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[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's a myriad of possibilities for how the rumor may have started.

There doesn't seem to be anything to substantiate the idea that the Dalish sacrifice humans - only the rumors from the Chantry. Given that Alistair mentions that the Qunari are nothing like the stories the Chantry told about them, I wouldn't be surprised if it was done to demonize the elves, but I suppose anything is possible. It could started as a joke, like Merrill's jest to Anders...

Anders: Do the Dalish ever have fancy parties? I always imagined they celebrated most big occasions by eating mushrooms and acorns. And maybe dancing naked around a campfire.

Merrill: You know, I was wondering when the naked dancing was going to start. And the human sacrifice. I mean, you just can't throw a decent party without kidnapping a human child and offering her entrails to the sky gods.

Anders: Really?

Merrill: No.

Had Anders not asked, he would have gone on thinking Dalish dance naked around a campfire and sacrifice humans to sky gods.

Merrill's playing off a well known misconception however, the Dales wouldn't be (if that's how it started).  It's similar to me making a joke based on Canadian stereotypes before Canada was even a nation.

I'm thinking there's a simple reason the rumour started.  The Emerald Knights would kill trespassers, because as we've seen in both games it takes remarkably little to make the Dalish want to kill you, and hang their bodies along the border as a warning.  People who saw them simply didn't get it and thought they'd been victims of ritualistic sacrifice.

One thing I don't get about the Dalish and their history is that they seem determined to maintain policies and practices that have only ever harmed their people.  Take their isolationist policies for example.  Arlathan isolated itself to maintain their immortality and as such didn't see and weren't prepared for the Tevinter invasion.  The Dales isolationist policy is, in all versions of the events, at least partly responsible for the tensions between them and Orlais that led to the war.  Now the Dalish want to continue this policy, but what makes them think anything will be different?  Third times the charm?

Don't you see? The problem was the Humans. Arlathan and the Dales simply weren't isolated enough.

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...
In DA2, the Dalish maintain those same beliefs. A sarcastic Hawke can make a comment to the crafter about the skill and renown of Dalish hunters. The crafter misses the sarcasm and admires how Hawke holds their hunters to such a high regard (Hawke pretty much said he  cannot possibly match up to their skill sarcastically.)

I thought that was a "Charming" response rather then "Sarcastic".

Then there's this off topic comment that popped into my head that is funny.

Hawke: I seem to have forgot my pointy ears and self-righteousness.
Hunter: You....Shemlan!!!!

You're right, that was funny.

[TEWR]

I thought that was a "Charming" response rather then "Sarcastic".

It was.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
One thing I don't get about the Dalish and their history is that they seem determined to maintain policies and practices that have only ever harmed their people.  Take their isolationist policies for example.  Arlathan isolated itself to maintain their immortality and as such didn't see and weren't prepared for the Tevinter invasion.  The Dales isolationist policy is, in all versions of the events, at least partly responsible for the tensions between them and Orlais that led to the war.  Now the Dalish want to continue this policy, but what makes them think anything will be different?  Third times the charm?

Because they're elves! They're superior to us by virtue of being elves. I am merely a dregenlan. You are merely a Shemlen. We can never hope to match the skill of their hunters.

Joking aside, that's exactly their attitude. In Origins when we try to recruit the Dalish, the storyteller is offended and apalled that an outsider can succeed where their hunters failed. And is almost willing to deny the Warden's aid because they are not Dalish.

In DA2, the Dalish maintain those same beliefs. A sarcastic Hawke can make a comment to the crafter about the skill and renown of Dalish hunters. The crafter misses the sarcasm and admires how Hawke holds their hunters to such a high regard (Hawke pretty much said he  cannot possibly match up to their skill sarcastically.)

Or even when you ask Master Ilen where you can get Ironbark, when you offer assistance in clearing out the problem he gets down right offended.  I really want to sympathize with the Dalish (favourite origin in DA:O) but the more I deal with them as a non-elf the more I think that maybe they bring this crap upon themselves.

[Lazy Jer]

DPSSOC wrote...
Or even when you ask Master Ilen where you can get Ironbark, when you offer assistance in clearing out the problem he gets down right offended.  I really want to sympathize with the Dalish (favourite origin in DA:O) but the more I deal with them as a non-elf the more I think that maybe they bring this crap upon themselves.

That more then anything made me want to bring the ironbark back to the Daleish camp and say "Boy you're right.  I Never could have killed all those darkspawn and gotten this ironbark right here.  I guess I'll have to do without."

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Or even when you ask Master Ilen where you can get Ironbark, when you offer assistance in clearing out the problem he gets down right offended.  I really want to sympathize with the Dalish (favourite origin in DA:O) but the more I deal with them as a non-elf the more I think that maybe they bring this crap upon themselves.

That more then anything made me want to bring the ironbark back to the Daleish camp and say "Boy you're right.  I Never could have killed all those darkspawn and gotten this ironbark right here.  I guess I'll have to do without."

Forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder. And it's perfectly true. And I too wanted to take it back and say more or less he same thing. Then add in a "But if only there were some skilled dalish hunters who could gather Ironbark and make sure no Shemlan comes in and uses it for potions."

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I thought that was a "Charming" response rather then "Sarcastic".

It was.

My bad.

[IanPolaris]

Orlais was considered to be an expansionistic, power hungry empire at least 100 years before the incident of Red Crossing.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

I am no fan of the Dalish either. While I think what was done to them was unjustified, they haven't got it through their heads that this isn't Ancient Arlathan anymore, and that much of their arrogance is completely unfounded.

Frankly I don't think in a thousand years (probabaly a lot less) there will BE any elves as a seperate race.

-Polaris

[Blacklash93]

Elves are awesome. Us humans are all racist.

But really to compromise the two stories about the fall of the Dales: Chantry missionaries were sent to convert the Dalish, then instead of "kicking them out" the Dalish proceeded to kill them for attempting to lead the people away from faith in the Elven Pantheon. Templars come to investigate and the findings result in conflict. It escalates to war where the Templars eventually drive them out.

[IanPolaris]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Elves are awesome. Us humans are all racist.

But really to compromise the two stories about the fall of the Dales: Chantry missionaries were sent to convert the Dalish, then instead of "kicking them out" the Dalish proceeded to kill them for attempting to lead the people away from faith in the Elven Pantheon. Templars come to investigate and the findings result in conflict. It escalates to war where the Templars eventually drive them out.

The problem with that theory is that it would imply the Chantry (Templars) started the war with the Dales.  They did not.  Orlais did.  The Chantry only got involved when Orlais begged them to when Val Royaleux was burning.  I still think the most likely basic scenario is that Orlais (who badly needed the extra fertile land after the second blight and was/is aggressively expansionistic anyways) decided they'd annex  choice parts of the Dales, Andraste's Gift or no Andraste's gift, and wound up biting off a lot more than they could chew....and then ran crying to the Chantry to save their proverbial bacon.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Elves are awesome. Us humans are all racist.t.

Nah, it's us dwarves who are awesome.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Nah, it's us dwarves who are awesome.

Damn straight.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first is: a farsighted/political evaluation at the time with the future of the elves (particularly the city eleves) in mind. While you could make a case for writing the losers to be worse than they were for domestic political reasons (they're pure evil), when you intend to live with them for the indefinite/permanent future that's not necessarily a bright idea. Consider the US treatment of Germany and Japan in the post-war: both nations did indisputably epic evil acts and policies, but the post-war relations was not a litany of blood-guilt forever. Seventy years later and we barely care: give it another few hundred and how relevant would it be?

Of course, this is all assuming the rumors themselves spawned from the Chantry itself -- which I find likely as I've stated before. But I'd also say that Divine Renata's decree that Elves should be welcomed in human lands doesn't necessarily mean the rumors didn't start from the Chantry.

The two are not mutually exclusive. You said it yourself, people and nations make boneheaded decisions all the time.

