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[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

Fiacre wrote...
The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor, it's seat of power is in Orlaisa and IIRc it even supported Orlais during its occupation of Ferelden.

The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor and while they tend to favor Orlais so long as it spreads the faith, templars do not attack countries that are already Andrastian such as Ferelden.
The Grand Cleric of Denerim supported the occupation because she did not believe Maric could suceed and wanted peace for the people of Ferelden. Once the orlesian governor began to opress them more and more and Maric's power grew, she switched sides.

Templars didnt attack the Dales the Orliesans did so I fail to see your point.

The Grand Cleric of Denerim switches sides when it is convienent, but during the occupation and even during the original war, she aided the Orleisens.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Really Velana? After he tribe is massacred and evidence planted to indicate humans were responsible you think she should have sent the humans cookies and flowers? She even admits she was wrong when you show her the evidence.

Anyone with two brain cells could have put together that was a set up. She is just hateful which she even admits.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

Brother Genitivi admits that had he was lucky he was not killed, the Warden's friend wants to kill the three humans they encountered, then there is Vellana. The Warden was just lucky he wasn't attacked imediatelly.

Velanna was exiled for her agression towards humans. and yes, neither Tamlen nor Mahariel are acting in official capacity -- in fact, I vaguely remember Marethary approving of sparing the humans, but I could be wrong. And both the Warden and hawke are asked what business they have with the Dalish but allowed into the camp when they give a satisfying answer. Considering that the dalish seem to usually be approached to force them to leave, kidnap their children and for generally intolerant behaviour from the humans, I'm not suprised that they're wary of humans coming to them off.

Pay attention to the humans' side during the Pilgrim Path quest. They might have been innocent of the crime Velanna accused them of, but they were they to drive the Dalish out and rather racist.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Really Velana? After he tribe is massacred and evidence planted to indicate humans were responsible you think she should have sent the humans cookies and flowers? She even admits she was wrong when you show her the evidence.

Anyone with two brain cells could have put together that was a set up. She is just hateful which she even admits.

Lol, so if you came home found your family murdered and found elven weapons in the house you would think, "Hey its a set up, it was really the darkspawn who everyone believes to be mindless, they are just trying to trick me into thinking it was the elves"?

I didn;t think so.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

Fiacre wrote...
The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor, it's seat of power is in Orlaisa and IIRc it even supported Orlais during its occupation of Ferelden.

The Chantry was founded by an Orlesian Emperor and while they tend to favor Orlais so long as it spreads the faith, templars do not attack countries that are already Andrastian such as Ferelden.
The Grand Cleric of Denerim supported the occupation because she did not believe Maric could suceed and wanted peace for the people of Ferelden. Once the orlesian governor began to opress them more and more and Maric's power grew, she switched sides.

"The current Age was not meant to be the Dragon Age. Throughout the
last months of the Blessed Age, the Chantry was preparing to declare the
Sun Age, named for the symbol of the Orlesian Empire, which at that time sprawled over much of the south of Thedas and controlled both Ferelden and what is now Nevarra. It was to be a celebration of Orlesian imperial glory.
But as the rebellion in Ferelden reached a head and the Battle of River Dane was about to begin, a peculiar event occurred: a rampage, the rising of a dreaded high dragon.
Dragons had been thought practically extinct since the days of the
Nevarran dragon hunts, and they say that to see this great beast rise
from the Frostbacks
was both majestic and terrifying. As the rampage began and the high
dragon decimated the countryside in its search for food, the elderly
Divine Faustine II abruptly declared the Dragon Age.
Some say the Divine was declaring support for Orlais in the
battle against Ferelden, since the dragon is an element of the Dufayel
family heraldry of King Meghren,
the so-called Usurper King of Ferelden. Be that as it may, the high
dragon's rampage turned towards the Orlesian side of the Frostback
Mountains, killing hundreds and sending thousands more fleeing to the
northern coast. The Fereldan rebels won the Battle of River Dane,
ultimately securing their independence." -- from the codex entry "Thedas calendar".

