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[Xilizhra]

But I think i am done with this thread, it has been a fun diversion, but I am sad to see how close minded some people are. Thank God we moved out of the the Medieval Age and into the Age of Reason, otherwise we would still be fighting wars over religion.

Regrettably, we are still fighting wars over religion. They're just not really world powers doing it anymore. Now all we get to do is give the religious wars disapproving looks.

[Fiacre]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...


Really? It seems like a good analogy to me. You think because the chantry believes in spreading the word of the maker they have the right to invade the Dales to insure thier missionaries can preach. You dont believe that the elves own religious and cultural ideas should be able to dictate their own actions. Seems pretty similar to me.

But I think i am done with this thread, it has been a fun diversion, but I am sad to see how close minded some people are. Thank God we moved out of the the Medieval Age and into the Age of Reason, otherwise we would still be fighting wars over religion.

If you're still reading, that's not quite what he has been saying. he's argued that the elves were foolish, disregarding any moral judgement there and he's argued against my morality based arguments against missionaries that from the Chantry's point of view their belief justified and obligated them to send those and to preach. the former can be arguably true, the latter definitely is because that's the Chantry's view. That does, however, not make them right objectively, which I don't think he's said.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...

He did? When was that? I've never gotten that. huh. He might not be as much of a jerk as I thought...

You can convince Zerlinda to go the Chantry and Burker gives her work and shelter to both her and her son.

What do we know of peaceful conversion? Apart from burkel and possibly Rigby (again, Genitivi is a scholar).

All first attempts at conversion are peaceful. In Orzammar, Dales, Rivain.
It can get violent, tough, that is a fact and not something I agree with. But in Orzammar, a March was only considered after Burkel was murdered during a peaceful protest. The Chantry was content with letting him spread the faith peacefully.
Had the elves made the simple concession of allowing the founding of a Chantry in the Dales, it could have avoided much bloodshed.

I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot something. what's done to the mages is oppression and it isn't right and if the Chantry fears the dangers of magic so much they damn well should make a better system to prevent them, one that doesn't dehumanize mages.

Ok, I'm Pro-Templar and let's leave it at that.
This is not the right thread.

Perhaps, you're right, but that doesn't mean that the humans' actions should be defended. That's not how things should be and one shold strife to improve them.

Neither should the elves. Their intolerance led to war and we have reason to believe they dealt the first strike.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 août 2012 - 11:20 .

[The Night Haunter]

Xilizhra wrote...

But I think i am done with this thread, it has been a fun diversion, but I am sad to see how close minded some people are. Thank God we moved out of the the Medieval Age and into the Age of Reason, otherwise we would still be fighting wars over religion.

Regrettably, we are still fighting wars over religion. They're just not really world powers doing it anymore. Now all we get to do is give the religious wars disapproving looks.

Unfortunately true, but Europe and NA don't get in religous wars. Which I am biased towards, being a 'Westerner', but the world moves at different speeds. In time there will be peace (unless we all blow each other up first, although I guess there would be peace after that lol)

[Xilizhra]

Ok, I'm Pro-Templar and let's leave it at that.
This is not the right thread.

Really, it's all the same crap. Chantry vs. the world. Though the qunari are bad enough that they stand a bit outside that.

Unfortunately true, but Europe and NA don't get in religous wars. Which I am biased towards, being a 'Westerner', but the world moves at different speeds. In time there will be peace (unless we all blow each other up first, although I guess there would be peace after that lol)

True, most of the later wars in Europe have been political/ethnic issues as opposed to religious ones per se, but never underestimate organized religion; it's sneaky.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Really, it's all the same crap. Chantry vs. the world.

Humans and elves were at each other's throats before Andraste was born.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...easant person?
Petrice. Certainly, spreading faith was her goal.

She was a Mother and backed by an army of templars on her own turf. Completely different situation.
Burkel, Genitivi, Rigby are all incredibly polite and pleasant people.

Rigby? No, he and his son are dead, and we know little about their personalities. He loved his family, that much is clear. But given how he calls the Chasind "unenlightened", that can be taken as a sign of condescension and derision towards the Chasind beliefs. Just as much, it can simply mean "They haven't heard it yet".

Genitivi? Sure, he's a nice enough fellow, because he respects other peoples' beliefs and doesn't try to convert them. He actually tries to learn about the beliefs of other cultures, which makes him a better person.

