384 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Is there any basis for that claim other than elven legends?

I believe I can look at it and see that it's made of wood.

[MisterJB]

That's not compelling evidence. I could look at a rynho's horn and think it is made of bone but I would be wrong. It's actually composed of keratin.
I, for one, don't see anything remotely arboreal in a Varterral.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

That's not compelling evidence. I could look at a rynho's horn and think it is made of bone but I would be wrong. It's actually composed of keratin.
I, for one, don't see anything remotely arboreal in a Varterral.

So it's some sort of spider creature that looks and feels like wood and generally avoids attacking Dalish but will attack anyone else... that matches the varterral lore only by coincidence?

[MisterJB]

I can't even imagine how you would know what a Varterral "feels" like but, for the sake of argument, let's assume it does look like wood. The acient elves could have simply looked at it and created a myth of how their gods crafted the Varterral from trees.

As for its behavior, the three Varterrals we killed all attacked dalish. Since they were tought to be extinct until very recently, the claim that they protect/avoid the dalish most likely comes from legends of a people who can't even speak their own language because so much of their culture has been lost.

[Xilizhra]

From what Marethari said, it seemed as though this varterral had been on Sundermount before and hadn't attacked until right then. I'm not entirely sure why you're inventing conjecture to make the Dalish more wrong, I admit.

[MisterJB]

Maybe because they didn't get close enough to its nest.

I'm questioning the mythos of Dragon Age. Why are only the Human mythos like the Maker or the Black City of questionable nature?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Maybe because they didn't get close enough to its nest.

I'm questioning the mythos of Dragon Age. Why are only the Human mythos like the Maker or the Black City of questionable nature?

Because they were obviously created by people with agendas. The entire Chantry's existence was due to a power play by Kordilius Drakon, and the Chant of Light consists of whatever happens to be politically expedient at the time. And in regards to "human mythos," I've never seen anyone focused on questioning the Chasind or Avvars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2012 - 03:58 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Maybe because they didn't get close enough to its nest.

I'm questioning the mythos of Dragon Age. Why are only the Human mythos like the Maker or the Black City of questionable nature?

Because they were obviously created by people with agendas. The entire Chantry's existence was due to a power play by Kordilius Drakon, and the Chant of Light consists of whatever happens to be politically expedient at the time. And in regards to "human mythos," I've never seen anyone focused on questioning the Chasind or Avvars.

MisterJB has a point, all lore should be taken with a grain of salt unless they are backed up by first hand accounts of said events.

[MisterJB]

And the Varterral as well as "Immortality" could be fairy tales told by Keepers who have reasons to wish to make their young believe they are "special" somehow as well justify their violence and isolationism towards humans in order to hide the inherent racism of the elven race.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

And the Varterral as well as "Immortality" could be fairy tales told by Keepers who have reasons to wish to make their young believe they are "special" somehow as well justify their violence and isolationism towards humans in order to hide the inherent racism of the elven race.

Dalish live for a century or two, longer than could be reasonably inferred by simple environmental factors. And Zathrian's remarkably long lifespan was noted as being "unusual," not unheard of. The immortality thing is very likely true.

[MisterJB]

I don't believe we know the average lifespan of a dalish elf, only that they live longer which could mean a few decades and be blamed on an healthier environment.

It's possible they were immortal but I am going to question it. The only known cases of "immortality" are Zathrian, Avernus and the Darkspawn, all of which were achieved through Blood Magic.
Unless the Keepers perform unholy rituals that we don't know of, I find it very hard to believe that elve are biologically immortal and this is automatically weakened if they spend time near humans.
I find it more likely this to be an excuse to justify their isolationism.

[Xilizhra]

Lanaya implies that there have been examples other than Zathrian, and we have no information on whether or not they were all using blood magic.

[Knight of Dane]

What about the Frostback Guardian? Isn't he immortal?
Oghren implies if you take him that the Mountain is filled with lyrium, perhaps it doesn't necessarily take blood but just a vast amount of magical sources to work it.
The Arlathan Elves traded with the Dwarves as we know from the Dalish Origin, and since humans weren't there in that time and the Elves practiced openly with magic they could have had an endless supply of lyrium traded from the dwarves.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 12 août 2012 - 11:48 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The journal is not reliable evidence. Since it is updated as Hawke acquire quests and information, a reasonable claim could be made that he is the one writing in it and he simply heard Merril claim the Varterral is an elven construct or just read it in a book.

Considering that, as I said, the journal is from the Herbalist's Tasks quest of Act 2 and updates as soon as you acquire the quest from Solivitus, I think it is reliable. Because you were never told by anyone at that point that the Varterral is an Elven construct and yet the journal states from a 3rd person omniscient point of view that it is one.

And using headcanon to justify a line of thought doesn't really work. Saying "Hawke could've heard it elsewhere or read it elsewhere when he got that quest, but before doing Merrill's quest" isn't a good argument.

Further, Merrill states that the Varterrals normally allow people to pass. Not that they were told in stories to let people pass, but that they normally do so. As a result, this makes it seem as if Merrill's clan has had previous contact with Varterrals.

Yes Ariane says they're a legend, but Ariane comes from a clan that isn't Merrill's clan. So using one clan's experiences and applying it to all the clans doesn't seem very sound, given that new information is only told to the Elves at every Arlathvhen.

MisterJB wrote...

As for its behavior, the three Varterrals we killed all attacked dalish.

Two. Two Varterrals. And it didn't attack Zevran, who has Dalish blood coursing through his veins. 

MisterJB wrote...

Since they were tought to be extinct until very recently, the claim that they protect/avoid the dalish most likely comes from legends of a people who can't even speak their own language because so much of their culture has been lost.

Doubtful, given that we have evidence that Fen'Harel is real and thus the entire Elven pantheon is real. And since they're real, then the story has something to support it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2012 - 02:28 .

[Knight of Dane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doubtful, given that we have evidence that Fen'Harel is real and thus the entire Elven pantheon is real. And since they're real, then the story has something to support it.

Hey, just out of interest: What evidence is that TEWR?

[TEWR]

The Emergent Compendium, a book that is seemingly alive and will create various phrases in cipher form.

[Knight of Dane]

From the Emporium?

[TEWR]

Yup, that's the one. The cipher is one that replaces one letter with the letter that was 3 before it -- and then it's written backwards. So, for example:

-Two shadowed spheres among stars subtitled "aboofqp iboxE'kbC px bpmfizb kX"

becomes An eclipse as Fen'Harel stirred.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2012 - 05:20 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Considering that, as I said, the journal is from the Herbalist's Tasks quest of Act 2 and updates as soon as you acquire the quest from Solivitus, I think it is reliable. Because you were never told by anyone at that point that the Varterral is an Elven construct and yet the journal states from a 3rd person omniscient point of view that it is one.

And using headcanon to justify a line of thought doesn't really work. Saying "Hawke could've heard it elsewhere or read it elsewhere when he got that quest, but before doing Merrill's quest" isn't a good argument.

The journal is a tool the game developers use to remind players of what we are supposed to do and it's based on what we know or are expected to.
But it's not the codex and it's not in-game evidence. It doesn't contribute to the lore of DA.

Further, Merrill states that the Varterrals normally allow people to pass. Not that they were told in stories to let people pass, but that they normally do so. As a result, this makes it seem as if Merrill's clan has had previous contact with Varterrals.

Yes Ariane says they're a legend, but Ariane comes from a clan that isn't Merrill's clan. So using one clan's experiences and applying it to all the clans doesn't seem very sound, given that new information is only told to the Elves at every Arlathvhen.

If the varterrals are as rare as we are led to believe; we have encountered more Dragons than Varterrals, for instance and they were basically extinct until Maric awoke the Great Ones; then I doubt Merril's clan has encoutered enough varterrals to be able to properly determine the usual behavior of this species.

They could have met a few that allowed the clan to pass but that is not, necessarely, indicative of intelligence. An animal will avoid a group large enough to harm it.

MisterJB wrote...
Two. Two Varterrals. And it didn't attack Zevran, who has Dalish blood coursing through his veins.

Three. Given the elve's affinity with blood magic, I might even believe a varterral is a wooden golem. But that it is unkillable so long as it has a duty to fulfill? That is more appropriate to a legend.

Merril and Ariane also have dalish blood and they were attacked by Varterrals. Zevran is a rogue, he could have just hid from the creature.

Doubtful, given that we have evidence that Fen'Harel is real and thus the entire Elven pantheon is real. And since they're real, then the story has something to support it.

A magical book that writes itself is not the most reliable source of information. Who created that book? What does it basis itself on? Omniscience or simple interpretation of events?
If it is the latter, then couldn't it be wrong?

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 août 2012 - 06:30 .

[Fiacre]

I'd say that it's unlikely that the book was included -- and says things like that -- if there isn't some meaning to it. I mean, a box with tears or a nude statue with an amusing codex entry are one thing, but considering that you have to decode what the book says I'd give it more importance. Besides, Fen'Harel gets mentioned a few more times in DA2 (Merrill even tells us a story about him), while most of the elven gods just get a codex entry, so I'm inclined to believe that there's something going on with him; especially since he's the only elven god that''s supposedly still around.

Also, as far as the Fall of the Dales go, during the Urn quest the Shartan spirit says "But she was betrayed an so were we". I've always interpreted that as him talking about the Exalted March and I think what he says should at least be considered, since none of the spirits outright lie -- even Vasilia proudly states that she talked her husband into burning Andraste and that she considers it justice. And Shartan's wording seems to favour the theory that Orlais/the Chantry is to blame.

[MisterJB]

That doesn't necesarely mean the elven interpretation of it is correct akin to how it is a fact the Black City exists but there is reason to doubt the Magisters were the one who tainted it.
Maybe Fen'Harel is real but is he a wolf who locked the gods away? That is questionable.

An elf who thinks humans are to blame for the Fall of the Dales? Shocking.
Spirits may not lie but that doesn't mean they can't be biased. Vasilia considered Andraste's death to be just. I'm sure some of the other spirits would disagree.
And I question just how much Shartan's spirit could possibly know about the Fall having died long before it happened.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 août 2012 - 06:39 .

[Fiacre]

Oh, certainly. I don't doubt that there's more to him as well, but I'm reasonably sure that there's a somewhat powerful entity calling himself Fen'Harel that has some connection to wolves.

But Shartan seems to be certain that it was betrayal. I dunno, I don't think it would be worded quite like that if there isn't more to it than the Chantry tells us. And since the guardian seems to know more than he should, I wouldn't be surprised if the other spirits aren't completely clueless. We can't even be sure if that is really Shartan himself, considering that the spirit of our past is obviously not actually that person.

Considering that is another source of information, I simply wouldn't discount Shartan entirely. And honestly, I'd be surprised if there isn't something there that we don't know about yet, and it is like the Chantry *or* the Elves say.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Maybe Fen'Harel is real but is he a wolf who locked the gods away? That is questionable.

Why? Because it's a story about an intelligent animal? Considering Mabari have intelligence on par with humans -- and in some cases, are smarter then some humans -- it's not all that far-fetched.

MisterJB wrote...

Spirits may not lie but that doesn't mean they can't be biased. Vasilia considered Andraste's death to be just. I'm sure some of the other spirits would disagree.

Maferath had a vision of Andraste where she told him her death was Maker-blessed, indicating that the Maker knew about its eventual happening and wanted it to happen.

Which by extension suggests that he never abandoned Thedas, contrary to what the Chantry would like to believe.

So I'd say the death was -- while not just as the lady thought -- certainly something that was felt as necessary.

MisterJB wrote...

And I question just how much Shartan's spirit could possibly know about the Fall having died long before it happened

The Guardian can see what the PC's life has been like, and the Guardian died long before the PC was ever born.

Fiacre wrote...