And they're still spreading those rumors, which causes the opinions of the Elves to basically remain the same. That the common people still hear these things and believe they happen -- and we know the modern Dalish don't do these things -- is telling of the fact that the Chantry didn't really fall into that line of thought: trying to make the future generations seem better then the previous.

They still label the Dalish as practitioners of such a thing, and what's to stop the common man from believing that city Elves don't do the same thing? What's to stop them from thinking it's not an Elven thing? And why doesn't the Chantry ever bother to find this stuff out? They're actually really uneducated on Elven culture, as Brother Genitivi had to go and seek out the Dalish just to get a little understanding of their culture.

I'd also suggest that if they were truly caring about the future of the Elves, they'd make an honest effort to improve the lot of the Elves. Chantry decrees are carried out by the nobility, due to how the Chantry is everpresent in the realm of politics in Andrastian Thedas.

And what with the Canticle of Shartan being thrown in with the Dissonant Verses -- insult to injury -- that's caused many people to forget the importance of the Elves in helping bring back the worship of the Maker -- Chantry and commoner alike.

So I'd hardly say that the reason why they didn't verify the rumors' truth -- if there is any to be had -- was due to some sort of caring about how the people would perceive future generations of Elves. They've made it a point to have the people view Elves as less then human by continuing to spread those lies -- along with allowing unfair treatment to continue -- and have done a lot to destroy the Elves' history and culture.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The second is: Who says they didn't? You're demanding an omnibus out of a summary, when 'The Archeological Record of the fall of the Dales, Abduction Edition' could be a separate work we haven't seen. We've hardly had unlimited access to all the books of history in Thedas.

All it would require in what we've read is basically one word, phrase, sentence, or even a paragraph.

"Rumors persisted about the Elves kidnapping and sacrificing humans in rituals made in worship of their gods. These rumors however, as my colleagues who have studied the remains of the Dales have told me, have been proven to be unfounded.: (if they were unfounded)

or...

"Rumors persisted about the Elves kidnapping and sacrificing humans in rituals made in worship of their gods. These rumors, as my colleagues who have studied the remains of the Dales have told me, have been proven to have happened through study of various remains in the Dales. Whether they were done by the Dalish, or other Elven groups, or even people that weren't Elves is unknown." (if they happened)

Or something of the sort. Not quite in that wording mind you, but more or less stating the general idea (factual claims or unfounded rumors).

There's also a human settlement in Halamshiral, and one would also think a Chantry. So they could have studied it. That we don't even get hints at the authenticity of such claims from Sister Petrine -- who prides herself on knowing the truth of all claims -- tells me there's no basis to them. 

She also tells us she was part of a Chantry in Orlais, though is never specific on which one. Still, one would think there'd be some sort of communication between her and her colleagues in the Dales area, despite whatever distance there may have been.

All that said, considering there's a new city built overtop the old, that may have covered up some of the evidence maybe. But still, that doesn't mean archaeological digs and studies couldn't go on. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:54 .

[DarkDragon777]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Elves are terrible.

Fixed

[DarkDragon777]

double post

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[dragonflight288]

That we don't even get hints at the authenticity of such claims from Sister Petrine -- who prides herself on knowing the truth of all claims -- tells me there's no basis to them.

Technically she doesn't pride herself in knowing the truth of all claims. Rather, she prides herself on the fact that she takes the extra time to authenticate the claims. And she also openly admits that her views are considered borderline heretical by the Chantry.

But I do agree that if Sister Petrine, someone who goes out of her way to make sure something is authentic, even regarding the Chantry's most holy artifacts, and all she can say about something is that there were rumors....you can be sure there were rumors. But there isn't much factual evidence to support them. Otherwise she would have said differently.

[TEWR]

Indeed.

What other topics of Elven lore should we discuss? As the thread title says, this thread was intended to exist as one where all Elven lore/history could be discussed.

[Dintonta]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands

This was 3 years prior to the Divine Age -- the first Age of the Chantry Calendar -- happening and a little over a 100 years before the incident at Red Crossing.

I'm curious about "... by constant pressures from the Dales to the east..." because if I'm not mistaken (I'm not english native speaker) it doesn't actually match with the usual idea the Dales inhabitants were aloof and kept with themselves.
Whence did that text come from?