It wasn't just the Grand Cleric.

[General User]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

General User wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The elves were wrong to start a war over peaceful missionarism.

Tbh , i find the Orlesian account of the event highly suspect because Orlais has a history of imperialism, and the Dales is a strategical location to launch an invasion of Fereldan from.

But is it an "Orlesian account" really?  I mean, it was an Exalted March, most every human nation in Andrastian Thedas fought under the Chantry's banner.  They'll all have their own perspectives on the matter.  That none of them differ dramatically is I think quite telling.

You can take it with as large a grain of salt as you please, but given the diverse sourcing and actual preserved written records, the "Orlesian version" has much more credence than the Dalish's.

The Exalted Marched occured well into the war, so the START of the war is indeed an Orleisan account, because no other nation was involed.

Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had done much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

Do you believe the Orleisen account of why they were 'forced to invade' fereldan? Or do you accept that as blatant Imperialism?

Blatant imperialism.  But these are different situations separated by some seven centuries.  Just because a generation or so before the start of the games the Orlesians were up to some shenanigans, I'm not going to condemn them for their entire history.

Modifié par General User, 23 août 2012 - 09:23 .

[Fiacre]

General User wrote...

Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

They were elves. Look at all the blatant racism against the elves you see everywhere; even Lelian engages in causal racism until your elf PC calls her out on that, and one of her good friends in her DLC was an elven mage.

Modifié par Fiacre, 23 août 2012 - 09:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Of course you're right about that. I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats. That doesn't make sense unless the elves had done much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

Of course it makes sense. All the humans need is racism, which was already culturally ingrained by Tevinter. They didn't shed all aspects of the Imperium's thinking.

[General User]

Fiacre wrote...

General User wrote...

Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

They were elves. Look at all the blatant racism against the elves you see everywhere; even Lelian engages in causal racism until your elf PC calls her out on that, and one of her good friends in her DLC was an elven mage.

Humans don't seem to have any problem living an working with dwarves.  The hostility between elves and human is more than simple "blatant racism".  There's bad blood there.  And "racism" is just as much a symptom as a cause.

[The Night Haunter]

General User wrote...
Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

Do you believe the Orleisen account of why they were 'forced to invade' fereldan? Or do you accept that as blatant Imperialism?

Blatant imperialism.  But these are different situations separated by some seven centuries.  Just because a generation or so before the start of the games the Orlesians were up to some shenanigans, I'm not going to condemn them for their entire history.

Maybe the Dalish did have problems with other nations, but it could also just be Nevarran and Ferelden believe in spreading the Makers Word that compelled them to invade the Dales. Just like England invaded the middle east to spread the word of God rather than any reason relating directly to English/Middle Eastern relations.

And the Ferelden Imperialism could be different, or it could be the same. You are free to believe that, but given everything we know about Orlais I find it very easy to believe they were Imperialists, even back then

In 3:25 Towers, the armies of Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium joined with the Grey Wardens to end the Third Blight. However, the victorious armies proceeded to occupy the territories they had liberated from the darkspawn. Nevarra was taken by Orlais, and only regained independence in 3:65 Towers.
-From the wiki site

Shows Orliesian imperialism not long after the Dales were conquered. Not hard to imagine the same think barely a 100 years earlier.

[MisterJB]

[quote]ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Because for 300 years the Dalish left the human villages alone? Your own arguement. Missionaries CAN BE violent, just look at New Spain during the 1500's. You just assume that the Andrastian missionaries weren't. But lets look at Rivain, the Andrastians kille THOUSANDS of Rivaini after expelling the Qunari because they didnt convert back to the Maker. Umm... that sound svery violent to me.[/quote]
The Chantry can be violent, that is fact. Another fact is that attempt peaceful convertion first and only attack if they feel threatened.
Had those first missionaries been allowed entry much bloodshed could have been avoided. Once the templars were involved, it's a possibility there was violence involved.
Even if there was, Red Crossing is not the Chantry.