Also, as far as the Fall of the Dales go, during the Urn quest the Shartan spirit says "But she was betrayed an so were we". I've always interpreted that as him talking about the Exalted March and I think what he says should at least be considered, since none of the spirits outright lie -- even Vasilia proudly states that she talked her husband into burning Andraste and that she considers it justice. And Shartan's wording seems to favour the theory that Orlais/the Chantry is to blame.

That's how I've taken it too.

MisterJB wrote...

Zevran is a rogue, he could have just hid from the creature.

Unlikely, given that the Varterral immediately attacked not only Hawke's party, but the assassins sent after Zevran and we know Zevran traversed the same path we take -- as he set up traps in the beginning of the passage to deal with some Crows.

So... yea.

MisterJB wrote...

They could have met a few that allowed the clan to pass but that is not, necessarely, indicative of intelligence. An animal will avoid a group large enough to harm it.

Witch Hunt tells us an entire regiment of Tevinter soldiers, archers, and a Magister were almost entirely destroyed by a Varterral.

So... avoiding a large group doesn't really hold up, if the Varterrals attacked a large group of Tevinters.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
But Shartan seems to be certain that it was betrayal. I dunno, I don't think it would be worded quite like that if there isn't more to it than the Chantry tells us. And since the guardian seems to know more than he should, I wouldn't be surprised if the other spirits aren't completely clueless. We can't even be sure if that is really Shartan himself, considering that the spirit of our past is obviously not actually that person.

Considering that is another source of information, I simply wouldn't discount Shartan entirely. And honestly, I'd be surprised if there isn't something there that we don't know about yet, and it is like the Chantry *or* the Elves say.

I'm not discounting him. I'm saying he is biased much like others would say the Chantry is biased regarding the Fall of the Dales. People always want to make others and themselves believe their side is right, especially so during wars.
Elves are no different in that aspect. Every Dalish we meet outrage over the way "humans betrayed their own prophet" but they always conveniently forget to mention the Exalted March was only called after the Dales almost destroyed Orlais.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Why? Because it's a story about an intelligent animal? Considering Mabari have intelligence on par with humans -- and in some cases, are smarter then some humans -- it's not all that far-fetched.

I take everything I hear with a grain of salt.
A story about how an intelligent wolf tricked the gods of good and evil? And it just so happens to perfectly explain why the elven gods didn't prevent the humans from destroying Arlathan? I don't buy it.
Since this is a Fantasy, it might be true. But it also might be just a myth meant to keep young elves happy.

Maferath had a vision of Andraste where she told him her death was Maker-blessed, indicating that the Maker knew about its eventual happening and wanted it to happen.

Which by extension suggests that he never abandoned Thedas, contrary to what the Chantry would like to believe.

So I'd say the death was -- while not just as the lady thought -- certainly something that was felt as necessary.

I don't see how that disproves my claim spirits can be just as biased as humans. You yourself admit her death wasn't just like the Archon's wife believed.

The Guardian can see what the PC's life has been like, and the Guardian died long before the PC was ever born.

Is he dead? He doesn't have the same translucency of other spirits. His longevity, knowledge and ability to summon spirits could all be explained through the use of Blood Magic.
Which would go against the rule of the Chantry but that's a different discussion.

Unlikely, given that the Varterral immediately attacked not only Hawke's party, but the assassins sent after Zevran and we know Zevran traversed the same path we take -- as he set up traps in the beginning of the passage to deal with some Crows.

Two groups composed of; possibly, warriors and mages are much less stealthier than a single rogue alone.
Zevran doesn't say anything that suggests the vaterral just let him pass so, it's quite possible he simply hid.

Witch Hunt tells us an entire regiment of Tevinter soldiers, archers, and a Magister were almost entirely destroyed by a Varterral.

So... avoiding a large group doesn't really hold up, if the Varterrals attacked a large group of Tevinters.

That would depend of certain factors like the size of a Tevinter regiment compared to that od a Dalish clan as well as the agressiveness of the first compared to that of the second.
If anything, all that proves is that varterrals have attacked both dalish and tevinters indiscriminately. That is easily explainable if they are just rare animals, not so if they are magical and intelligent golems meant to protect the dalish.