384 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

General User wrote...
 Zathrien was a crazy mage who terrorized the human beings misfortunate enough to cross his path.

Zathrian was a mage who terrorized the human beings who tortured and murdered his son, then raped his daughter causing her to commit suicide when she found out she was pregnant. Fixed.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:23 .

[Wulfram]

DuskWarden wrote...

Zathrian was a mage who terrorized the human beings who tortured and murdered his son, then raped his daughter causing her to commit suicide when she found out she was pregnant. Fixed.

And a whole bunch of other humans who had nothing to do with it.

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...
 Zathrien was a crazy mage who terrorized the human beings misfortunate enough to cross his path.

Zathrian was a mage who terrorized the human beings who tortured and murdered his son, then raped his daughter causing her to commit suicide when she found out she was pregnant. Fixed.

No you just broke it.  By perpetuating the werewolf curse, Zathrien continued to terrorize people he had never met, long after his children were nothing but bones.

Modifié par General User, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .

[Fallstar]

Wulfram wrote...
And a whole bunch of other humans who had nothing to do with it.

General User wrote...
No you just broke it.  By perpetuating the werewolf curse, Zathrien continued to terrorize people he had never met, long after his children were nothing but bones.

 

True. I hardly blamed him for continuing the curse however. Such an emotional response to what they did to his children is understandable, whether it was wrong or not. Convincing him to end it and let go was one of the highlights of DAO for me.

[dragonflight288]

So, we have the possibility that it was the Chantry or Orlais that attacked Red Crossing and then blamed the Dalish on it. We have rumors of kidnapping and blood sacrifices concerning the Dalish. Now I normally don't believe rumors, but there is a saying. Where this is smoke, there is fire.

I can easily see the Dalish elves using blood magic to potentially find ways to accelerate the process to regain immortality. Zathrian lived for 300 years because of a blood magic ritual that bound his life to Witherfang. He had to learn such a powerful blood magic ritual from somewhere. As a Keeper, he would know such things if it were passed down.

Does that mean they kidnapped people and sacrificed them? I highly doubt that. Did they have an incentive to attack Red Crossing? I doubt that too. But they did have an incentive to keep humans away from them. And they did have an incentive to try and restore their lost culture and their fabled immortality. I don't think it's a stretch if they did use blood magic rituals to try and prolong their lifespan.

[Fallstar]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So, we have the possibility that it was the Chantry or Orlais that attacked Red Crossing and then blamed the Dalish on it. We have rumors of kidnapping and blood sacrifices concerning the Dalish. Now I normally don't believe rumors, but there is a saying. Where this is smoke, there is fire.

I can easily see the Dalish elves using blood magic to potentially find ways to accelerate the process to regain immortality. Zathrian lived for 300 years because of a blood magic ritual that bound his life to Witherfang. He had to learn such a powerful blood magic ritual from somewhere. As a Keeper, he would know such things if it were passed down.

Does that mean they kidnapped people and sacrificed them? I highly doubt that. Did they have an incentive to attack Red Crossing? I doubt that too. But they did have an incentive to keep humans away from them. And they did have an incentive to try and restore their lost culture and their fabled immortality. I don't think it's a stretch if they did use blood magic rituals to try and prolong their lifespan.

What if the elves of Arlathan were never naturally immortal. The two beings we have seen with significantly longer than expected lifespans are Zathrian and Avernus. Both are blood mages who used blood magic to prolong their lives. Now, we are told that all elves of Arlathan were mages. And I remember reading somewhere that Thedasian historians argued that the elves of Arlathan taught some humans blood magic. If the elves of Arlathan were experienced practitioners of blood magic, is it not possible that they used blood magic to prolong their lives, rather than being naturally immortal.

Merril refers to her blood magic as "the old ways", too. I think Arlathan and blood magic are certainly linked.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 juillet 2012 - 04:35 .