[TEWR]

DA wiki article called Ages, and I'm reasonably sure it also came from the Timeline of Thedas article a gaming website made prior to DAII's release.

Now, while your interpretation that the Dalish were not being aloof is certainly valid -- as it isn't totally clear -- the text seems to suggest that Orlais' expansionism was more the problem then the Dalish were, and the Dalish were keeping Kordillius Drakon from accomplishing his goal (having everyone bow down to his rule whilst worshipping the Maker).

[Dintonta]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DA wiki article called Ages, and I'm reasonably sure it also came from the Timeline of Thedas article a gaming website made prior to DAII's release.

Sorry, I meant "Who in the world of Thedas wrote this chronicle"?
Just to know more about his/her POV...

...Now, while your interpretation that the Dalish were not being aloof is certainly valid -- as it isn't totally clear -- the text seems to suggest that Orlais' expansionism was more the problem then the Dalish were and the Dalish were keeping Kordillius Drakon from accomplishing his goal...

IIRC... (sorry to go through this again but I'm never really sure I read correctly english , and since I don't want to repeat it before each of the following statements, please consider they are all preceded by a sincere IIRC:innocent:)

The text doesn't seem to put a judgement upon Drakkon politic, it just states that the "pressure" of the Dales prevented him to indulge in his expansionist ambitions toward the North of Orlais (while the Dales are actually situated to the south and east of this country), without expressing clearly why this pressure was in place already.
Also, I wonder a bit about the use of a word such "pressure" : Is it truly fit to describe an only defensive attitude?

...and the Dalish were keeping Kordillius Drakon from accomplishing his goal (having everyone bow down to his rule whilst worshipping the Maker).

Isn't the text stating that Drakon made the Chantry as a tool to answer the already existing "pressure" from the Dales (hindering whatever plans of conquest he had for another third country) and not that the Dales were already defending against an aggressive proselytism from a Chantry which didn't existed yet?

[TEWR]

Dintonta wrote...

The text doesn't seem to put a judgement upon Drakkon politic, it just states that the "pressure" of the Dales prevented him to indulge in his expansionist ambitions toward the North of Orlais (while the Dales are actually situated to the south and east of this country), without expressing clearly why this pressure was in place already.
Also, I wonder a bit about the use of a word such "pressure" : Is it truly fit to describe an only defensive attitude?

True, the Dales rests to the south of what is now Orlais, but consider this: He was trying to expand northward.

There's no reason to assume he wasn't also trying to expand southward, eastward, and westward. At the same time? No. But his efforts to expand south and east were probably hindered by the Dales refusing to bow down to his rule -- assuming he was asking them to be a vassal of the Orlesian Empire.

Although without a map of Orlais during Drakon's time, it becomes harder to pinpoint things. Even when posting map images on here, the BSN tends to shrink the image to be too small to read. 

If they were refusing, then there was probably a fear that war would break out. Which would mean his efforts would have to be focused on them, were that to happen -- it didn't, but he didn't know that. As a result, he couldn't wage a two-pronged campaign.

True enough, his ambitions had to be halted when the Second Blight began, which began 5 years after the official formation of the Chantry.

Also, Drakon seems to have unofficially formed the Chantry long before he officially built it.

With time, the Cult of Andraste spread and grew, and the Chant of Light took form. Sing this chant in the four corners of Thedas, it was said, and the world would gain the Maker's attention at last. As the Chant of Light spread, the Cult of Andraste became known as the Andrastian Chantry. Those who converted to the Chantry's beliefs found it their mission to spread Andraste's word.

There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself.

--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi

 
I also remember reading that the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux was already being built at this time -- perhaps near a decade earlier. If I'm right, then that further showcases that the formation of the Chantry was done prior to the "pressure" from the Dales.

I'll try and dig up a source for that.

Found it!

Kordilius Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world.

In -3 Ancient, the temple was completed. There, in its heart, Drakon knelt before the eternal flame of Andraste and was crowned ruler of the Empire of Orlais. His first act as Emperor: To declare the Chantry as the established Andrastian religion of the Empire.

It took three years and several hundred votes before Olessa of Montsimmard was elected to lead the new Chantry. Upon her coronation as Divine, she took the name Justinia, in honor of the disciple who recorded Andraste's songs. In that moment, the ancient era ended and the Divine Age began.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar

Of interest are the bolded portions. It was Drakon's goal that every nation be converted to worshipping the Maker, that the whole world be a part of the religion.

That is very telling. Drakon couldn't get the Dales to acquiesce to his desires, and they were preventing him from achieving his goal.

Dintonta wrote...

Sorry, I meant "Who in the world of Thedas wrote this chronicle"?
Just to know more about his/her POV...

Brother Genitivi touches upon it in the History of the Chantry: Chapters 1-4. More so the last chapter, of which I posted a snippet.

Dintonta wrote...

Isn't the text stating that Drakon made the Chantry as a tool to answer the already existing "pressure" from the Dales (hindering whatever plans of conquest he had for another third country) and not that the Dales were already defending against an aggressive proselytism from a Chantry which didn't existed yet?

Well, unofficially the Chantry -- and indeed, the rekindled belief in the Maker -- existed and was spreading. It just wasn't a formalized religion.

No doubt people were trying to convert the Dales.

===============================================================================

Which makes me want to mention something: earlier in the thread it was stated that border disputes were inevitable in a land where border markings weren't clearly defined.

To that I say this: The Dales were given to the Elves two centuries prior to Orlais' official formation, so the borders of the Dales were officially drawn up by either A) the Elves or the very people that handed the Elves the Dales.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[Robeus]

Dragon Age beginning Human and Elves were living together peacefully. The elves were the ones in charge and very powerful. But, something attack them both or something brought them down. The dwarves were different too. It left a big puzzle now.

[dragonflight288]

Dintonta wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands

This was 3 years prior to the Divine Age -- the first Age of the Chantry Calendar -- happening and a little over a 100 years before the incident at Red Crossing.

I'm curious about "... by constant pressures from the Dales to the east..." because if I'm not mistaken (I'm not english native speaker) it doesn't actually match with the usual idea the Dales inhabitants were aloof and kept with themselves.
Whence did that text come from?

It could mean that Drakon wanted access to the sea routes and the coast. But those areas belonged to the Dales. He'd need that land if he wanted an effective navy.

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed.

What other topics of Elven lore should we discuss? As the thread title says, this thread was intended to exist as one where all Elven lore/history could be discussed.

The location of Arlathan is something I've wondered about.

[Dintonta]

I put here the text which puzzled me, just as a reminder :

Dintonta wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1192
TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands

This was 3 years prior to the Divine Age -- the first Age of the Chantry Calendar -- happening and a little over a 100 years before the incident at Red Crossing.

Now, I try to put into sequence events the way they are described in it :

1) Drakon conquered several city-states and submitted others in the neighborhood of the city-state of Orlais.
2) Drakon was crowned emperor in Val-Royeaux (therefore giving birth to the orlesian empire in the place of a collection of previously existing city-states.)
3) Drakon manifested the ambition to conquer the Free Marches as well (to the North of Orlais.)
4) This ambition was confounded (in which sense : confused or utterly thwarted?) by "constant pressures" from the Dales (to the East) : I'm sorry, in my previous post I missed both the adjective and the plural, and I think they may have meaning.
5) As a reaction to this hindrance (it's how I interpret the "...Dales to the east, so Emperor..."), Drakon officialize the cult of Andraste.
6) Missionaries appointed by Drakon are commanded to proselytize other lands (which ones?)

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

True, the Dales rests to the south of Orlais, but consider this: He was trying to expand northward. There's no reason to assume he wasn't also trying to expand southward, eastward, and westward. At the same time? No. But his efforts to expand south were probably hindered by the Dales refusing to bow down to his rule -- assuming he was asking them to be a vassal of the Orlesian Empire.

OK, for now, let's consider the enmity between Drakon and the Dales a consequence of a refusal from the late to submit to the first.
Since there is no mention of the Dales before #4, in the text above, we have to assume that if their grudge originated before the "constant pressures" step, it was during or between the previous events (or before event #1).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dintonta wrote...
Sorry, I meant "Who in the world of Thedas wrote this chronicle"?
Just to know more about his/her POV...

Brother Genitivi touches upon it in the History of the Chantry: Chapters 1-4.
More so the last chapter, of which I posted a snippet.

Since Brother Genetivi didn't seem to me a very biased person, at least on such a matter (I may have missed something while playing, though) I would be inclined to see the fact he didn't mentioned the origin of such enmity before #4 as a lack of information from his part rather than a deliberate choice to hide it or (since he looked quite torough in his researches) an uncaring overlook of said information.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were refusing, then there was probably a fear that war would break out. Which would mean his efforts would have to be focused on them, were that to happen -- it didn't, but he didn't know that. As a result, he couldn't wage a two-pronged campaign.

That's where the plural and the adjective "constant" of "...constant pressures from the Dales to the east..." seem not to fit in, at least for me...I may be wrong but this expression seems more to refer to actual events such as actions taken by the Dales than to a supposition of a danger, conceptualized by Drakon, of what the Dales could do would he left Orlais' eastern border unprotected.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

...Well, unofficially the Chantry -- and indeed, the rekindled belief in the Maker -- existed and was spreading. It just wasn't a formalized religion.

No doubt people were trying to convert the Dales.

No doubt indeed! But the specific preachers Brother Genetivi mention in #6 are the one and only he tells us as a political answer to the specific Drakon's Dales problem.
Again, I assume he wouldn't lie or overlook an information he would have about previous preachers sent for the same reasons.Since it isn't explicit to which countries they where sent, it's difficult to know if their mission was already to gather the support of other human kingdoms (before the exalted march against the elves) or to stress a
(previous) demand of submission adressed to the Dales with aggressive new religious arguments (up to the point to provoke a pretext for war).

My point is to highlight that from Genetivi's record strictly we cannot read that Drakon had an obvious specific "elven problem" before #4. Actually we can even read a lack of specific information in that sense...
The only reason why we are so tempted to extrapolate beyond the already given informations to fill that gap is a judgement we make on what we know of the character of Drakon and his ambitions. Which is not exactly fair
(I mean, he could have been the worst criminal in Thedas history and yet not be accountable for one specific crime we would charge him for...)
He could even have wanted to conquer the Dales right after the Free Marches, it doesn't explain why the first
record of a relation between him and the Dales actually put him in a position to note actual threatening actions undertaken by the elves.

But here you may have found an answer :

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Found it!

Kordilius Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world.
[...]

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar

That text from sister Petrine tells us that when Drakon came to power some of the southern city-states were at war (with each other, I suppose). It gives us an insight about the state of the land which would become the empire of Orlais at the time of its formation. It may not have been a collection of peaceful cities conquered by a power-hungry war-monger, but a collection of a great many conflicts already started and gathered into one empire by an overly confident young politician...

What about the elves then?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
===============================================================================

Which makes me want to mention something: earlier in the thread it was stated that border disputes were inevitable in a land where border markings weren't clearly defined.

To that I say this: The Dales were given to the Elves two centuries prior to Orlais' official formation, so the borders of the Dales were officially drawn up by either A) the Elves or the very people that handed the Elves the Dales.

Who are those people? Humans? That is to suppose that humans form an homogenous people...
Maybe the Dales were granted to the elves for their help against the Tevinter Imperium, but are we sure that no humans already lived here? And if it'd be the case are those humans to agree with those who rewarded the elves?
The fact we know nothing about it could be explained by the neighboring city-states giving home to those humans, but would it be so surprising that in those cities a grudge was held against elves, up to the point skirmishes were usual?
When Drakon conquered those cities, perhaps he inherited their latent conflict over borders with the Dales.
To me, that could be an explanation for the whole "constant pressures" thing...

Modifié par Dintonta, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .