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[dragonflight288]

Who are those people? Humans? That is to suppose that humans form an homogenous people...
Maybe the Dales were granted to the elves for their help against the Tevinter Imperium, but are we sure that no humans already lived here? And if it'd be the case are those humans to agree with those who rewarded the elves?
The fact we know nothing about it could be explained by the neighboring city-states giving home to those humans, but would it be so surprising that in those cities a grudge was held against elves, up to the point skirmishes were usual?
When Drakon conquered those cities, perhaps he inherited their latent conflict over borders with the Dales.
To me, that could be an explanation for the whole "constant pressures" thing...

That does make sense. Ferelden has border skirmishes in an epilogue where the Dalish are given their own land because of the racial tensions between humans who aren't used to elves being equal or above servants, and elves who still resent humans for taking away their homeland twice. If Zathrian is Keeper, it results in a war, but if his first is keeper, she is the only one capable of keeping the peace between the clans and Ferelden humans.

[Chipaway111]

DuskWarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed.

What other topics of Elven lore should we discuss? As the thread title says, this thread was intended to exist as one where all Elven lore/history could be discussed.

The location of Arlathan is something I've wondered about.

Oh! This! This!

I remember reading some really good theories on Arlathan in a thread relating to the Primeval Thaig, now it's something of an obsession of mine, as it is though, I'm not very good at speculation. Someone else with a good knowledge of the Dalish and their ancient lore want to jump in here?

One thing that has me really interested however is exactly why Arlathan was sunk, obliterating it completely. Some could argue that the Tevinter Magisters did it out of malice but it doesn't make sense. Would they be so arrogant to destroy a society that had thousands of years of magical knowledge at its disposal? The Tevinters had only just come into that sort of magic themselves, no?

[Chipaway111]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Chipaway111 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed.

What other topics of Elven lore should we discuss? As the thread title says, this thread was intended to exist as one where all Elven lore/history could be discussed.

The location of Arlathan is something I've wondered about.

Oh! This! This!

I remember reading some really good theories on Arlathan in a thread relating to the Primeval Thaig, now it's something of an obsession of mine, as it is though, I'm not very good at speculation. Someone else with a good knowledge of the Dalish and their ancient lore want to jump in here?

One thing that has me really interested however is exactly why Arlathan was sunk, obliterating it completely. Some could argue that the Tevinter Magisters did it out of malice but it doesn't make sense. Would they be so arrogant to destroy a society that had thousands of years of magical knowledge at its disposal? The Tevinters had only just come into that sort of magic themselves, no?

This is something that puzzles me too and I find the whole thing very interesting...
There have been several posts on the matter on an older thread on the forum 'environment thread'.

The location of Arlathan was supposed to be here:

http://social.biowar...dex/11629862/20

You mean the Arlathan forest? It just seems so obvious to have it there, unless of course it's made to seem that way and deludes people like myself into beliving it can't be there because it's so clear... and then, arrgh. 

[TEWR]

Dintonta wrote...

Now, I try to put into sequence events the way they are described in it :

1) Drakon conquered several city-states and submitted others in the neighborhood of the city-state of Orlais.
2) Drakon was crowned emperor in Val-Royeaux (therefore giving birth to the orlesian empire in the place of a collection of previously existing city-states.)
3) Drakon manifested the ambition to conquer the Free Marches as well (to the North of Orlais.)
4) This ambition was confounded (in which sense : confused or utterly thwarted?) by "constant pressures" from the Dales (to the East) : I'm sorry, in my previous post I missed both the adjective and the plural, and I think they may have meaning.
5) As a reaction to this hindrance (it's how I interpret the "...Dales to the east, so Emperor..."), Drakon officialize the cult of Andraste.
6) Missionaries appointed by Drakon are commanded to proselytize other lands (which ones?)

Were that snippet I posted the only thing we had to go on, this would be the most logical conclusion of the series of events, yes.

However, the other bits of lore I posted call for revising of this sequence of events, as they paint a different picture.

Since Brother Genetivi didn't seem to me a very biased person, at least on such a matter (I may have missed something while playing, though) I would be inclined to see the fact he didn't mentioned the origin of such enmity before #4 as a lack of information from his part rather than a deliberate choice to hide it or (since he looked quite torough in his researches) an uncaring overlook of said information.

I think you may be misunderstanding. Brother Genitivi did not write this:

1192
TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands

That was from the Ages article of the DA wiki, as I said.

Brother Genitivi wrote this:

With time, the Cult of Andraste spread and grew, and the Chant of Light took form. Sing this chant in the four corners of Thedas, it was said, and the world would gain the Maker's attention at last. As the Chant of Light spread, the Cult of Andraste became known as the Andrastian Chantry. Those who converted to the Chantry's beliefs found it their mission to spread Andraste's word.

There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself.

--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi

No doubt indeed! But the specific preachers Brother Genetivi mention in #6 are the one and only he tells us as a political answer to the specific Drakon's Dales problem.

 
Again, I think you may have misunderstood my post up above. When I said I posted a snippet of Genitivi's text on the matter, I didn't mean the original thing you quoted me on.

Who are those people? Humans?

I would assume so yes, as it was the Humans that followed Andraste who gave the land to the Elves. So either those Humans drew up a border of land or the Elves did upon settling in the Dales.

Maybe the Dales were granted to the elves for their help against the Tevinter Imperium, but are we sure that no humans already lived here?

The Dales were indeed given to the Elves for their part in the war against the Imperium.

And I'm reasonably sure that no humans lived there, as no settlements were built there until the Elves built Halamshiral. Then after the Fall of the Dales, coastal settlements were built by the Humans. 

DuskWarden wrote...

The location of Arlathan is something I've wondered about.

There's not much on that for me to draw any discussion on potential sites for it, really, but I'll see what lore I can dig up.

[Chipaway111]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@chipaway111

Here is a link for the elven history. According to that Arlathan was in a forest:

http://social.biowar...ry_of_the_Elves

It only says that what little they know of Arlathan is wrapped in legends, I didn't find any mention of it being a forest but chances are I wasn't looking hard enough, I shall keep looking!

[LobselVith8]

"The final tale of the Black Fox tells of him and his band searching for the sunken city of the elves deep in the forest of Arlathan, where he parted with this jerkin in a less than voluntary manner." - the Black Fox's Jerkin

[TEWR]

http://images.wikia....vinter(DrB).jpg



Regarding DuskWarden’s query into the location of Arlathan, I’d say that it either rests in the Arlathan Forest – the obvious conclusion one would come to – or somewhere in the area of the Hundred Pillars. We know the Elves had contact with the humans from the Minrathous area – per the Ages article on the DA wiki – so we must logically assume that Arlathan rested somewhere close.
 
Indeed, the Ages article says that Elves from Arlathan would go and barter/interact with the humans, and when they returned found themselves growing old and sick with disease and frailty.
 
Now, I had a nice long rant typed out… but the Bioware server decided to go down for maintenance. Or just decided to be impossible. Either way, I lost my post, so what I’m about to say will be considerably shorter then what I originally said:
 
We know that the Black Fox’s last journey – according to legend – was one where he ventured to the Arlathan Forest in search of the namesake city.
 
The final tale of the Black Fox tells of him and his band searching for the sunken city of the elves deep in the forest of Arlathan, where he parted with this jerkin in a less than voluntary manner.
 
Now, this suggests that something violent lurks in the forest. It could be Tal-Vashoth. It could be monsters, new and old. It could even be Elven spirits or a Varterral.
 
Who knows? I personally like to think that Centaurs – once friends to the Elves – lurk in the forest, now protecting the remains of the Elven empire within from any and all outsiders not of Elven blood. And maybe they fought with some Elves that wanted to stand and fight the Imperium, but failed to make a difference. So now they protect it, as a means of penance.
 
But that’s just me. There’s no lore on Centaurs in the DA lore – so far as I’m aware, anyway – but it’d be interesting I think.
 
We also have Tamlen’s statements when he touches the tainted Eluvian.
 
It’s… showing me places. I can see… a city… underground… and… there’s a great blackness.
 
That tells me that the tainted Eluvian did at one point lead to Arlathan, now resting deep beneath the earth.
 
Finally, the Sorrows of Arlathan and the Ancient Elven Armor tell us facts about the ancient civilization of Arlathan – incase people were skeptical on Ancient Elven civilization before, considering Dalish lore is had in scraps.
 
Before the fall of Arlathan, even before Arlathan itself, the civilization of the Elves stretched across all of Thedas like a great, indolent cat.
 
This armor was made for temple guards in a time when the Creators still spoke to the Elves. The techniques of its forging, even the name of the metal it is forged from, have long since faded from memory.
 
Now, ignoring how the armor is made of veridium – which is a well known metal in Thedas, and one the Dalish use, making it a bit silly when just having the armor be made of a new and unique metal would’ve done the trick – this tells us that the Elves had temples to the Creators.
 
That’s to be expected really. One could hazard a guess – and indeed, it’d be a logical one based on game evidence – that the Elven ruins we found in the Brecilian Forest for the Dalish quest given by Zathrian were a temple/tomb meant for worship of the Creators.
 
Though I suppose that the Elven word for Veridium is what’s forgotten, not the name of the metal itself. Anyway…
 
The Sorrows of Arlathan bow states this:
 
Ancient carvings cover the limbs of this bow. It looks to be some form of Elven, either a poem or a prayer of some sort.
 
Which also supports the idea of great temples being built to the Creators.
 
Again, it’s all to be expected really. But it’s Elven lore dealing with Arlathan, so I feel the need to mention it.

And the stuff on these links is worth a read as well:

http://dragonage.wik...e-Ages#Pre-Ages

http://dragonage.wik...athan:_Part_Two

http://dragonage.wik...athan:_Part_One

So, that's really all we have to go on. Until we get more on the subject of the city of Arlathan, I can't give off any more then a general area of where it's located -- that general area being.... well... Tevinter, which is all we've ever had to go on.

[Dintonta]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think you may be misunderstanding. Brother Genitivi did not write this:

1192TE:
Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches
are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands

That was from the Ages article of the DA wiki, as I said.

My mistake, I'm sorry...

My original question...

Dintonta wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
DA wiki article called Ages, and I'm reasonably sure it also came from the Timeline of Thedas article a gaming website made prior to DAII's release.

Sorry, I meant "Who in the world of Thedas wrote this chronicle"?
Just to know more about his/her POV...

...Still remains however... From what I see from this Ages chronicle, it looks more like a synthesis of Codex entries and other scraps of information than actual "word of god".
It would be interresting to know the in-game source of it.

On a foot-note, I don't think it actually contradicts the other informations you gave, it just add other nuances to their interpretation...

And I'm reasonably sure that no humans lived there, as no settlements were built there until the Elves built Halamshiral. Then after the Fall of the Dales, coastal settlements were built by the Humans.

I would guess the only settlements noted on the map are towns or cities (In the case of Ferelden, villages like Lothering, Redcliffe, Haven or Honnleath are represented only because they were on the warden's way.)
The ancient Gaul was very populated compared to the european standard of its time, but it has only few major settlements : The people were spread into numerous villages and hamlets, often under the cover of the forest.
I had this example in mind while suggesting that there could have been already human people in the place of what would become the Dales, before it were granted to the elves by other humans...
I find it quite reasonable since we know the Dales had fertile lands and a long coast. There could have been a great number of tiny farming and fishing communities which stayed out of notice (a bit like Haven, which btw is not very far...), while the first noticeable settlements which were built after the fall of the Dales were actually the result of a much more organized empire.
On the same line of thoughts, a massive number of human refugees from the Dales arriving in the southern city-states of the future Orlais may have provided an explanation for their political instability...

Of course, all this do nothing more than extrapolates from what informations we have, too...
But, personally, I slightly prefer this assumption because, firstly, it doesn't discard any of the informations we have; secondly, because the way I see it, it gives a new twist to the story of the Fall of Dales without painting any of both sides with too stark colors...

Many thanks to you, The Ethereal Writer Redux, for digging for us the archives of the whole DAverse, and for this excellent thread!!

Modifié par Dintonta, 20 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[BKTZLNT]

Arlathan is the Black City.
And the race that follows the Qun (forgot its name) were demigod guardians of Arlathan/Black City; them being simple tools/guardians, the Qun being their "programming" of their duties to protecting Arlathan. 
The gods of Tevinter and the gods of the Elvhan are the same. 
The Elvhan lived for so long because they were effectively the "angels" of the Old Gods.

Aaaand the original darkspawn were another niche race in Arlathan who lost their "Qun".

This is all pure head-canon and prayed-for what-ifs, mind you

[TEWR]

Dintonta wrote...

[My mistake, I'm sorry...

My original question...

...Still remains however...

In-universe, Brother Genitivi and Sister Petrine come the closest to that general gist. They didn't write that gist, but they come the closest to being an in-game author of it..
 
However, they go far more in-depth then that blurb from the Ages article.

Here's what Brother Genitivi wrote:

With time, the Cult of Andraste spread and grew, and the Chant of Light took form. Sing this chant in the four corners of Thedas, it was said, and the world would gain the Maker's attention at last. As the Chant of Light spread, the Cult of Andraste became known as the Andrastian Chantry. Those who converted to the Chantry's beliefs found it their mission to spread Andraste's word.

There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself.

--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi

and Sister Petrine's part is this:

Kordilius Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world.

In -3 Ancient, the temple was completed. There, in its heart, Drakon knelt before the eternal flame of Andraste and was crowned ruler of the Empire of Orlais. His first act as Emperor: To declare the Chantry as the established Andrastian religion of the Empire.

It took three years and several hundred votes before Olessa of Montsimmard was elected to lead the new Chantry. Upon her coronation as Divine, she took the name Justinia, in honor of the disciple who recorded Andraste's songs. In that moment, the ancient era ended and the Divine Age began.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar

If you take the two of these together, you get the same thing -- more or less -- that the Ages article had. Admittedly, the Ages article isn't very clear enough on it, and thus leads one to believe what you believed.

From what I see from this Ages chronicle, it looks more like a synthesis of Codex entries and other scraps of information than actual "word of god".

The majority of the info on that article is derived from the Prima Ultimania Guide to DAO IIRC, which -- if it's anything like DAII's Guide -- has lore in the back of the book.

I would guess the only settlements noted on the map are towns or cities (In the case of Ferelden, villages like Lothering, Redcliffe, Haven or Honnleath are represented only because they were on the warden's way.)

This is true. Little spit villages wouldn't really be worth the time to put on a map.

That said, there's a distinct difference between human architecture and Elven architecture, so I imagine if the Dales were pre-inhabited we would've been told such.

Dintonta wrote...
Many thanks to you, The Ethereal Writer Redux, for digging for us the archives of the whole DAverse, and for this excellent thread!!

You made some interesting points -- especially with the Gauls reference -- and I'm happy to have made a thread you enjoyed.

What can I say, when I get a bit bored my mind begins to speculate and I create new threads.

I'm thinking tomorrow I'll make the Dwarven edition.

[TEWR]

BKTZLNT wrote...

Arlathan is the Black City.

I have my doubts on this, though there's nothing to suggest otherwise.... yet.

And the race that follows the Qun (forgot its name) were demigod guardians of Arlathan/Black City; them being simple tools/guardians, the Qun being their "programming" of their duties to protecting Arlathan. 

That'd actually be kinda lulz-worthy.

But nope, the Kossith -- and all Qunari, really -- aren't automatons.

The gods of Tevinter and the gods of the Elvhan are the same. 

 
Probably not, as there are 9 Elven Gods and only 7 Old Gods.

This is all pure head-canon and prayed-for what-ifs, mind you

I haz burstid ur booble.

[TEWR]

More Elven lore and history discussions must take place. So say I, the King of the Dwarves.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

More Elven lore and history discussions must take place. So say I, the King of the Dwarves.

Better gather the assembly since I'm the king of the dwarves.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Better gather the assembly since I'm the king of the dwarves.

Can't. I disbanded them. We're at war against the Darkspawn, and they were doing more harm then good.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Better gather the assembly since I'm the king of the dwarves.

Can't. I disbanded them. We're at war against the Darkspawn, and they were doing more harm then good.

Well that's good. As a paragon I was going to do that anyway.

[Merrin]

When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby.

Excuse me, but where is this mentioned except wiki? I just can't find this in game's tlk.

UPD: The issue is resolved.

Modifié par Merrin, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Well that's good. As a paragon I was going to do that anyway.

Those stuffed-shirt deshyrs now know who really wields the power in Orzammar!

[TEWR]

To give this thread a bump, I'd like to discuss more Elven lore.

Specifically, anyone who doubts the validity of a Varterral being a construct and instead is just some sort of animal. The journal of DAII -- written from a 3rd person omniscient point of view I'd guess -- says for the Act 2 Herbalist's Tasks quest that the Varterrals are an ancient Elven construct.

So if anyone doubted the claims that the Varterrals were driven to fight against the very people they were sworn to defend, then the journal entry proves that they are Elven constructs.

I bring this up because I remembered having a discussion about that aspect with another poster in another thread -- may have been this one. I'm unsure who it was -- either MisterJB or General User -- but I thought I should mention it while it was fresh on my mind.

[LobselVith8]

Interesting commentary on the Varterrals, Ethereal. I'm curious about what kind of ancient elven magic created them...

I wonder if the Varterrals were ineffective against the Tevinter Imperium?

[dragonflight288]

I think what created Varterrals may be a similar process to the creation of golems. Or not. I don't know enough, but there's a decent chance that blood magic was involved. Or death.

Or maybe neither. Not enough information.

[MisterJB]

In the world of Thedas, it is quite possible the Varterral is an elven construct. It is, however, a questionable part of its mythos. I see no evidence of the Varterral being anything other than a rare, territorial animal. Even its mysterious "ressurection" in DA2 could be blamed on something as mundane as a mating pair.

The journal is not reliable evidence. Since it is updated as Hawke acquire quests and information, a reasonable claim could be made that he is the one writing in it and he simply heard Merril claim the Varterral is an elven construct or just read it in a book.

[Xilizhra]

I see no evidence of the Varterral being anything other than a rare, territorial animal.

The fact that it's animated wood isn't a bit strange?

[MisterJB]

Is there any basis for that claim other than elven legends?