384 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Already addressed that same point. What the Dalish do now is far from indicative from what views the Dales held, due to the extreme gap between the two cultures. The link of similar practices can be inferred (in the presence of blood magic), but views can not be translated the same way.

And I addressed it right back.  There is not an extreme gap between Dalish and human cultures and hasn't been since before the fall of Tevinter.  Perhaps and just perhaps there was such a gap between the Elves of Arlathan and the first humans in Thedas, but the fact that the Arlathan Elves seemed perfectly happy to live and use cities that humans had built (see the Brecillian Forest Ruins and the first hand testimony of one that lived in them in the phylactery) suggests that there wasn't an extreme gap even then.

Frankly it's a lazy argument.  I could use the same argument to say that the early Dalish did blood-sacrifical incestuous orgies complete with the wholesale roasting and dining on humans.  Heck for that matter I could claim that the Dalish were really Demon worships in league with the Darkspawn.

This is all clearly hogwash, but this is why the burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claim.  There is no evidence that the elves EVER did blood sacrifice to their gods, and we know that the modern Dalish don't do it as a matter of fact.  We also know that this lie continues to be spread.

Thus I am appealing to Occam's razor.  The simpliest conclusion is that the Dalish never have done anything of the sort, and that others are slandering them (for their own reasons).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:38 .

[IanPolaris]

General User wrote...

That's just not true.  Some rumors deserve to be taken more seriously than others.  For example, in Thedas when a magocratic nation, with a long history of mutual racial, religious and territorial enmity with its neighbors, has been rumored to be capturing enemy nationals and using them for blood magic  purposes… that's a rumor that warrants being taken very seriously.

Several things wrong with this argument.  First of all we do not know that the Dales was a Magocratic Nation.  It seems reasonable to think that mages had an important voice, but the only verified magocracy in Thedas is Tevinter (and well technically Arlathan but only because all elves were mages then).  Also the Dales during this period had existed for less than 300 years and that land was a direct and divine gift by Andraste herself. 

The only thing the Dalish asked for was a home of their own and to be left alone.  Everything else seems to have been rumor-mongering done by Orlais that has every reason to want to conquer the Dalish and every reason to lie about it.

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

That's nice of you to type, Polaris.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:47 .

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's nice of you to type, Polaris.

I will take that as conceeding the point then.  My thanks.

-Polaris

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...

Several things wrong with this argument.  First of all we do not know that the Dales was a Magocratic Nation.  It seems reasonable to think that mages had an important voice, but the only verified magocracy in Thedas is Tevinter (and well technically Arlathan but only because all elves were mages then). 

Fair enough, you could either replace "magocratic" with something like "strong magical heritage", or just omit the word entirely, as you please.  The thrust of my argument, that the ancient Dalish had both the means and the motive to kidnap human beings for nefarious blood magic related purposes remains.

IanPolaris wrote...

Also the Dales during this period had existed for less than 300 years and that land was a direct and divine gift by Andraste herself. 

A lot can happen in 300 years. 

IanPolaris wrote...

The only thing the Dalish asked for was a home of their own and to be left alone.  Everything else seems to have been rumor-mongering done by Orlais that has every reason to want to conquer the Dalish and every reason to lie about it.

That or…  after the elves got their homeland they became increasingly hostile and isolationist as they embraced their doctrine of racial supremacy meanwhile turning to demonic blood magic to replace the old elven magics they could no longer remember.  Eventually Dalish elven society degenerated to the point that they launched attacks against their neighbors.

Of course, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  But neither extremist point of view can simply be discarded since both likely contain some elements of the truth.

[Dean_the_Young]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's nice of you to type, Polaris.

I will take that as conceeding the point then.  My thanks.

-Polaris

That's a nice delusion, Polaris. Don't let me disuade you.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Faerunner wrote...

I could say the same about the Chantry. Their conquer of the Dales was a self-serving action (as they got the land, the resources, and labourers in the form of the captive elves) and their claims of elves using blood-magic and human sacrifices was a self-serving justification for the invasion that they knew was wrong, so why is their claim more valid?

That would be the point I am making, that neither side can be taken at their word. A claim by one side must be viewed with skepticism, but so must a denial by the other.

That's the problem of bias that has arisen in this thread: the Chantry position is thrown out on grounds of being propoganda, but the Dalish denial is accepted at face value.

Between the Dalish and the Chantry, the Chantry has proven in writing that they lie and ommit information about elves and history, so why is their word worth more than the Dalish?

Who says it's worth more?

But to argue along the lines that, because the Chantry has a dog in the fight, that any particular self-justifying argument can be thrown out is a fallacy. The Chantry doesn't only tell lies, and just because it says something that casts itself in a better light doesn't mean what it says isn't true.

If the Dalish previously thought blood magic was fine, why would they change their minds about it now?

Why did the Jews stop being a prostelyzing religion? Because when you're brought low by people who really don't like your beliefs, sometimes its better to moderate them into something that's merely tolerable because the alternative is being stomped even harder.

As many a minority has known, it can always get worse if you don't keep your head down.

The free elves have had one objective from the start: be among their own people, regain their lost culture, and worship their own gods in peace.

See, this is the sort of lazy rationalization that creates problems when talking about groups. 'The free elves' is a collective, not an anthromorphization, and collectives don't have single objectives. They are a collection of objectives, some contradictory, that compete for policy.

For the Dalish, finding every bit of lore and preserving every scrap of history and tradition is paramount.

Except when it isn't: see Merrill.

So if blood magic was part of their culture (as humans claim it was), they would not give it up just because humans told them it was evil.

And they wouldn't give it up just because humans told them it was evil. They would give it up because the Humans have an entire theocratic-military complex dedicated to annihalating any discernable trace of it. Those who wouldn't give it up, or who wouldn't hide it, wouldn't survive. Unnatural selection follows.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Have you and I been snarling back and forth at each other for a number of years?  Do we live in a neighborhood where such puppy rituals are relatively common place?  And would such puppy rituals in any way offer me the promise of finally getting ahead in our competition?

But those rituals aren't relatively common in our neighborhood, as there's no legitimate proof of their existence. And they wouldn't offer them the promise of getting ahead in their competition, because they're not competing against anyone.

And if those things were practiced by the elves of the Dales, why don't the Dalish do the same thing now?

That's just not true.  Some rumors deserve to be taken more seriously than others.  For example, in Thedas when a magocratic nation, with a long history of mutual racial, religious and territorial enmity with its neighbors, has been rumored to be capturing enemy nationals and using them for blood magic  purposes… that's a rumor that warrants being taken very seriously.

Investigated? Sure.

But I'd also expect to see some proof from it to verify it for the history books. Leaving it at rumors just sounds.... fishy.

Skepticism is a healthy instinct.  Bump that instinct up a couple notches and turn a bit of it towards the Dalish themselves and that's just about where I'm coming from.

Fair enough.

Maybe because when the Chantry conquered the Dales pretty much everything was blood-stained.  Altars included.

There's quite a difference between fresh blood and old blood, and I doubt very much that all of the altars would've been soaked with so much blood that you couldn't tell the difference. But even then, altars wouldn't be the only signs of ritual sacrifice. There'd also be bodies of human origin, or things out of place.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Elves also eat. Which means they need farm land too, if they're to support cities such as Halamshiral. They can cleanse it of the taint of inconvenient shem'lem occupiers easily enough.

One presumes that the territory originally granted to the Dalish included farmland. It would be pretty pointless, otherwise. You can see on the map of the Dales that Halamshiral is not that big.

And let's not forget that the elves inhabited the Dales and prospered without outside inteference for nearly three centuries. How did they manage that if they had no viable land for farming?

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's the problem of bias that has arisen in this thread: the Chantry position is thrown out on grounds of being propoganda, but the Dalish denial is accepted at face value.

No that has not what happened, and I'd strongly suggest looking at your own biases.  Only one line of the Chantry version was thrown out because it is clearly and provabably a lie, i.e. the Dalish do blood sacrifices to their gods.  We know for an absolute fact that modern Dalish do not but we also know that the same lie about the Dalish is still told anyway.  It is far simpler and easier, and far more likely to be true that the Chantry is stirring up negative feelings agains the Dalish (and even the Chantry account does not present it as fact.  It's presented as a dirty rumor...and that is one of the dirtiest and oldest tricks in the book in a courtroom...to implant an idea in a jury without actually claiming it or proving it).

The Dalish account doesn't mention Red Crossing at all, so you can't say that we are accepting the Dalish account of that at face value.  There isn't one.

However, just as reasonble people coulc easily figure out that Polish troops did not in fact attack Germany in 1939, it's not hard to determine by reasonable people that the Chantry account of Red Crossing is dubvious at best.  The reason is the same:  The Dalish Kingdom no matter how militantly isolationist had no reason to attack Orlais.

Orlais on the other hand was eager for any pretext to expand and had lots of reasons to win a war.  On paper it was a war that Orlais should have won easily since they greatly outnumbered the Dalish.  I am sure that was part of the calculation.....

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

That's nice, Polaris.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's quite a difference between fresh blood and old blood, and I doubt very much that all of the altars would've been soaked with so much blood that you couldn't tell the difference. But even then, altars wouldn't be the only signs of ritual sacrifice. There'd also be bodies of human origin, or things out of place.

Indeed even today using just a magnifying glass a trained archaelogist can quickly determine if human remains at an old ritual site were used for human sacrifice or not.  The tools used to kill and process the sacrifices make extremely distinctive marks on the bone....and we know that the Chantry has some pretty good archaelogists (Bros Genetivi for one).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


And if neither the Dalish Elf Warden or the Keeper of the Sabrae clan were ever anywhere close to actually knowing what the Dales were about except by a self-serving historical ideology, why should we trust them to be accurate, let alone honest on the matter?

]It's not a proof, but it does grant credibility to concerns. The rumors might have been exagerated, but that would be different from being completely wrong: if the truth is a quarter of a the rumor, that's still far more than 0.

If we accept the Dalish did use blood magic, there's little space between that and the more paranoid, hateful, or studious of them from using humans for their research. It may not be for the Elvish gods, but I doubt the victims would particularly care about the difference.

I dunno... I just can't buy into the Elves of the Dales sacrificing humans for anything, because of the ramifications that would cause. Sacrificing the people of another nation would be an act of agression towards that nation, prompting a war to ensue.

I just can't see the Elves being that stupid.

Fringe elements, maybe. The Elves of the Dales themselves? Not really.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Already addressed that same point. What the Dalish do now is far from indicative from what views the Dales held, due to the extreme gap between the two cultures. The link of similar practices can be inferred (in the presence of blood magic), but views can not be translated the same way.

There's only a gap if we believe there to be one. I don't see a gap between the two cultures.

Now, I'll concede that the Elves of the Dales may have practiced blood magic. That much seems a likely possibility, due to reasons already stated and the Elven phylactery we find in the Brecilian Ruins -- which suggested that Elves and Humans lived together in peace.

Human sacrifice is another matter entirely, and one I don't see as having ever happened, because of the Dalish Warden's testimony and the phylactery's memories of Elves and Humans living together in peace -- who were then slaughtered by an unknown third party.

[Daerog]

Faerunner wrote...

How can we even trust the Chantry? .

The only people to be trusted completely in all of Thedas are the Qunari.

All that can be said is the event happened, people tell two different sides and views of the events, no journal of an old Orlesian general saying "mwahaha we tricked them elves" and no elf tablets suggesting that they became all smug and superior to the humans and attacking them was sport. Everything outside of known events (the towns being attacked, elves invading Orlais, missionaries with templar protection being sent in and turned away) is speculation with no evidence.

I see no reason why the record kept by the Chantry is any less credible than the Dalish record, other than people thinking that the victor is lying because the loser can't possibly be sore about it and believe in a lie to convince themselves that they are the victim. Or that victims can't become the aggressors.

Personally, I like to think that Orlais is to blame, setting up the whole thing, lied to the Chantry that led to the Exalted March after seeing they can't fight the elves without support of the chantry, since the Chantry didn't seem to be involved at first.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And if those things were practiced by the elves of the Dales, why don't the Dalish do the same thing now?

That's easy: what wasn't lost during the fall (as much/most was) was suppressed afterwards.

Investigated? Sure.

But I'd also expect to see some proof from it to verify it for the history books. Leaving it at rumors just sounds.... fishy.

Except that knowing what rumors were going around at the time gives context as to what people were thinking of at the time. The Chantry's history makes no claim that the rumors were true, or justified, only that they existed.

There's quite a difference between fresh blood and old blood, and I doubt very much that all of the altars would've been soaked with so much blood that you couldn't tell the difference. But even then, altars wouldn't be the only signs of ritual sacrifice. There'd also be bodies of human origin, or things out of place.

Which may or may not have been found, and even if they were they could have been covered up because, hey, cultural erasure on a pretty large scale was going on. It wouldn't be the first group in history whose crimes were willfully forgotten rather than paraded about, despite the usual expectations.

(In the US, for example, the largest slave revolt of its time is one of the least remembered ones.)

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Human sacrifice is another matter entirely, and one I don't see as having ever happened, because of the Dalish Warden's testimony and the phylactery's memories of Elves and Humans living together in peace -- who were then slaughtered by an unknown third party.

Indeed, and the fact that elves and humans in the most ancient days did live side by side in peace is very strong evidence that any cultural gaps between elves and humans were minor at best, and what little there were would almost certainly had been destroyed by 1000 years of slavery.

This is consistant with the game play as well.  Elves are presented both in the games and associated fiction has pointed eared humans with a slightly different culture (in the case of the Dalish).  They are not unknowable aliens and I regard that argument has lazy anyway (since you can claim anything if you accept that premise).  If there is any non-human that falls into the unknowable alien category, it would be the Kossith (Qunari).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed even today using just a magnifying glass a trained archaelogist can quickly determine if human remains at an old ritual site were used for human sacrifice or not.  The tools used to kill and process the sacrifices make extremely distinctive marks on the bone....and we know that the Chantry has some pretty good archaelogists (Bros Genetivi for one).

-Polaris

As well as Sister Petrine, who made it a point to authenticate Chantry relics -- some of which I assume were bones of saints of the Chantry. We know that Elthina's Chantry guarded the remains of a Saint of the Chantry.

So if those two can be taken as a sign as the education (the majority of) Chantry clergy receive, then the Chantry would've been able to verify such claims instead of leaving them as rumors -- like Sister Petrine says they are.

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except that knowing what rumors were going around at the time gives context as to what people were thinking of at the time. The Chantry's history makes no claim that the rumors were true, or justified, only that they existed.

That is the oldest propaganda trick in the book (and it is a dirty trick in the courtroom as well).  The way it works is the attorney makes an outrageous claim in front of the jury.  The other lawyer objects, and the judge has it stricken from the record, and instructs the jury to disregard but the jury has already been poisoned by the information and will remember even more because they were told to disregard it.  As one wag puts it, "You can't unring a bell"

That is what the Chantry is doing.  They aren't claiming the Dalish did anything wrong, but they are planting the mustard seed of hate and doubt...and then can say that they never claimed it at all later on if challenged.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Dean_the_Young]

That's nice, Polaris. The reasons you're not worth discussing a topic with still apply.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I dunno... I just can't buy into the Elves of the Dales sacrificing humans for anything, because of the ramifications that would cause. Sacrificing the people of another nation would be an act of agression towards that nation, prompting a war to ensue.

Again, a few problems: you're homogenizing the Elves of the Dale, and are presuming a view that a War was high on the things the Elves of the Dale wanted to avoid.

Neither is backed by what we know of them. One is defied by the nature of individuals and nations, and the other is a matter of contemporary politics we lack.

I just can't see the Elves being that stupid.

Fringe elements, maybe.

Fringe elements would be all that would be needed to validate those rumors.

The Elves of the Dales themselves? Not really.

Why not? Nations do things that, in retrospect, are really stupid all the time. Check out the Economic Crisis.

There's only a gap if we believe there to be one. I don't see a gap between the two cultures.

How can you not, when the Dalish themselves acknowledge it and centuries of incredibly different contexts, historical and political, have passed?

Now, I'll concede that the Elves of the Dales may have practiced blood magic. That much seems a likely possibility, due to reasons already stated and the Elven phylactery we find in the Brecilian Ruins -- which suggested that Elves and Humans lived together in peace.

Human sacrifice is another matter entirely, and one I don't see as having ever happened, because of the Dalish Warden's testimony and the phylactery's memories of Elves and Humans living together in peace -- who were then slaughtered by an unknown third party.

Involuntary blood magic donation and human sacrifice can be equated as one and the same for the purposes of furthering a rumor.

The Dalish Warden has no testimony, because the Dalish Warden has no witness or objective authority on the matter, any more than the Chantry's authorities.

The Phylactery's memories are indeterminate and vague, and can't be used to give a defining concept one way or the other.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:52 .

[LobselVith8]

Considering the elves wanted to regain their immortality by staying away from humanity (and it's mentioned the Dalish live longer than their city counterparts), I don't see why they would capture humans and have contact with them. The humans criticized how their Emerald Guardians kept out the humans from the nation of the Dales, so there seems to be a contradiction with the "rumors" from the Orlesians (that, based on our exposure to the clans, seem to have no merit).

In addition to the expansionist mentality of the Orlesian Empire, there is reason to doubt their claims.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the elves wanted to regain their immortality by staying away from humanity (and it's mentioned the Dalish live longer than their city counterparts), I don't see why they would capture humans and have contact with them.

Politics, lust, personal attachments, or scientific study to determine just how or why contact with Humans deteriorates Elfendom, so as to be able to better prevent it.

Take your pick. There are many more available as well.

The humans criticized how their Emerald Guardians kept out the humans from the nation of the Dales, so there seems to be a contradiction with the "rumors" from the Orlesians (that, based on our exposure to the clans, seem to have no merit).

That's not a contradiction, because there are other ways for information (and people) to move across the border.

In addition to the expansionist mentality of the Orlesian Empire, there is reason to doubt their claims.

Sure. There's also reason to consider it.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I dunno... I just can't buy into the Elves of the Dales sacrificing humans for anything, because of the ramifications that would cause. Sacrificing the people of another nation would be an act of agression towards that nation, prompting a war to ensue.[/quote]Again, a few problems: you're homogenizing the Elves of the Dale, and are presuming a view that a War was high on the things the Elves of the Dale wanted to avoid.

Neither
[/quote]

War means contact with outsiders and changes society almost always.  Given the known conservative and isolationist bent of the Dalish Kingdom (and this is something all sides agree on), avoiding war would be a high priority.  Of course the Dalish clearly read Tacitus (or someone like him) when he said, "He who wants peace prepares for war."

There is every reason to think the Dalish would not want war because of what it work against what they wanted to do most, i.e. rebuilt ancient Arlathan with no human contact.

[quote]
[quote]
I just can't see the Elves being that stupid.

Fringe elements, maybe.[/quote]Fringe elements would be all that would be needed to validate those rumors.
[/quote]

I have already admitted that the war might have started with a border skirmish that spiraled out of control, but there is never a hint that even FRINGE elements of the Dalish ever condoned human sacrifice (better to just kill the Shems and be done with it).  I believe the fringe elements in the original post refered to militant isolationist political fringe elements....and Orlais is notorious for using any pretext to expand.


[quote]

[quote]The Elves of the Dales themselves? Not really.[/quote]Why not? Nations do things that, in retrospect, are really stupid all the time. Check out the Economic Crisis.
[/quote]

Sure but in the case of the Economic Crisis, you can reason out what the though pattern was and made sense of it.  There were logical reasons for all the decisions that seem stupid in retrospect.  However, in some cases, there is literally NO reason for a claimed decision to be made.  That's why the Chantry account of Red crossing and the lack of any Dalish account stinks like week old fish.

[quote]
[quote]
There's only a gap if we believe there to be one. I don't see a gap between the two cultures.[/quote]How can you not, when the Dalish themselves acknowledge it and centuries of incredibly different contexts, historical and political, have passed?
[/quote]

The Dalish like all elves have fundamentally human psychologies and given that their forced slavery was far more recent then than now, it stands to reason the Dalish were even more similiar to their human neighbors then, not less.


[quote]
[quote]
Now, I'll concede that the Elves of the Dales may have practiced blood magic. That much seems a likely possibility, due to reasons already stated and the Elven phylactery we find in the Brecilian Ruins -- which suggested that Elves and Humans lived together in peace.

Human sacrifice is another matter entirely, and one I don't see as having ever happened, because of the Dalish Warden's testimony and the phylactery's memories of Elves and Humans living together in peace -- who were then slaughtered by an unknown third party. [/quote]Involuntary blood magic donation and human sacrifice can be equated as one and the same for the purposes of furthering a rumor.
[/quote]

Evidence for this would be nice.

[quote]
The Dalish Warden has no testimony, because the Dalish Warden has no witness or objective authority on the matter, any more than the Chantry's authorities.

The Phylactery's memories are indeterminate and vague, and can't be used to give a defining concept one way or the other.

[/quote]

The Dalish warden knows that the modern Dalish do no such thing, but thge same rumors still abound.  It is far more likely and reasonable to think it's a continuation of the same thing rather than a seismic shift in Dalish Culture that somehow only a handful of Dalish generations have forgotten.

Consider this too:  If the Dalish were really practicing blood sacrifice to the creators, it would be very easy to prove (without magic). Indeed archaelogists can determine if ritual sites were used for human sacrifice thousands of years later...and with only a magnifying glass  (no DNA tests) because of the very unique pattern left on the bone.  That being so,and given that the Chantry had to rewrite their own holy text to justify the Exalted March, doncha think they would be trumpeting this proof all over Thedas if there was any?

I appeal to Occam's razor.  The simpliest explaination is that the Chantry was rumor mongering and nothing more probably knowing it was a lie.

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

That's nice, Polaris.