatory (allowing opportunist/aggressive elvish factions to not expect retaliation of such scale). Even the argument of 'they had a lot to lose' presumes that total conquest of the dales was viewed as a serious threat when other forms of costs could have been far more plausible and not involve the total destruction of the polity: even on the 'total loss' end, the Dales could simply have been turned into a vassal state, or been forced to allow Maker worship, or had the territory dispute decided against them, and many other things that don't end in the destruction of the state. And that would be if they lost at all, when there are many other forms of conflict other than total warfare.

It's pretty absurd to expect others to share a retrospective outlook when we don't even know what their perspective was. It undermines all arguments along the lines of 'they were unlikely to do this because it makes no sense.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:31 .

[Wulfram]

Yes. The Chantry had never launched an Exalted March before, after all. And the Elves appear to have had the advantage in a war against Orlais alone.

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As for the 'it doesn't make sense for the elves to attack humans, they had nothing to gain' argument, that's an argument based entirely on a presumption that the elves share our distant, context-lacking, retrospective-heavy hindsight. Most issues look exceedingly obvious in hindsight when you know the results that followed one path.

Full stop.  Every piece of evidence we have both in the codex entries and in the game play itself strongly suggest that the modern elves including the Dalish are essentially humans with pointed ears.  They have the same psychology and the same wants and needs as humans and so the issue of "what would it gain the Dalish" is a perfectly valid one even from a human perspetive.  That may not be so with the ancient Arlathan, but the Dalish were slaves for so long that they're essentially human in outlook and pyschology....more than enough to put the kybosh on what you are suggesting.

Elves are NOT so alien that they are exempt from the "nothing to gain" argument.  Not even the Dalish.

The fact that the Dalish had everything to lose and nothing to gain by causing a war with Orlais should tell you that that the Chantry version of events stinks like a pile of week old fish.  It's the same reason why no one believe that Poland really attacked Germany in 1939 even though the German footage of the 'attack" was actually very convincing in isolation.  Everyone that could count beyond their fingers and toes knew that Poland needed a war with Germany like it needed a hole in the head...and thus there was no way that Poland would have started it.

Same. Same.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So as I said, if you're striking through the Chantry perspective for the purpose of an argument, that's more than fine. It doesn't change the overall context that much. But if you're rejecting it as an assertion of fact, on the basis of someone who learned their history in a inarguably unobjective culture with poor historical records, that's a bit weaker and leaves you open to ignorring other instigators of the conflict.

The OP is rejecting the bolded line as assertion of fact because we KNOW as a matter of fact that that line is wrong.  It is blatent propaganda (like allied propaganda of WWI of German soldiers making soup out of Belgian Babies).  It's so over the top, you can't take it seriously.  Futhermore we as player CAN be Dalish and we DO get to see the Dalish culture first hand, and we KNOW that the Dalish have never, ever done anything remotely like blood sacrifice.  Talk to Pol when you do the Dalish Warden background sometime. 

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

So, to throw this thought out there, what if Orlais hadn't been able to mobilize the Andrastian nations?

An obvious answer would have been a inconclusive war... which could range anywhere from very expensive all the same to not that expensive at all for the Elves, or even have new gains in its own right (think War of 1812 political effects for the US and/or Canada).

Orlais' ability to mobilize an Exalted March also could have been doubtful if, say, there was a powerstruggle within Chantrydom about who the leader of the faithful was, or how much power they had. While the ultimate result was Orlais, and lots, it could well have been far less clear at the time. Put a couple of hundred years behind it, and Anora ascending the throne in DAO would be 'obvious' and leave people wondering why there was any debate at all.


Orlais' influence over the Chantry is a large part of why it was a super-power, but Orlesian influence over the Chantry wasn't necessarily a given at the time: there could have been serious contenders, or even an internal Chantry power struggle over the relationship between church and state. That would be the sort of thing that would easily factor in to any Elvish decisions vis-a-vis Orlais.

[Dean_the_Young]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So as I said, if you're striking through the Chantry perspective for the purpose of an argument, that's more than fine. It doesn't change the overall context that much. But if you're rejecting it as an assertion of fact, on the basis of someone who learned their history in a inarguably unobjective culture with poor historical records, that's a bit weaker and leaves you open to ignorring other instigators of the conflict.

The OP is rejecting the bolded line as assertion of fact because we KNOW as a matter of fact that that line is wrong.  It is blatent propaganda (like allied propaganda of WWI of German soldiers making soup out of Belgian Babies).  It's so over the top, you can't take it seriously.  Futhermore we as player CAN be Dalish and we DO get to see the Dalish culture first hand, and we KNOW that the Dalish have never, ever done anything remotely like blood sacrifice.  Talk to Pol when you do the Dalish Warden background sometime. 

-Polaris

Except we do know that some Dalish have utilized blood magic: Merrill. And while Merrill might personally not kill others for it, we also know that it's an enormously slippery slope.


But while we know that, you've made it more than apparent in the past you're not interested in anything less than your absolutes. I've no interest in discussing this or any topic with you in particular given your history, but please feel free to respond to whatever subsequent posts you wish: I simply won't respond.

[IanPolaris]

If Orlais hadn't gotten the Chantry to declare an exalted march, it would have been curtains for Orlais (which IMHO would have been a good thing for Thedas as a whole). It wasn't an inconclusive war. The Dalish were cleaning Orlais' clock and were in the process of seizing Val Royaleux. If the Chantry doesn't intervene, then Orlais is history and probably reverts to small warring feudal states. This of course would be devestating to the Chantry that needed the back of a strong compliant empire to "spread the chant".

As a guess, given that the Dalish want as little human contact as possible since the Dalish believe that human contact causes them to die of old age sooner (and there may be some basis in that belief), I don't believe that the Dalish would have kept any significant human lands other than a few tactically important areas to better keep humans away in the future. Instead I expect that the Dalish would have demolished and ground to the dust any human civilization and then set up 'client' or 'tributary' human kingdoms as a bufferzone (much like Soviet Eastern Europe during the Cold War).

That too would have been a disaster from the PoV of the Chantry. If I fault the Dalish it's their unwillingness to recognize the political power of the Chantry and in so failing, pushing the Chantry too far. The Dalish should have offered a peace/truce without attacking Val Royaleux in hindsight....but I do understand the Dalish PoV. Their new homeland was situated next to a dangerous viper (Orlais) and the Dalish were determined that if it were to be war, then they would cut off that viper's (Orlais') head for good. At least that's my take on the Dalish PoV.

-Polaris

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So as I said, if you're striking through the Chantry perspective for the purpose of an argument, that's more than fine. It doesn't change the overall context that much. But if you're rejecting it as an assertion of fact, on the basis of someone who learned their history in a inarguably unobjective culture with poor historical records, that's a bit weaker and leaves you open to ignorring other instigators of the conflict.

The OP is rejecting the bolded line as assertion of fact because we KNOW as a matter of fact that that line is wrong.  It is blatent propaganda (like allied propaganda of WWI of German soldiers making soup out of Belgian Babies).  It's so over the top, you can't take it seriously.  Futhermore we as player CAN be Dalish and we DO get to see the Dalish culture first hand, and we KNOW that the Dalish have never, ever done anything remotely like blood sacrifice.  Talk to Pol when you do the Dalish Warden background sometime. 

-Polaris

Why can't you take it seriously?  Baby soup might be unbelievable... unless you live in a world where such things are fairly common. 

But don't misunderstand!  My point isn't that the ancient Dalish practiced blood magic and human sacrifice but rather that, in Thedas, accusations of such are not "so over the top" that they can simply be dismissed.

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except we do know that some Dalish have utilized blood magic: Merrill. And while Merrill might personally not kill others for it, we also know that it's an enormously slippery slope.

So have chantry mages too (see Adralla) and the Chantry regularly uses bloodmagic.  Not only that but Merrill is ostracised by her clan for that choice.  Zathrien would have been a better example, but blood magic ==/== evil magic regardless of what the chantry claims.

But while we know that, you've made it more than apparent in the past you're not interested in anything less than your absolutes. I've no interest in discussing this or any topic with you in particular given your history, but please feel free to respond to whatever subsequent posts you wish: I simply won't respond.

This smells like a personal attack.  You might want to watch that.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

General User wrote...

Why can't you take it seriously?  Baby soup might be unbelievable... unless you live in a world where such things are fairly common. 

To my knowledge there is only one culture that regularly practices blood sacrifice:  Tevinter   That culture is (rightly) shunned, so you can't say it's all that common. 

But don't misunderstand!  My point isn't that the ancient Dalish practiced blood magic and human sacrifice but rather that, in Thedas, accusations of such are not "so over the top" that they can simply be dismissed.

Yes but that's the OP's point.  While the average peasent in Thedas is fairly ignorant and thus can easily fall victim to such tactics, as players we have privledged information.  Since we can BE a Dalish Hunter, we KNOW as players that the Chantry claim is a lie.  We know that as a fact.  Thus we CAN dismiss that line as players when looking at the situation objectively (just like even reasonable allied people dismissed the baby-factory claims as crude...but effective...propaganda in WWI).

That line was meant to convince the ignorant, and we as players because of our unique perspective aren't ignorant.  We literally do know better.

-Polaris

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...

General User wrote...

Why can't you take it seriously?  Baby soup might be unbelievable... unless you live in a world where such things are fairly common. 

To my knowledge there is only one culture that regularly practices blood sacrifice:  Tevinter   That culture is (rightly) shunned, so you can't say it's all that common.

Not at all!  Tevinter may be the most prominent example, but they are hardly the only one.  If I recall correctly, various clan/tribal societies are mentioned as having the practice.  In any case, even in Ferelden and the Free Marches, such are far from unheard of.

IanPolaris wrote...

General User wrote...

But don't misunderstand!  My point isn't that the ancient Dalish practiced blood magic and human sacrifice but rather that, in Thedas, accusations of such are not "so over the top" that they can simply be dismissed.

Yes but that's the OP's point.  While the average peasent in Thedas is fairly ignorant and thus can easily fall victim to such tactics, as players we have privledged information.  Since we can BE a Dalish Hunter, we KNOW as players that the Chantry claim is a lie.  We know that as a fact.  Thus we CAN dismiss that line as players when looking at the situation objectively (just like even reasonable allied people dismissed the baby-factory claims as crude...but effective...propaganda in WWI).

That line was meant to convince the ignorant, and we as players because of our unique perspective aren't ignorant.  We literally do know better.

-Polaris

We know the Dalish don't currently actively abduct people and sacrifce them to their gods or drain them for their magic powers.  But even the Dalish don't know what they did hundreds of years ago. 

Dean (as usual) is right.  The Dalish of 37:Dragon have a culture based around an idealized past.  It's natural, and even expected that they would minimize, or even ignore outright the ugly pieces of their own history.

Consider also: since the both Chantry itself, as well as the various nations that fought under the Chantry's banner, have actual written records from the time of the war with the Dales, and all the Dalish have are legends and stories passed via word-of-mouth, one might actually be doing well to lend more weight to the Chantry's version.

Modifié par General User, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:36 .

[IanPolaris]

General User wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

General User wrote...

Why can't you take it seriously?  Baby soup might be unbelievable... unless you live in a world where such things are fairly common. 

To my knowledge there is only one culture that regularly practices blood sacrifice:  Tevinter   That culture is (rightly) shunned, so you can't say it's all that common.

Not at all!  Tevinter may be the most prominent example, but they are hardly the only one.  If I recall correctly, various clan/tribal societies are mentioned as having the practice.  In any case, even in Ferelden and the Free Marches, such far from unheard of.

The only possible other example might be the Haven cultists but...no....they didn't perform blood sacrifice.  They simply killed strangers.  Blood sacrifice/cannibalism/etc is a very easy charge to make against "those not like us" and in a society with poor communications is almost impossible to disprove.  That's why it's so effective even into the early modern era.  It dehumanizes the 'enemy' or 'other guy'.  However, if anyone can come up with an actual current society in Thedas that practices blood sacrifice OTHER than Tevinter (and not just claims by others), I'd like to hear it.

IanPolaris wrote...

General User wrote...

But don't misunderstand!  My point isn't that the ancient Dalish practiced blood magic and human sacrifice but rather that, in Thedas, accusations of such are not "so over the top" that they can simply be dismissed.

Yes but that's the OP's point.  While the average peasent in Thedas is fairly ignorant and thus can easily fall victim to such tactics, as players we have privledged information.  Since we can BE a Dalish Hunter, we KNOW as players that the Chantry claim is a lie.  We know that as a fact.  Thus we CAN dismiss that line as players when looking at the situation objectively (just like even reasonable allied people dismissed the baby-factory claims as crude...but effective...propaganda in WWI).

That line was meant to convince the ignorant, and we as players because of our unique perspective aren't ignorant.  We literally do know better.

-Polaris

We know the Dalish don't currently actively abduct people and sacrifce them to their gods.  But even the Dalish don't know what they did hundreds of years ago. 

The Dalish DO know that.  The Dalish keep written records and Dalish keepers live for a long time (well over 100 years) and Dalish lifespans seem to be increasing as they have less and less contact with humans.  Don't let the trappings fool you, it hasn't been THAT LONG since the Dalish lost their second homeland (about 700 years) and one keeper (Zathrien) lived half that time in a single lifespan.

Thus the Dalish DO know what they did 700 years ago at least in regards to something major like blood sacrifice.  There have been a lot less Dalish Generations than human generations after all.

Dean (as usual) is right.  The Dalish of 37:Dragon have a culture based around an idealized past.  It's natural, and even expected that they would minimize, or even ignore outright the ugly pieces of their own history.

There is nothing to suggest that the Dalish EVER practice blood sacrifice and if they did, why would they stop?  It would be just one more way of "getting even" with humans.  Also see above.  There haven't been that many Dalish generations.

I would also add that the claim of blood sacrifice is an extraordinary claim that should require extraordinary evidence to support it.

Consider also: since the both Chantry itself, as well as the various nations that fought under the Chantry's banner, have actual written records from the time of the war with the Dales, and all the Dalish have are legends and stories passed word-of-mouth, one might actually be doing well to lend more weight to the Chantry's version.

Um no.  The Dalish have written records.  The Keepers share that knowledge with each other and there are many instances in the game where written elvish is referred to...and used...and not just by ancient Arlathan.  Don't let the Native American appearence fool you.  The chantry has every reason to lie about what happend to the Dales.  The Dalish have much less reason to lie because they are wandering violent vagrants (according to the Shemlen) that no one will believe anyway....and the Dalish don't particular care if they do or don't.

In short, the Chantry verson smells like week old fish.  That doesn't mean the Dalish haven't 'sanitized' their own stories (I am sure they have), but "forgetting" about mass blood sacrifice?

Just no.  In fact it was one thing that the elves joined with Andrasted to fight (against Tevinter).

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

It's not like even our Chantry sources call it anything more than rumours. So I don't see much reason to believe it's more than that

I wouldn't call it propaganda, because that implies a cynical attempt to deliberately mislead. It's the sort of thing scared people are likely to come up with when faced with a hostile, isolationist and alien culture on their doorstep, particularly when memories of Tevinter have conditioned them to expect that from "pagan" religions.

Actually, the Chantry sources are remarkably light on the idea that the Dalish used evil magic, particularly considering modern Dalish culture is Mage-led. If there was any real evidence that they did use blood magic, you'd have thought it would be put front and center. After all, use of blood magic would be, to (non-tevinter) Andrastean minds, a clear cut justification for war even without Red Crossing.

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...
The only possible other example might be the Haven cultists but...no....they didn't perform blood sacrifice.  They simply killed strangers.  Blood sacrifice/cannibalism/etc is a very easy charge to make against "those not like us" and in a society with poor communications is almost impossible to disprove.  That's why it's so effective even into the early modern era.  It dehumanizes the 'enemy' or 'other guy'.  However, if anyone can come up with an actual current society in Thedas that practices blood sacrifice OTHER than Tevinter (and not just claims by others), I'd like to hear it.

I just gave you two examples: Ferelden and the Free Marches.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Dalish DO know that.  The Dalish keep written records and Dalish keepers live for a long time (well over 100 years) and Dalish lifespans seem to be increasing as they have less and less contact with humans.  Don't let the trappings fool you, it hasn't been THAT LONG since the Dalish lost their second homeland (about 700 years) and one keeper (Zathrien) lived half that time in a single lifespan.

Zathrien was a crazy mage who terrorized the human beings misfortunate enough to cross his path.

IanPolaris wrote...
Thus the Dalish DO know what they did 700 years ago at least in regards to something major like blood sacrifice.  There have been a lot less Dalish Generations than human generations after all.

Since human beings often do not have an accurate appreciation of events that occurred as little as a single generation ago (especially where thorny racial and cultural identity issues are involved), there isn't really anything here that supports your position.

IanPolaris wrote...
There is nothing to suggest that the Dalish EVER practice blood sacrifice and if they did, why would they stop?  It would be just one more way of "getting even" with humans.  Also see above.  There haven't been that many Dalish generations.

There was indeed something to suggest that the Dalish practiced blood sacrifice: they were accused of doing so by their neighbors. 

IanPolaris wrote...
I would also add that the claim of blood sacrifice is an extraordinary claim that should require extraordinary evidence to support it.

There's blood magic and ritual sacrifice all over the place in Thedas.  Claims of such would be anything but extraordinary.

IanPolaris wrote...
Um no.  The Dalish have written records.  The Keepers share that knowledge with each other and there are many instances in the game where written elvish is referred to...and used...and not just by ancient Arlathan.  Don't let the Native American appearence fool you.  The chantry has every reason to lie about what happend to the Dales.  The Dalish have much less reason to lie because they are wandering violent vagrants (according to the Shemlen) that no one will believe anyway....and the Dalish don't particular care if they do or don't.

And, on the other side of that coin, the Dalish have every reason to lie about what happened to the Dales. 

You're right the Dalish aren't particularly interested in what non-Dalish think about them, but they care very much about what they think of themselves.  You see, the Dalish wouldn't be trying to convince other nations/races, they'd be trying to convince themselves.

And while the various Dalish clans may have assorted bits and pieces of their written history that they've been able to salvage or retain, but by their own definition and admission, the last thing they have is a comprehensive or even clear picture of their own past.

IanPolaris wrote...
In short, the Chantry verson smells like week old fish.  That doesn't mean the Dalish haven't 'sanitized' their own stories (I am sure they have), but "forgetting" about mass blood sacrifice?
Just no.  In fact it was one thing that the elves joined with Andrasted to fight (against Tevinter).

It's a romantic notion to think that all the Dalish wanted from the fall of Tevinter was their freedom.  But the truth is: after so long as slaves, it makes sense that some elves would decide that they would rather just be the masters.

Modifié par General User, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:15 .