Burkel, not so much. The Dwarves don't claim that there isn't a Creator and that the Stone wasn't created by said Creator. They just don't really see why they should worship Him when His existence is still a mystery. There are a lot of claims with conjecture on Him being real, but little factual evidence.

Their religion focuses primarily on their Ancestors, which shouldn't even be grounds for having them convert to some other religion. To the Dwarves, they'd probably consider Andraste to be the Paragon to the human lands, which says a lot about how much they'd respect her even if they don't consider themselves a part of the Andrastian faith.

We also see how Templars like Cullen will call Dwarves heathens -- as Cullen does to Oghren after Oghren says... something. I can't remember what he said during Broken Circle. But if they're going to be called heathens for venerating their forefathers, then there isn't much religious tolerance in the Chantry. What little is there is scarcely seen.

MisterJB wrote...

Have we ever met an Andrastian missionary that wasn't a quite pleasant person?

Met? If you count Sister Petrice, then yes. If not, then we've read about how when the Qunari of Rivain refused to convert back to the Andrastian faith, they were slaughtered.

And I'd consider Burkel to be one of those "not quite so pleasant" missionaries. Of course, I'm a Dwarf.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

You can convince Zerlinda to go the Chantry and Burker gives her work and shelter to both her and her son.

I see. I've never done his quest and always either convince her father to take he back or send her to the surface. Might have to revise my opinion on him.

All first attempts at conversion are peaceful. In Orzammar, Dales, Rivain.
It can get violent, tough, that is a fact and not something I agree with. But in Orzammar, a March was only considered after Burkel was murdered during a peaceful protest. The Chantry was content with letting him spread the faith peacefully.
Had the elves made the simple concession of allowing the founding of a Chantry in the Dales, it could have avoided much bloodshed.

It does show that the Chantry gets violent very quickly, and it does show that even had the Dales let missionaries in -- which they shouldn't have to, from a moral point of view, though I do understand your argumet about practiicality -- there might still have been violence, just like there was in Rivain.

Ok, I'm Pro-Templar and let's leave it at that.
This is not the right thread.

I see. And i suppose it isn't.

Neither should the elves. Their intolerance led to war and we have reason to believe they dealt the first strike.

I disagree that we have any more reason to lay the blame on the elves than on the Chantry considering the lack of information and the Chantry's unsaviory history. I also disagree that the elves views are quite as condemnable as you say. Imo, as long as they left the humanas alone the humans should have left them alone and everyone should have been peaceful. Unfortunately that's rarely how things work.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Really, it's all the same crap. Chantry vs. the world.

Humans and elves were at each other's throats before Andraste was born.

Well, it's good to know that you blame elven isolationism for Tevinter conquering Arlathan as well.

[dragonflight288]

Their religion focuses primarily on their Ancestors, which shouldn't even be grounds for having them convert to some other religion. To the Dwarves, they'd probably consider Andraste to be the Paragon to the human lands, which says a lot about how much they'd respect her even if they don't consider themselves a part of the Andrastian faith.

I'd like to build on this.

To a dwarf, they honestly believe they are the children of the stone. Their ancestors were very real people. A dwarf focuses on what they can observe with their senses. Why would a dwarf care about a mysterious god-like figure that abandoned his children twice? Why would they care about the elven pantheon who have been imprisoned by a trickster? But the stone is around them all the time. It's above their heads, below their feet, it is their very walls. It supplies them with everything they need, lyrium, coal, precious metals that they trade with the surface and is very real.

As far as a dwarf is concerned, they've always lived beneath the surface, surrounded by the stone. Unlike the other races atop the surface, a dwarf who has no god, places their faith in things they can learn about in history (even if they edit that same history like the Chantry does its own Chant of Light when certain sections become politically inconvenient,) or observe for themselves.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Even Lanaya admits this is arrogance from their part.

The Dwarves consider themselves to be the Children of the Stone, so no it's not arrogance for the Dalish to call the Dwarves by the same title the Dwarves go by.

We are the Children of the Stone. She supports us, shelters us, offers us the most priceless gifts of the earth. The worthy return to her embrace in death, becoming Ancestors. The unworthy are cast out, unable to rest, that their failings may not weaken the Stone.

So it has been since the earliest memories. We live by the Stone, guided by the Ancestors, who speak with the voice of the Provings, and whose memories the Shaperate keeps forever in lyrium.

We do not accept the empty promises of heaven as the wild elves do, or vie for the favor of absent gods. Instead, we follow in the footsteps of our Paragons--the greatest of our ancestors, warriors, craftsmen, leaders, the greatest examples of lives spent in service to our fellow dwarves. Our Paragons joined with the Stone in life, and now stand watch at our gate, ushering in those surfacers privileged to visit our city. We know there is no greater honor to hope for, no better reward for an exceptional life.

--As told by Shaper Czibor

Additionally, I don't recall Lanaya saying that the epithet the Dalish call the Dwarves stemmed from arrogance or even seemed to be arrogant.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2012 - 07:43 .

[MisterJB]

I was referring to the term shemlen which means "quick children" and it is what they call humans.

Lanaya says " I guess it is very arrogant to consider other people as children" and she is right. It implies humans are culturally and intelectually inferior to elves. This may have been so in the days of Arlathan when the elves were great and humanity was a young race but the times have changed and its meaning has become increasingly negative. Now, it is nothing but a racial slur as bad or even worse than "knife ears" which, at least, is an insult that bases itself solely on appearance.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 août 2012 - 08:26 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

I was referring to the term shemlen which means "quick children" and it is what they call humans.

Lanaya says " I guess it is very arrogant to consider other people as children" and she is right. It implies humans are culturally and intelectually inferior to elves. This may have been so in the days of Arlathan when the elves were great and humanity was a young race but the times have changed and its meaning has become increasingly negative. Now, it is nothing but a racial slur as bad or even worse than "knife ears" which, at least, is an insult that bases itself solely on appearance.

I have no doubt that many Dalish consider it that way, but almost all the City Elves most certainly do as they don't even know the meaning of the word 'shemlen.' They just refer to humans as Shems.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

I was referring to the term shemlen which means "quick children" and it is what they call humans.

Lanaya says " I guess it is very arrogant to consider other people as children" and she is right. It implies humans are culturally and intelectually inferior to elves. This may have been so in the days of Arlathan when the elves were great and humanity was a young race but the times have changed and its meaning has become increasingly negative. Now, it is nothing but a racial slur as bad or even worse than "knife ears" which, at least, is an insult that bases itself solely on appearance.

I'm not sure either one of them is particularly above the other.  Knife-ears is a dumb insult because elves ears, while point, bare almost zero resemblence to actual knives.  Shemlen, or "Quick Children" is a reference to how short human life spans are, which is silly because these days Elven lifespans aren't that much longer, if at all.

Now what I would be offended by is the notion of the Daleish  calling themselves "The People" implying that humans and city elves aren't people.

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I was referring to the term shemlen which means "quick children" and it is what they call humans.

Lanaya says " I guess it is very arrogant to consider other people as children" and she is right. It implies humans are culturally and intelectually inferior to elves. This may have been so in the days of Arlathan when the elves were great and humanity was a young race but the times have changed and its meaning has become increasingly negative. Now, it is nothing but a racial slur as bad or even worse than "knife ears" which, at least, is an insult that bases itself solely on appearance.

I'm not sure either one of them is particularly above the other.  Knife-ears is a dumb insult because elves ears, while point, bare almost zero resemblence to actual knives.  Shemlen, or "Quick Children" is a reference to how short human life spans are, which is silly because these days Elven lifespans aren't that much longer, if at all.

Now what I would be offended by is the notion of the Daleish  calling themselves "The People" implying that humans and city elves aren't people.

I'm just generally put off by their arrogance and self-righteousness. The very idea that someone who isn't Dalish being *gasp* BETTER than them at something is an insult of the highest degree. And it isn't just a clan. Master Ilen is insulted when Hawke offers to help out with darkspawn near the Iron Bark. The storyteller in Zathrian's clan is insulted and almost wants to turn the Grey Warden away because they offer to help where the Dalish hunters failed.

It's like the Dalish, in this current day and age, can't stand the idea that there are people who are more skilled than they. I can't speak for the ancient elves, but the current ones acting all insulted when I offer to help them kind of makes me want to not help them at all.

Not a rason to invade them and destroy their culture, but it makes me want to avoid anything to do with them. Which is kind of what they want.

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have no doubt that many Dalish consider it that way, but almost all the City Elves most certainly do as they don't even know the meaning of the word 'shemlen.' They just refer to humans as Shems.

Truth be told "Shem" is probably one of the nicer things that City Elves call humans.

[Wulfram]

Racial epithets level of insult generally have very little to do with their actual meaning and almost everything to do with their context and manner of use.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Now what I would be offended by is the notion of the Daleish  calling themselves "The People" implying that humans and city elves aren't people.

I think when they say that, it has more to do with them considering themselves the last of "The People of the Dalish Pantheon/Culture/History", rather then considering themselves to be people and everyone else to be sub-human at best.

Because they still consider City Elves to be Elves, though they liken them to be little better then the humans and call them... flat-ears IIRC due to how they abandoned their culture and do little to stand up for themselves.

And it's true, they are the last of the Elven People, if you look at it from the viewpoint of the ancient culture and not the biological standpoint of what makes an Elf an Elf. 

Interestingly enough, Alienage Elves call City Elves that leave the Alienage flat-ears as well IIRC. So the whole Elven superiority complex is hardly limited to just the Dalish. It seems to be a part of the City Elves as well.

Wulfram wrote...

Racial epithets level of insult generally have very little to do with their actual meaning and almost everything to do with their context and manner of use

True enough.

Lazy Jer wrote...

Truth be told "Shem" is probably one of the nicer things that City Elves call humans.

Especially if it's Shianni calling you it. If she just calls you a Shem, then you got off easy.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Really, it's all the same crap. Chantry vs. the world.

Humans and elves were at each other's throats before Andraste was born.

Well, it's good to know that you blame elven isolationism for Tevinter conquering Arlathan as well.

Well their isolation is to blame.  The elves isolated themselves from humans so when the Tevinters attacked they were caught unprepared and off guard.  Had they associated with the humans they'd have had a better idea of what was brewing and could have prepared.   Isolation, even if it doesn't bother anybody, blinds you to the activities of your neighbours which isn't, and never has been, a smart thing to do.

[Xilizhra]

Their isolation isn't to blame, the magisters being evil is. Isolation may have weakened their defenses, but certainly was not the thing that actually sank the city.

[DPSSOC]

Had they not isolated themselves they would have been better prepared, would have been able to put forward an appearance of strength, and dissuaded attack.

It's the same as happened to the Dales; their isolationist policies invited invasion. In Arlathan they presented themselves as weak, and in the Dales they presented themselves as hostile. In both cases the events that transpired were easily forseeable and preventable and the elves failed to do so, they are to blame.

That's not to say Tevinter and Orlais respectively are without blame, but there's plenty to go around.

[dragonflight288]

But it remains true that isolation keeps you blind to what's going on around you. If you have a warmongering neighbor, it only makes sense to train a military, keep them supplied with the best equipment prepare garrisons and militias in local villages as much as possible, even if you have no intention of using them to invade, having them helps keep others off you.

I'm not saying the isolation is at fault, but it does play a huge factor in Arlathan being unprepared (potentially, I have no idea what happened in that particular war other than Tevinter won.)

[Fiacre]

Do we know they were blind to what was going on around them, though? We know that at least the Dales didn't want to let anyone in, but that doesn't mean they didn't check what the other nations were doing, even if they did it secretly.

[dragonflight288]

Fiacre wrote...

Do we know they were blind to what was going on around them, though? We know that at least the Dales didn't want to let anyone in, but that doesn't mean they didn't check what the other nations were doing, even if they did it secretly.

We don't know. What we do know is that when Orlais realized they were losing and Val Royeaux was being sacked, the Chantry intervened and all the nations went against the Dales, not just Orlais whom the elves had the conflict with.

I suppose without more evidence, all we can do is speculate and then potentially argue over whose theory is the more likely scenario, and then lay blame at one side or the other because we feel our speculation of events is simply too true to have faults.

[General User]

It's as much about attitude as anything else.

When you isolate yourself from your neighbors, you create (or at least contribute to) a climate of hostility and suspicion.

While the specific incident that sparked the war with Orlais may or may not have been the Dalish's fault (though it seems to have been), they were predominantly to blame for the overall climate that lead to hostilities.

Modifié par General User, 28 août 2012 - 12:21 .