[dragonflight288]

What if the elves of Arlathan were never naturally immortal. The two beings we have seen with significantly longer than expected lifespans are Zathrian and Avernus. Both are blood mages who used blood magic to prolong their lives. Now, we are told that all elves of Arlathan were mages. And I remember reading somewhere that Thedasian historians argued that the elves of Arlathan taught some humans blood magic. If the elves of Arlathan were experienced practitioners of blood magic, is it not possible that they used blood magic to prolong their lives, rather than being naturally immortal.

Merril refers to her blood magic as "the old ways", too. I think Arlathan and blood magic are certainly linked.

It's possible. But all Dalish have naturally longer life-spans than everyone else, the longer they stay away from humans. And there are accounts of the elves who initially dealt with humans suddenly becoming victims of age and disease, two things that never plagued the elves before.

Add in the thousand years as slaves to Tevinter and I have to wonder where the elves of the Dales would have the knowledge of ancient magics. I'm thinking it's far more likely they used blood magic to develop rituals and spells to prolong their life after their enslavement.

[thats1evildude]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except we do know that some Dalish have utilized blood magic: Merrill. And while Merrill might personally not kill others for it, we also know that it's an enormously slippery slope.

Merrill was treated like a pariah for practicing blood magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

thats1evildude wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except we do know that some Dalish have utilized blood magic: Merrill. And while Merrill might personally not kill others for it, we also know that it's an enormously slippery slope.

Merrill was treated like a pariah for practicing blood magic.

By the modern Dalish, who have about as much to do with the ancient Dalish as the Aztlan movement as to do with the pre-colonial Aztec and Mesoamerican cultures.

But you're missing the point, which was that Merrill (and Zathrian) serve as counter-examples to absolutist 'Dalish don't use blood magic' arguments. because we can point to Dalish who have self-justified the use of Blood Magic. That they are well away of the excesses of Tevinter is irrelevant: you don't need to be as bad as Tevinter to do human sacrifices or blood magic.

[Fallstar]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's possible. But all Dalish have naturally longer life-spans than everyone else, the longer they stay away from humans. And there are accounts of the elves who initially dealt with humans suddenly becoming victims of age and disease, two things that never plagued the elves before.

Add in the thousand years as slaves to Tevinter and I have to wonder where the elves of the Dales would have the knowledge of ancient magics. I'm thinking it's far more likely they used blood magic to develop rituals and spells to prolong their life after their enslavement.

True. I simply find it hard to believe that an ancient, immortal civilization of elves - every one of whom was a mage - was destroyed by the Tevinters, who were very mortal and who could have first learnt blood magic from the elves. It seems equivalent to someone who started practicing with a sword yesterday defeating a blademaster. If the elves alive at the time were these immortal beings who had studied magic for centuries, it seems odd that a mortal magister could outmatch them. If their immortality was reliant on blood magic on the other hand, it becomes a possibility that the Tevinter mages could have manipulated whatever magic was involved, killing or weakening the elves.

[Dean_the_Young]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...


If the longer life spam, and immortality even, of the elves was possible because of the use of blood magic only there would be a lot more elves like Zathrian in Thedas. The codex also says that the elves lost their immortality once they came in contact with humans. Wondering what the trigger for that here was.........

There are other alternatives than active blood magic spells. You could have blood magic-derived rituals that were so engraved in the Elvish Culture that the distinction became meaningless or undistinguished. The Romans had exceptional hygene because they had baths, for example, but they didn't have baths so that they would have good hygene. Factor in blood-magic-derived enchantments or rituals (consider the Warden ritual as a sort of blood magic even non-mages can do), and you could have blood magic related practices that don't require active blood mages... or necessarily huge excesses of mass-murder ala Tevinter.

You could simply have a scenario in which regular elvish cultural rituals have low-level blood magic-related*  aspects, rituals so ancient that the blood magic aspect is largely forgotten or irrelevant to the lay-elf... but which could be rediscovered by those who analyze them in certain ways.

*And by related, that could be anything from 'a pinprick to a something like the Old God Baby semen trick.


The point isn't 'ancient elves bathed in the blood of slaves in order to extend their lifespans.' The point is that Elvish culture-rituals could have subtle blood-magic related aspects that help with the life spans, and that more blatant blood magic procedures (such as by Zathrin, or Merrill) could be used to brute-force similar results.


From there it would be a small step from using small aspects of blood magic for life expansion to using more direct aspects of blood magic for other uses... especially with Elvish mages who could easily adopt blood magic knowledge or willingness from their Tevinter masters. From there it could be a step or two until some elvish mage, with or without sanction, steals a human or three for his or her rituals...


Or it could be a different scenario entirely. You could simply have an unscrupulous Elvish blood mage who saw Human blood as a shortcut to some higher aspiration, or as revenge, or any other number of reasons, and you'd still have a basis for rumors of abductions of humans.


Or there could be no basis to the rumors at all, and they're simplying superstitions and false accusations.




There are a lot of ways it could have happened, and a lot of ways for those accusations to have an element of truth behind them. Dismissing them outright simply because they favor the Chantry is simply poor bias at work.

[dragonflight288]

True. I simply find it hard to believe that an ancient, immortal civilization of elves - every one of whom was a mage - was destroyed by the Tevinters, who were very mortal and who could have first learnt blood magic from the elves. It seems equivalent to someone who started practicing with a sword yesterday defeating a blademaster. If the elves alive at the time were these immortal beings who had studied magic for centuries, it seems odd that a mortal magister could outmatch them. If their immortality was reliant on blood magic on the other hand, it becomes a possibility that the Tevinter mages could have manipulated whatever magic was involved, killing or weakening the elves.

That or Tevinter killed a lot of elves who were in the middle of a debate that had been going on for the past decade on whether or not they should fight. The elves of Arlathan's biggest weakness, at least from my perspective, was how slow they were to react to things. They were used to taking their sweet time at doing things because they had all the time in the world. They didn't know how to react quickly to the Shemlen, or Quicklings in elvish.

Either possibility is possible.

[Wulfram]

Immortality/Long life turning people into a bunch of lazy wusses is a pretty standard Speculative Fiction trope.

Though I think this is really silly, and only exists as a rather transparent way to make dying seem like it sucks less.

[Dean_the_Young]

Whether the Elves were ever immortal at all is also a fair question: it wouldn't be unfathomable for it to be a romanticized exaggeration of what did occur, either in the extent (lifespan extension rather than perpetuity) or in commonality (something only the rich got).

While there's plenty of evidence that the ancient Elves were a great civilization, there's little to support that they were nice. If you removed most of the history of Tevinter, and approached what was left with a bias, you could cast Tevinter as much different than it actually was.

[dragonflight288]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whether the Elves were ever immortal at all is also a fair question: it wouldn't be unfathomable for it to be a romanticized exaggeration of what did occur, either in the extent (lifespan extension rather than perpetuity) or in commonality (something only the rich got).

While there's plenty of evidence that the ancient Elves were a great civilization, there's little to support that they were nice. If you removed most of the history of Tevinter, and approached what was left with a bias, you could cast Tevinter as much different than it actually is.

Fixed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not really. Even though Tevinter isn't that great of a place now, what it is now is far better than what it was.

[TEWR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is this your assertion of fact, or an assumption held for the purpose of the argument? The second works well, but the first does not because the counter-argument source (the Dalish Elf Warden) can not be considered an unbiased or even an authoritative source.

I'd consider the Dalish Elf Warden to know about such things, considering he's descended from the previous Keeper of the Sabrae clan -- and the Keepers themselves have a lineage dating back to the rulers of the Dales. He can assure Pol -- and maybe Leliana -- that they don't do anything of the sort.

Now, there might even be other bits of lore to suggest I'm right. I'll try and dig them up later, if they exist. So for now, I won't say I'm asserting it as fact until other evidence comes up, though I do personally believe it is the fact of the matter.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except we do know that some Dalish have utilized blood magic: Merrill. And while Merrill might personally not kill others for it, we also know that it's an enormously slippery slope.

Using blood magic doesn't mean that they practiced sacrificial rituals to their gods. Using blood magic can be viewed as a reason for that going on, but the former does not dictate the latter having ever happened.

Zathrian was a blood mage, but he didn't kill any humans in the name of his gods. The only humans he's killed were ones that killed an Elven scout and centuries past he cursed some humans to be werewolves for what they did to his children.

But none of that had to do with ritual sacrifice. Zathrian's been the Keeper of his clan for.... three centuries? Four? I think he would also have had an inkling on whether or not they do practice such things.

Bear in mind however that we know the Elves were in Thedas first. The Humans came from Par Vollen to the North. So unless the Elves were sacrificing other Elves -- unlikely, as that would breed discontent in the Elven nation -- there was never any time when people were being sacrificed to their gods.

Additionally, as was stated before, Merrill was ostracized and made a pariah from her clan because of her blood magic. Velanna was kicked out of her clan because of her beliefs that they should fight back against the humans.

dragonflight288 wrote...

 I'm thinking it's far more likely they used blood magic to develop rituals and spells to prolong their life after their enslavement.

It's certainly a possibility, given what's previously been stated by DuskWarden on the matter -- blood magic practiced in Arlathan, taught to the Tevinter Imperium, Merrill referring to it as the old ways.

But.... if they were doing what Zathrian was doing, then we'd see more and more spirits of the land all over the place, akin to the Lady of the Forest. And that's assuming Zathrian's method is the only body-preserving method, as Avernus' only stalled the corruption while his body was still decaying.

There are probably other ways for blood magic to grant longer lifespans, but we haven't seen much of that aside from Zathrian's method. So if the Elves of the Dales were doing this, then we'd see many Ladies of the Forest. But since there's only one spirit of a forest per forest -- by the Grand Oak's testimony -- I can't see it being applied that much.

Again, assuming Zathrian's method is the only method to grant longer lifespans.

So I definitely consider your theory to be a possibility, provided Zathrian's method isn't the only one.

And since we have accounts that the Elves of Arlathan were dying from age and disease -- as well as accounts that they live longer then other people, though that's probably do to the cleaner environment and healthy living -- I'm more inclined to think that they were naturally immortal back then. Marethari herself was 115 years old at the time of her death.

General User wrote...

 they were accused of doing so by their neighbors. 

You stole my batch of corgies to fuel your desire for puppy rituals!

I have now accused you of committing a crime. I have no proof to back up such a claim, but I have accused you of it.

Accusations without proof matter little. Even the Chantry calls it "rumors". Anyone can spread a rumor. The gossips in Redcliffe, Denerim, Lothering, and Orzammar talk about how they heard there are no Darkspawn down south, and that it's all Grey Warden work.

Rumors are just that: rumors.

I'll believe a person that says those things didn't happen over a rumor that says they did, when no evidence of such exists.

The Chantry sacked the Dales and reclaimed it did they not? So why then do we not hear or see any reports of blood-stained altars or anything else of the sort? If the Elves of the Dales truly practiced such a thing, why is there no evidence suggest they did aside from rumors?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[IanPolaris]

I am not and never had said the Dalish were blameless. My primary fault with the Dalish is they pushed for a total victory (wiping out Orlais) which created the crisis that caused the Exalted March in the first place. Any leadership that had any political sense and contacts at all should have realized that the Chantry wasn't going to let their pet Empire go completely down. [In this the Dalish made the same mistake Gen MacAuthor and President Truman did in ignoring Mao's warnings not to get too close to the Yalu River during the Korean War.]

I fully accept that the Dalish probably did practice blood magic at least in some capacity. That doesn't mean that the Dalish ate human prisoners and sacrificed them to their gods. All the information we have about the Dalish INCLUDING being one of them tells us that this is simply false.

As for rejecting the Chantry version because it's the chantry's version, I do not. I accept that Red Crossing might have happened because a border incident spiraled out of control. I do not believe the Chantry becaue the Chantry has every reason to LIE about what happened at Red Crossing and the story they tell simply doesn't add up...and it doesn't add up in the same way that Polish Troops attacking Germany doesn't add up in 1939.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ethereal,

Avernus, the Grey Warden mage apparently used some sort of blood ritual to prolong his life. We aren't given any details though.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Yup, I know he did. But that application of blood magic was not one that perfectly preserved his body, which was what I was getting at.

His ritual didn't keep his body from aging or decaying, though it was still functional.

Now, that's more then likely just due to the taint and had he done the same thing more or less without the taint in his body -- as his research notes tell us he wanted to be able to do for future Wardens -- his body might not have decayed.

So Zathrian's method is really the only one that we have that points to longer lifespans and bodies that don't age or decay.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You stole my batch of corgies to fuel your desire for puppy rituals!

I have now accused you of committing a crime. I have no proof to back up such a claim, but I have accused you of it.

Have you and I been snarling back and forth at each other for a number of years?  Do we live in a neighborhood where such puppy rituals are relatively common place?  And would such puppy rituals in any way offer me the promise of finally getting ahead in our competition?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Accusations without proof matter little. Even the Chantry calls it "rumors". Anyone can spread a rumor. The gossips in Redcliffe, Denerim, Lothering, and Orzammar talk about how they heard there are no Darkspawn down south, and that it's all Grey Warden work.

Rumors are just that: rumors.

That's just not true.  Some rumors deserve to be taken more seriously than others.  For example, in Thedas when a magocratic nation, with a long history of mutual racial, religious and territorial enmity with its neighbors, has been rumored to be capturing enemy nationals and using them for blood magic  purposes… that's a rumor that warrants being taken very seriously.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll believe a person that says those things didn't happen over a rumor that says they did, when no evidence of such exists.

Skepticism is a healthy instinct.  Bump that instinct up a couple notches and turn a bit of it towards the Dalish themselves and that's just about where I'm coming from.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Chantry sacked the Dales and reclaimed it did they not? So why then do we not hear or see any reports of blood-stained altars or anything else of the sort? If the Elves of the Dales truly practiced such a thing, why is there no evidence suggest they did aside from rumors?

Maybe because when the Chantry conquered the Dales pretty much everything was blood-stained.  Altars included.

===
***And, more than anything else, please bear in mind tha I said "suggest" not "prove."***

Modifié par General User, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is this your assertion of fact, or an assumption held for the purpose of the argument? The second works well, but the first does not because the counter-argument source (the Dalish Elf Warden) can not be considered an unbiased or even an authoritative source.

I'd consider the Dalish Elf Warden to know about such things, considering he's descended from the previous Keeper of the Sabrae clan -- and the Keepers themselves have a lineage dating back to the rulers of the Dales. He can assure Pol -- and maybe Leliana -- that they don't do anything of the sort.

And if neither the Dalish Elf Warden or the Keeper of the Sabrae clan were ever anywhere close to actually knowing what the Dales were about except by a self-serving historical ideology, why should we trust them to be accurate, let alone honest on the matter?

Using blood magic doesn't mean that they practiced sacrificial rituals to their gods. Using blood magic can be viewed as a reason for that going on, but the former does not dictate the latter having ever happened.

It's not a proof, but it does grant credibility to concerns. The rumors might have been exagerated, but that would be different from being completely wrong: if the truth is a quarter of a the rumor, that's still far more than 0.

If we accept the Dalish did use blood magic, there's little space between that and the more paranoid, hateful, or studious of them from using humans for their research. It may not be for the Elvish gods, but I doubt the victims would particularly care about the difference.

Additionally, as was stated before, Merrill was ostracized and made a pariah from her clan because of her blood magic. Velanna was kicked out of her clan because of her beliefs that they should fight back against the humans.

Already addressed that same point. What the Dalish do now is far from indicative from what views the Dales held, due to the extreme gap between the two cultures. The link of similar practices can be inferred (in the presence of blood magic), but views can not be translated the same way.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .