384 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Dwarves? Smart? Excuse me while I point at the caste system and laugh.

There's nothing to suggest that dwarves are inherently stupid as a race, but their cultural system is a pile of moral and practical failure.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[General User]

Like Varric said to Cassandra, maybe it's not as simple as you imagine.

Remember, the Dales coexisted for 300 years with their human neighbors. If during any sizable portion of that time Chantry missionaries were openly active, then it is likely that many elves converted, forming a religious minority of Dalish Andrastians. If, in the years immediately prior to the Fall of the Dales, a hardline elven faction came to power (as elven actions, ie expelling foreigners, closing borders, attacking neighboring villages) seem to suggest. Then it is easily possible that the Templars entered the Dales to protect the native Andrastians from persecution.

Modifié par General User, 23 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[Xilizhra]

If during any sizable portion of that time Chantry missionaries were openly active, then it is likely that many elves converted, forming a religious minority of Dalish Andrastians.

Less than likely. I suspect that's what the isolationism part was supposed to prevent. I don't believe a word of this scenario.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
So since Japan cut off all contact with the outside world China or America or Britian could have up and invaded them and that would have been ok just because they were isolationists?

You have no evidence the Dales invaded. The elves say Orlais attacked first, Orlais says the Dales attacked first. Red Crossing might have occured, it also might not have been first. Maybe first was an attack on the Dalish by humans in Red Crossing, then the elves defended themselves.

You still seem to think Might Makes Right. Because Orlais won you believe their version of the story.

I'm speaking of practical matters rather than moral ones. The elves practice a violent isolationism, refuse all offers of friendship and acts as if humans are a disease. Obviously, animosity is going to grow.
Morally, does that make it right for a human nation to invade them? No but the elves shouldn't be surprised they make enemies.

The elves themselves claim the Chantry started the conflict by sending templars. Even if they did, it could have been simply to protect the missionaries and enforce their wishes of crossing the border.
The proper reaction to this is increasing border patrol or stop being so intolerant and just let them in. If the elves attacked Red Crossing over this, they weren't right either.

That is assumption, and a false one at that. Orlais has invaded every neighbor they ever had (minus Anderfels since a huge mountain range is in the way) over nothing. They invade Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches out of IMPERIALISM. Why would it be difficult to accept that their Imperialist attitudes also extended to the Dale's?

"Or stop being so intolerant"
Wow, really? YOU are going to say they are intolerant for limiting contact with humans because their religion demands it? Way to sound tolerant yourself.

The elves were wrong to DEFEND themselves? Seriously? If the humans attack the Dales the elves shouldn't respond? You should write propoganda for Orlais.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
The March was called when Orlais realized they were losing.

Yes. Your point being.

So despite the fact there is no evidence saying the elves wanted to destroy the white tower, and given that they DIDNT destroy it, you still believe that was their goal? If they'd sacked Val Royeoux then nothing stood between them and the white tower, yet there is no mention, even by the Orliesans, of elves attacking the white tower. You say they were stopped? Who stopped them? They conquered Val Royeoux, there was no-one to stop them.

You want to argue that the elves wanted to destroy the white city but couldnt, while at the same time argueing that they conquered val royeaux in that attempt. Kinda seems like you want a cake and want to eat it too.

We actually have no idea what the elves did to the infrastructure of Orlais or its population. As far as we know, they killed every human they came across and burned the Grand Cathedral which was later restored. As I've pointed out, DAO is biased towards the elves.
I'm simply arguing that given the racism most elves exhibit and what Orlais did in return to the Dales, an attempt at cultural genocide is a possibility.

[The Night Haunter]

General User wrote...

Like Varric said to Cassandra, maybe it's not as simple as you imagine.

Remember, the Dales coexisted for 300 years with their human neighbors. If during any sizable portion of that time Chantry missionaries were openly active, then it is likely that many elves converted, forming a religious minority of Dalish Andrastians. If, in the years immediately prior to the Fall of the Dales, a hardline elven faction came to power (as elven actions, ie expelling foreigners, closing borders, attacking neighboring villages) seem to suggest. Then it is easily possible that the Templars entered the Dales to protect the native Andrastians from persecution.

Actually the evidence suggests the elves were left alone for quite some time while the Humans licked their wounds. THEN sent in missionaries. So if the elves were successful isolationists for 200 years, then suddenly the humans came knocking and got angry when refused that would favor the elves (If that scenario occured, which I find more likely).

Also any elf who converted would likely have been cast out of the Dales. If any Dalish elf converts they are abandoned and sent to live in the city, so it seems likely that would have applied to the Dales as well, meaning no sizable minority could have existed.

[Xilizhra]

And how is DAO objectively biased towards elves? Unduly so?

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
The March was called when Orlais realized they were losing.

Yes. Your point being.

So despite the fact there is no evidence saying the elves wanted to destroy the white tower, and given that they DIDNT destroy it, you still believe that was their goal? If they'd sacked Val Royeoux then nothing stood between them and the white tower, yet there is no mention, even by the Orliesans, of elves attacking the white tower. You say they were stopped? Who stopped them? They conquered Val Royeoux, there was no-one to stop them.

You want to argue that the elves wanted to destroy the white city but couldnt, while at the same time argueing that they conquered val royeaux in that attempt. Kinda seems like you want a cake and want to eat it too.

We actually have no idea what the elves did to the infrastructure of Orlais or its population. As far as we know, they killed every human they came across and burned the Grand Cathedral which was later restored. As I've pointed out, DAO is biased towards the elves.
I'm simply arguing that given the racism most elves exhibit and what Orlais did in return to the Dales, an attempt at cultural genocide is a possibility.

Umm, really? Had they burned the great cathedral we would have heard about it. And the Orliesans wouldn;t have just conquered the dales they would have killed every elf.
So considering we never heard anything like that (which would have been a HUGE event and thus a codex or 2 definitely would have told us) I find that hard to believe.

You are also basing your elven racism on MODERN elves. Were the Dales that racist? Who knows, but probably not. After all humans helped set them free, gave them land, and had thus far honored their agreement. After being betrayed by the humans (from their point of view) they would definately grow more bitter and racist toward humans, but that would be after the Dales fell, not before.

Basically your entire arguement is supposition with no evidence to support it and some actual evidence against it.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
The March was called when Orlais realized they were losing.

Yes. Your point being.

My point is that this is an example of Orleisian Imperialism, they wanted to conquer the dales, and only agreed to split the spoils AFTER they realized they couldn;t do it on their own.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
That is assumption, and a false one at that. Orlais has invaded every neighbor they ever had (minus Anderfels since a huge mountain range is in the way) over nothing. They invade Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches out of IMPERIALISM. Why would it be difficult to accept that their Imperialist attitudes also extended to the Dale's?

First of all, the Chantry is not Orlais. Their involvement in political conflicts is marginal at best.
Orlais attempted to coexist with the Dales for over 300 years. Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not agressive acts.
The Dalish are also violent and known to kill anyone who gets too close to their camps. Why would it be difficult to accept this would extend to neighboring villages? Even in the elven version, no one speaks of Orlais invading. Only of the Chantry being forceful in their conversions.

Wow, really? YOU are going to say they are intolerant for limiting contact with humans because their religion demands it? Way to sound tolerant yourself.

Their religion doesn't demand it. They just have this belief contact with humans kill them which I believe is simply an excuse to justify racism.
Should I really be tolerant of a people who constantly tells me and mine that we are intellectually and culturally inferior? "Quick children"

The elves were wrong to DEFEND themselves? Seriously? If the humans attack the Dales the elves shouldn't respond? You should write propoganda for Orlais.

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Umm, really? Had they burned the great cathedral we would have heard about it. And the Orliesans wouldn;t have just conquered the dales they would have killed every elf.
So considering we never heard anything like that (which would have been a HUGE event and thus a codex or 2 definitely would have told us) I find that hard to believe.

You are also basing your elven racism on MODERN elves. Were the Dales that racist? Who knows, but probably not. After all humans helped set them free, gave them land, and had thus far honored their agreement. After being betrayed by the humans (from their point of view) they would definately grow more bitter and racist toward humans, but that would be after the Dales fell, not before.

Basically your entire arguement is supposition with no evidence to support it and some actual evidence against it.

As I've said, the game is quite biased towards the elves. I didn't know they had sacked Val Royeaux until I read it in the wiki.
The humans are probrably more merciful than the elves, I don't see them building alienages for the people of Orlais.

We know for a fact that the elves of the Dales were isolationism to a ridiculous extent and the racial slur "Quick Children" has existed since the days of Arlathan. Elven have always been incredibly racist.

[The Hierophant]

MisterJB wrote...

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

Tbh , i find the Orlesian account of the event highly suspect because Orlais has a history of imperialism, and the Dales is a strategical location to launch an invasion of Fereldan from.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 août 2012 - 08:52 .

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish are also violent and known to kill anyone who gets too close to their camps. Why would it be difficult to accept this would extend to neighboring villages? Even in the elven version, no one speaks of Orlais invading. Only of the Chantry being forceful in their conversions.

Again, not only is this not shown to be true, but we've only ever seen the Dalish after the Dales were wiped out.

Should I really be tolerant of a people who constantly tells me and mine that we are intellectually and culturally inferior? "Quick children"

They call dwarves "Stone children." I don't think "children" is intended to be inherently derogatory.

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

And I very much doubt that they did.

[Xilizhra]

As I've said, the game is quite biased towards the elves. I didn't know they had sacked Val Royeaux until I read it in the wiki.

So it's the game's fault that you didn't read the codex?

The humans are probrably more merciful than the elves, I don't see them building alienages for the people of Orlais.

\\
We didn't see the ****ing conflict.

[General User]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

General User wrote...

Like Varric said to Cassandra, maybe it's not as simple as you imagine.

Remember, the Dales coexisted for 300 years with their human neighbors. If during any sizable portion of that time Chantry missionaries were openly active, then it is likely that many elves converted, forming a religious minority of Dalish Andrastians. If, in the years immediately prior to the Fall of the Dales, a hardline elven faction came to power (as elven actions, ie expelling foreigners, closing borders, attacking neighboring villages) seem to suggest. Then it is easily possible that the Templars entered the Dales to protect the native Andrastians from persecution.

Actually the evidence suggests the elves were left alone for quite some time while the Humans licked their wounds. THEN sent in missionaries. So if the elves were successful isolationists for 200 years, then suddenly the humans came knocking and got angry when refused that would favor the elves (If that scenario occured, which I find more likely).

What makes you think so? 

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Also any elf who converted would likely have been cast out of the Dales. If any Dalish elf converts they are abandoned and sent to live in the city, so it seems likely that would have applied to the Dales as well, meaning no sizable minority could have existed.

There may have been a time where the elves were more enlightened and tolerant than we see them in the games.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
That is assumption, and a false one at that. Orlais has invaded every neighbor they ever had (minus Anderfels since a huge mountain range is in the way) over nothing. They invade Ferelden, Nevarra, the Free Marches out of IMPERIALISM. Why would it be difficult to accept that their Imperialist attitudes also extended to the Dale's?

First of all, the Chantry is not Orlais. Their involvement in political conflicts is marginal at best.
Orlais attempted to coexist with the Dales for over 300 years. Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not agressive acts.
The Dalish are also violent and known to kill anyone who gets too close to their camps. Why would it be difficult to accept this would extend to neighboring villages? Even in the elven version, no one speaks of Orlais invading. Only of the Chantry being forceful in their conversions.

Because for 300 years the Dalish left the human villages alone? Your own arguement. Missionaries CAN BE violent, just look at New Spain during the 1500's. You just assume that the Andrastian missionaries weren't. But lets look at Rivain, the Andrastians kille THOUSANDS of Rivaini after expelling the Qunari because they didnt convert back to the Maker. Umm... that sound svery violent to me.

QUOTE:
The early Chantry was a thing of both might and right. An early scribe
described it as “the gleaming sight of iron blades with the warming
sound of holy song.” Those who converted to the Chantry’s beliefs found
it their mission to spread Andraste’s word. Thus did the Exalted March
begin anew, the Chant of Light spreading across the world… by force, if
necessary.

from
http://social.biowar...Chantry_History

From BIOWARES official wiki. That doesnt sound peaceful either.

As for Orlais and the Chantry being seperate, how seperate was Rome from the affairs of whatever nation the Pope came from? Not very is a good answer, the pope often helped his home nation when conflicts broke out.

MisterJB wrote...

Wow, really? YOU are going to say they are intolerant for limiting contact with humans because their religion demands it? Way to sound tolerant yourself.

Their religion doesn't demand it. They just have this belief contact with humans kill them which I believe is simply an excuse to justify racism.
Should I really be tolerant of a people who constantly tells me and mine that we are intellectually and culturally inferior? "Quick children"

The elves were wrong to DEFEND themselves? Seriously? If the humans attack the Dales the elves shouldn't respond? You should write propoganda for Orlais.

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

Again you ASSUME that they started the war at all, and that if they did it was over missionaries. There is evidence that Humans attacked the elves then the elves responded. Maybe the humans weren't part of Orlais, maybe they were a fringe element, but that is still an attack. If there are terrorists in a nation and that nation does nothing to stop these terrorists from attacking its neighbors they shouldnt be surprised when their neighbors take care of matters themselves.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

First of all, the Chantry is not Orlais. Their involvement in political conflicts is marginal at best.
Orlais attempted to coexist with the Dales for over 300 years. Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not agressive acts.
The Dalish are also violent and known to kill anyone who gets too close to their camps. Why would it be difficult to accept this would extend to neighboring villages? Even in the elven version, no one speaks of Orlais invading. Only of the Chantry being forceful in their conversions.

Their religion doesn't demand it. They just have this belief contact with humans kill them which I believe is simply an excuse to justify racism.
Should I really be tolerant of a people who constantly tells me and mine that we are intellectually and culturally inferior? "Quick children"

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor, it's seat of power is in Orlaisa and IIRc it even supported Orlais during its occupation of Ferelden. We've got quite a bit fo evidence that the Chantry is biased towards Orlais and would certainly side with it against the Dales, escpeially since the Dales rejected it.

And we still don't know it was peaceful missionarism. You can repeat that a thousand times, that still doesn't make it a proven fact.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Umm, really? Had they burned the great cathedral we would have heard about it. And the Orliesans wouldn;t have just conquered the dales they would have killed every elf.
So considering we never heard anything like that (which would have been a HUGE event and thus a codex or 2 definitely would have told us) I find that hard to believe.

You are also basing your elven racism on MODERN elves. Were the Dales that racist? Who knows, but probably not. After all humans helped set them free, gave them land, and had thus far honored their agreement. After being betrayed by the humans (from their point of view) they would definately grow more bitter and racist toward humans, but that would be after the Dales fell, not before.

Basically your entire arguement is supposition with no evidence to support it and some actual evidence against it.

As I've said, the game is quite biased towards the elves. I didn't know they had sacked Val Royeaux until I read it in the wiki.
The humans are probrably more merciful than the elves, I don't see them building alienages for the people of Orlais.

We know for a fact that the elves of the Dales were isolationism to a ridiculous extent and the racial slur "Quick Children" has existed since the days of Arlathan. Elven have always been incredibly racist.

Humans are more merciful than elves? Thats why the humans slaughtered thousands of Rivaini AFTER the war ended? Thats why Elves are FORCED to live in alienages and cannot become a real part of society?

As for the racism, if someone insults you is alright for you to beat that person up? If so grow a thicker skin.

[The Night Haunter]

Fiacre wrote...

The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor, it's seat of power is in Orlaisa and IIRc it even supported Orlais during its occupation of Ferelden. We've got quite a bit fo evidence that the Chantry is biased towards Orlais and would certainly side with it against the Dales, escpeially since the Dales rejected it.

And we still don't know it was peaceful missionarism. You can repeat that a thousand times, that still doesn't make it a proven fact.

QFT. in the first DA Novel the Grand Cleric ACTIVELY helps repress the Fereldens.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Again, not only is this not shown to be true, but we've only ever seen the Dalish after the Dales were wiped out.

Brother Genitivi admits that had he was lucky he was not killed, the Warden's friend wants to kill the three humans they encountered, then there is Vellana. The Warden was just lucky he wasn't attacked imediatelly.

We have accounts of isolationism that dates back to Arlathan.

They call dwarves "Stone children." I don't think "children" is intended to be inherently derogatory.

Even Lanaya admits this is arrogance from their part.

Xilizhra wrote...
We didn't see the ****ing conflict.

Humans don't consider contact with elves to be a death sentence.

Also, a Human character can not properly defend his position in the Dalish Camp. They say "The Dales" but we can never say "Red Crossing".

[General User]

The Hierophant wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

Tbh , i find the Orlesian account of the event highly suspect because Orlais has a history of imperialism, and the Dales is a strategical location to launch an invasion of Fereldan from.

But is it an "Orlesian account" really?  I mean, it was an Exalted March, most every human nation in Andrastian Thedas fought under the Chantry's banner.  They'll all have their own perspectives on the matter.  That none of them differ dramatically is I think quite telling.

You can take it with as large a grain of salt as you please, but given the diverse sourcing and actual preserved written records, the "Orlesian version" has much more credence than the Dalish's.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Again, not only is this not shown to be true, but we've only ever seen the Dalish after the Dales were wiped out.

Brother Genitivi admits that had he was lucky he was not killed, the Warden's friend wants to kill the three humans they encountered, then there is Vellana. The Warden was just lucky he wasn't attacked imediatelly.

We have accounts of isolationism that dates back to Arlathan.

They call dwarves "Stone children." I don't think "children" is intended to be inherently derogatory.

Even Lanaya admits this is arrogance from their part.

Xilizhra wrote...
We didn't see the ****ing conflict.

Humans don't consider contact with elves to be a death sentence.

Also, a Human character can not properly defend his position in the Dalish Camp. They say "The Dales" but we can never say "Red Crossing".

Really Velana? After he tribe is massacred and evidence planted to indicate humans were responsible you think she should have sent the humans cookies and flowers? She even admits she was wrong when you show her the evidence.

The fact that your character cannot antagonize the dalish while surrounded by a hundred of them seems silly to you? Perhaps you should have had an option to just attack them then get killed have to reload a save? Would that have made you happy?

[Xilizhra]

Brother Genitivi admits that had he was lucky he was not killed, the Warden's friend wants to kill the three humans they encountered, then there is Vellana. The Warden was just lucky he wasn't attacked imediatelly.

Neither the Warden nor Hawke was attacked, Genitivi was also not attacked (and is clearly biased on the matter anyway), Tamlen wasn't acting in an official capacity, and Velanna had been tricked into attacking the wrong people, in addition to being an exile at the time.

We have accounts of isolationism that dates back to Arlathan.

Not violence.

Even Lanaya admits this is arrogance from their part.

Probably the meaning's been corrupted.

Humans don't consider contact with elves to be a death sentence.

And?

Also, a Human character can not properly defend his position in the Dalish Camp. They say "The Dales" but we can never say "Red Crossing".

There's no logical reason for a human to bear a grudge over that. A sort of arrogant self-righteousness, sure, but not a grudge.

[The Night Haunter]

General User wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

Tbh , i find the Orlesian account of the event highly suspect because Orlais has a history of imperialism, and the Dales is a strategical location to launch an invasion of Fereldan from.

But is it an "Orlesian account" really?  I mean, it was an Exalted March, most every human nation in Andrastian Thedas fought under the Chantry's banner.  They'll all have their own perspectives on the matter.  That none of them differ dramatically is I think quite telling.

You can take it with as large a grain of salt as you please, but given the diverse sourcing and actual preserved written records, the "Orlesian version" has much more credence than the Dalish's.

The Exalted Marched occured well into the war, so the START of the war is indeed an Orleisan account, because no other nation was involed. Do you believe the Orleisen account of why they were 'forced to invade' fereldan? Or do you accept that as blatant Imperialism?

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor, it's seat of power is in Orlaisa and IIRc it even supported Orlais during its occupation of Ferelden.

The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor and while they tend to favor Orlais so long as it spreads the faith, templars do not attack countries that are already Andrastian such as Ferelden.
The Grand Cleric of Denerim supported the occupation because she did not believe Maric could suceed and wanted peace for the people of Ferelden. Once the orlesian governor began to opress them more and more and Maric's power grew, she switched sides.