[quote]As for Orlais and the Chantry being seperate, how seperate was Rome from the affairs of whatever nation the Pope came from? Not very is a good answer, the pope often helped his home nation when conflicts broke out. [/quote]
Orlais is not Rome and the Pope is not the Divine.
Obviously, the Chantry can't allow "heathens" to destroy its home nation but its involvement in political conflicts between Andrastian nations is marginal.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]
Again you ASSUME that they started the war at all, and that if they did it was over missionaries. There is evidence that Humans attacked the elves then the elves responded. Maybe the humans weren't part of Orlais, maybe they were a fringe element, but that is still an attack. If there are terrorists in a nation and that nation does nothing to stop these terrorists from attacking its neighbors they shouldnt be surprised when their neighbors take care of matters themselves.

[/quote]
What evidence? What both sides tell us is that elves attacked Red Crossing. Only the elves use the templars as an excuse.

And by taking care of the matters themselves you mean attacking the neighbor nation, sack its capital, etc.

[The Hierophant]

General User wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Tbh , i find the Orlesian account of the event highly suspect because Orlais has a history of imperialism, and the Dales is a strategical location to launch an invasion of Fereldan from.

But is it an "Orlesian account" really?  I mean, it was an Exalted March, most every human nation in Andrastian Thedas fought under the Chantry's banner.  They'll all have their own perspectives on the matter.  That none of them differ dramatically is I think quite telling.

You can take it with as large a grain of salt as you please, but given the diverse sourcing and actual preserved written records, the "Orlesian version" has much more credence than the Dalish's.

(late in responding) iirc that  Red Crossing was not witnessed by the other nations of Thedas who had only participated in the war after Val Royeax was sacked.

At the bolded i do that to both sides of story, but the Orlesian records of the conflict can still be tainted by propagandic bias, kind of like how we see no Orlesian documents of the abuse they inflicted on the Fereldans.

[The Night Haunter]

General User wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

General User wrote...

Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

They were elves. Look at all the blatant racism against the elves you see everywhere; even Lelian engages in causal racism until your elf PC calls her out on that, and one of her good friends in her DLC was an elven mage.

Humans don't seem to have any problem living an working with dwarves.  The hostility between elves and human is more than simple "blatant racism".  There's bad blood there.  And "racism" is just as much a symptom as a cause.

But with Dwarves the Tevinter traded instead of conquering, because sending armies underground would have resulted in massacres, the dwarves had a huge empire and could defend it.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
It wasn't just the Grand Cleric.

Like I said, marginal support. You are talking about naming Ages.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Lol, so if you came home found your family murdered and found elven weapons in the house you would think, "Hey its a set up, it was really the darkspawn who everyone believes to be mindless, they are just trying to trick me into thinking it was the elves"?

I didn;t think so.

"Hey, why would the elves leave perfectly good weapons lying around thus revealing their guilt? This doesn't make any sense."

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Lol, so if you came home found your family murdered and found elven weapons in the house you would think, "Hey its a set up, it was really the darkspawn who everyone believes to be mindless, they are just trying to trick me into thinking it was the elves"?

I didn;t think so.

"Hey, why would the elves leave perfectly good weapons lying around thus revealing their guilt? This doesn't make any sense."

"Wait; the elves, being clearly in power, have nothing to fear from other humans or elves finding out about this, unless I make them fear."

[Fiacre]

Naming an entire age in a celebration of Orlais' Imperial Glory? Seems to be a pretty big deal to me.

And where is your proof that those bloody missionaries were non aggressive at first and how does the Chantry have the right to keep sending them if the elves say "Nope, not interested"? They don't have that right. If the elves weren't interested in conversion, than the right and tolerant thing to do would have been to stop pestering them, not going so far as to send *soldiers*.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Because for 300 years the Dalish left the human villages alone? Your own arguement. Missionaries CAN BE violent, just look at New Spain during the 1500's. You just assume that the Andrastian missionaries weren't. But lets look at Rivain, the Andrastians kille THOUSANDS of Rivaini after expelling the Qunari because they didnt convert back to the Maker. Umm... that sound svery violent to me.

The Chantry can be violent, that is fact. Another fact is that attempt peaceful convertion first and only attack if they feel threatened.
Had those first missionaries been allowed entry much bloodshed could have been avoided. Once the templars were involved, it's a possibility there was violence involved.
Even if there was, Red Crossing is not the Chantry.

As for Orlais and the Chantry being seperate, how seperate was Rome from the affairs of whatever nation the Pope came from? Not very is a good answer, the pope often helped his home nation when conflicts broke out.

Orlais is not Rome and the Pope is not the Divine.
Obviously, the Chantry can't allow "heathens" to destroy its home nation but its involvement in political conflicts between Andrastian nations is marginal.

MisterJB wrote...

Again you ASSUME that they started the war at all, and that if they did it was over missionaries. There is evidence that Humans attacked the elves then the elves responded. Maybe the humans weren't part of Orlais, maybe they were a fringe element, but that is still an attack. If there are terrorists in a nation and that nation does nothing to stop these terrorists from attacking its neighbors they shouldnt be surprised when their neighbors take care of matters themselves.

What evidence? What both sides tell us is that elves attacked Red Crossing. Only the elves use the templars as an excuse.

And by taking care of the matters themselves you mean attacking the neighbor nation, sack its capital, etc.

Quote;
2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais.
Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red
Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have
committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales, but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.

-From wiki

NUMEROUS border skirmishes. Not just the elves up and attacked.

As for why the humans allowed the elves to live in peace for 300 years.

The second blight occured in 1:5 i think and lasted almost a century. Kinda hard to be imperialistic when your existence is threatened.

And no I don't mean attacking Orlies, I mean Red Crossing. Terrorists were doubtless using that city as a base to launch attacks against the Dales. If there were numerous conflicts the the closest city would be the logical base. The Elves took the town to try and stop the attacks, not to attack Orlies. After that is when Orlais declared war and invaded the Dales. Note here they actually invaded the Dales BEFORE the elves pushed them back, and sacked Val Royeaux.

Quote:
However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry,
which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear
and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human
sacrifice
-Wiki

So the chantry spread rumors and fearmongering against the elves? Sounds like they were preparing for Orliasian imperialism.

Though if you want to argue against this actual evidence, be my guest, but all the real evidence we have is on our side of the line,while your arguements are based off pure speculation.

Modifié par ghostmessiah202, 23 août 2012 - 09:39 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
"Wait; the elves, being clearly in power, have nothing to fear from other humans or elves finding out about this, unless I make them fear."

Because humans just loooove having angry elves after them

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Lol, so if you came home found your family murdered and found elven weapons in the house you would think, "Hey its a set up, it was really the darkspawn who everyone believes to be mindless, they are just trying to trick me into thinking it was the elves"?

I didn;t think so.

"Hey, why would the elves leave perfectly good weapons lying around thus revealing their guilt? This doesn't make any sense."

LOL, really? After yOUR FAMILY is murdered you think logically? No hormones go off in your body out of your control and you dont think emotionally? You must be one cold person then...

[General User]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

General User wrote...
Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

Do you believe the Orleisen account of why they were 'forced to invade' fereldan? Or do you accept that as blatant Imperialism?

Blatant imperialism.  But these are different situations separated by some seven centuries.  Just because a generation or so before the start of the games the Orlesians were up to some shenanigans, I'm not going to condemn them for their entire history.

Maybe the Dalish did have problems with other nations, but it could also just be Nevarran and Ferelden believe in spreading the Makers Word that compelled them to invade the Dales. Just like England invaded the middle east to spread the word of God rather than any reason relating directly to English/Middle Eastern relations.

And the Ferelden Imperialism could be different, or it could be the same. You are free to believe that, but given everything we know about Orlais I find it very easy to believe they were Imperialists, even back then

In 3:25 Towers, the armies of Orlais and the Tevinter Imperium joined with the Grey Wardens to end the Third Blight. However, the victorious armies proceeded to occupy the territories they had liberated from the darkspawn. Nevarra was taken by Orlais, and only regained independence in 3:65 Towers.
-From the wiki site

Shows Orliesian imperialism not long after the Dales were conquered. Not hard to imagine the same think barely a 100 years earlier.

"[T]erritories they had liberated from the darkspawn", huh?  You mean largely depopulated, almost certainly lawless, blight lands?  I'll tell you what, if I were the Emperor of Orlais, I would have had my victorious armies occupy those territories too, for humanitarian as well as practical reasons.  Depending on the situation, forty years is not actually that long a time.

Remember, there's no set form imperialism has to take.  Just because something may be considered "imperialism" from one angle or another, doesn't make it a bad thing.

Modifié par General User, 23 août 2012 - 09:47 .

[Fiacre]

Whatever Velanna's reason for believing the humans were at fault (and again, she was exiled for intense hatred and aggressiveness towards humans), she genuinely thought that the humans had slaughtered her "clan" and kidnapped Seranni (and considering what usually happens to kidnapped Dalish, certainly to pretty, female Dalish...). It is only after you show her the trinket the 'Spawn took from seranni and convince her that she was tricked that she stops blaming humans and after she does, it seemed rather clear to me that she felt guilty about what she'd done.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...

Naming an entire age in a celebration of Orlais' Imperial Glory? Seems to be a pretty big deal to me.

Money, blades, templars. Now that would be supporting Orlais.
It's just a name.

And where is your proof that those bloody missionaries were non aggressive at first and how does the Chantry have the right to keep sending them if the elves say "Nope, not interested"? They don't have that right. If the elves weren't interested in conversion, than the right and tolerant thing to do would have been to stop pestering them, not going so far as to send *soldiers*.

A couple of men in robes is not going to risk antagonizing any elven population by being agressive. Look at Rigby or Genitivi. They weren't hurting anyone and the right and tolerant thing to do would be to allow them to preach.

[General User]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

General User wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

General User wrote...

Of course you're right about that.  I'm just saying nowhere are any of the other nations that fought in the Exhalted March against the Dales mentioned as having any problem with the putting the Dalish in black hats.  That doesn't make sense unless the elves had much to engender hostility and little to encourage friendship amoungst all their human neighbors, not just the Orlesians.

They were elves. Look at all the blatant racism against the elves you see everywhere; even Lelian engages in causal racism until your elf PC calls her out on that, and one of her good friends in her DLC was an elven mage.

Humans don't seem to have any problem living an working with dwarves.  The hostility between elves and human is more than simple "blatant racism".  There's bad blood there.  And "racism" is just as much a symptom as a cause.

But with Dwarves the Tevinter traded instead of conquering, because sending armies underground would have resulted in massacres, the dwarves had a huge empire and could defend it.

Yes.  The relationship between the Dwarven Kingdoms and their human neighbors is (for the most part) characterized by peaceful commerce and mutal respect.  The Dalish would have done well to follow that example.  Unfortunately for them, it appears that they did not.

[Fiacre]

General User wrote...
[T]erritories they had liberated from the darkspawn", huh?  You mean largely depopulated, almost certainly lawless, blight lands?  I'll tell you what, if I were the Emperor of Orlais, I would have had my victorious armies occupy those territories too, for humanitarian as well as practical reasons.  Depending on the situation, forty years is not actually that long a time.

Remember, there's no set form imperialism has to take.  Just because something may be considered "imperialism" form one angle or another, doesn't make it a bad thing.

Was all of Ferelden destroyed by the blights? Orlais had no right to occupy. They could have offered their help -- had nevarra needed it and turned it down then had they been dying from the effects of the blight it would have been their own fault. but the Blight doesn't justify Orlais simply occupying them.