384 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
All of which, especially the first, are fatal.

There is zero evidence that supports the idea human contact makes elves mortal.
On the other hand, experts say that war is quite fatal.

Please provide proof that the Dalish deliberately didn't contribute any Grey Wardens.

I can't but you can't prove they contributed any Grey Wardens either.
On the other hand, there are many believable reports that an elven army merely watched as the darkspawn butchered an entire city.

I will use codex entries as evidence, same as you.

If I used the Maker's return as a way to justify uprooting other religions, you would point out how nonsensical that is. And rightly so.
Elven immortality that is weakened by contact with humans is just as believable.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

If I used the Maker's return as a way to justify uprooting other religions, you would point out how nonsensical that is. And rightly so.
Elven immortality that is weakened by contact with humans is just as believable.

From the point view of the Chantry that would be a perfectly valid justification. From the elves' point of view of the Quickening is a perfectly valid argument against associating with humans. Disregarding bith parties belief will hardly help ascertain the truth of what happened and who was more justified.

[Xilizhra]

There is zero evidence that supports the idea human contact makes elves mortal.
On the other hand, experts say that war is quite fatal.

There is evidence, based on the fact that Dalish live longer.

I can't but you can't prove they contributed any Grey Wardens either.
On the other hand, there are many believable reports that an elven army merely watched as the darkspawn butchered an entire city.

So the Dalish are just like every other nation that doesn't send its army into foreign territory to fight some other enemy without a preexisting defense pact or newly formed military alliance? I'm pretty sure that's most nations.

From the point view of the Chantry that would be a perfectly valid justification. From the elves' point of view of the Quickening is a perfectly valid argument against associating with humans. Disregarding bith parties belief will hardly help ascertain the truth of what happened and who was more justified.

Indeed.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
From the point view of the Chantry that would be a perfectly valid justification. From the elves' point of view of the Quickening is a perfectly valid argument against associating with humans. Disregarding bith parties belief will hardly help ascertain the truth of what happened and who was more justified.

I am not against factoring each partie's beliefs in an analysis of the conflict.
I am against using "quickening" in an argument as if it is a fact.
What I said was that if the elves had been more willing to cooperate with humans, the Dales might still exist. Xilizhra then claimed that it would be more likely the elves would be dying because of the "quickening plague", of which there is no evidence.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Fiacre wrote...
From the point view of the Chantry that would be a perfectly valid justification. From the elves' point of view of the Quickening is a perfectly valid argument against associating with humans. Disregarding bith parties belief will hardly help ascertain the truth of what happened and who was more justified.

I am not against factoring each partie's beliefs in an analysis of the conflict.
I am against using "quickening" in an argument as if it is a fact.
What I said was that if the elves had been more willing to cooperate with humans, the Dales might still exist. Xilizhra then claimed that it would be more likely the elves would be dying because of the "quickening plague", of which there is no evidence.

There's evidence that you've chosen to deem insufficient. Which you can do. It won't change my opinion.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
There is evidence, based on the fact that Dalish live longer.

The difference in lifespan between two completely different societies is not evidence of biological immortality, only of an healthier lifestyle and/or better healthcare.
Humans from First World countries live longer than those from Third World countries. And it's a considerable difference, twice the lifespan.

So the Dalish are just like every other nation that doesn't send its army into foreign territory to fight some other enemy without a preexisting defense pact or newly formed military alliance? I'm pretty sure that's most nations.

A fair point but most(understatement) wars tend to be of a political nature.
The Darkspawn are a common enemy that threatens all of existence. Faced with such monstrosity, even Orlais and Ferelden were willing to cooperate altough the intentions of the former were questionable.
An assistance from the Dalish who were (possibly) already in foreign territory would have gone a long way into creating lasting peace between elves and humans. The same thing happened during the Fifth Blight but this time the elves helped and were granted land for it. Altough, admitadelly, there was an existing treaty with the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[Xilizhra]

The difference in lifespan between two completely different societies is not evidence of biological immortality, only of an healthier lifestyle and/or better healthcare.
Humans from First World countries live longer than those from Third World countries. And it's a considerable difference, twice the lifespan.

This is skewed by infant mortality rates and frequent war, neither of which has to do with maximum natural lifespan. And Zathrian's extremely long life was described as unusual, not unheard of, which leads me to believe that other Dalish have done this as well. In any case, the Dalish are wilderness-walking nomads; not exactly living in the lap of healthy luxury.

A fair point but most(understatement) wars tend to be of a political nature.
The Darkspawn are a common enemy that threatens all of existence. Faced with such monstrosity, even Orlais and Ferelden were willing to cooperate altough the intentions of the former were questionable.
An assistance from the Dalish who were (possibly) already in foreign territory would have gone a long way into creating lasting peace between elves and humans. The same thing happened during the Fifth Blight but this time the elves helped and were granted land for it. Altough, admitadelly, there was an existing treaty with the Grey Wardens.

Why would the Dalish know about this? The original Blight happened in Tevinter, where the elves might have seen it as a good thing (and it was a good thing, arguably, as it weakened the Imperium's hold long enough for Andraste to attack later). And even in subsequent Blights, the Dalish wouldn't possess the information to know that they were necessarily an enemy to everyone; they don't accept Chantry mythology on the matter. Only the Grey Wardens would likely be able to convince the Dalish otherwise, which they clearly did eventually, given the existence of the treaty.

[Fiacre]

IIRC hey only get land if the Dalish warden asks for it. The Dalish boon happening whenever Lanaya is Keeper is a bug. However, they do get some respect for their help... Supposedly. I didn't see much respect towards the Dalish in Awakening.

And IIRC, Orlais didn't want to help any more after Loghain kept them out of the Country (and my Warden -- Anora's consort -- wasn't too keen on Orlesian help either).

Orlais can be pissed about the Dalish lack of help, but that wouldn't justify them attacking. nor does the Dales rejecting Chantry missionaries and Andrasteism. And we can't be sure what led to the Dales attacking Orlais and sacking Val Royeaux (and possibly destroying Red Crossing).

And I don't think the Quickening should be entirely discounted. The Brecilian Ruins from Nature if the beast do have some evidence that the elves might have been immortal at a time and in that case, something happened to make them age. If that is exposure to humans or something different that tends to coincide withh exposure to humans, I couldn't say.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
This is skewed by infant mortality rates and frequent war, neither of which has to do with maximum natural lifespan. And Zathrian's extremely long life was described as unusual, not unheard of, which leads me to believe that other Dalish have done this as well. In any case, the Dalish are wilderness-walking nomads; not exactly living in the lap of healthy luxury.

They do have healing magic to rely on whereas alienage elves live in squalor and are often criminals who end up hanged or easy victims to humans, both criminals and nobles.
The Dalish do live long lives but don't know what is their average lifespan and how it compares to that of city elves.

Why would the Dalish know about this? The original Blight happened in Tevinter, where the elves might have seen it as a good thing (and it was a good thing, arguably, as it weakened the Imperium's hold long enough for Andraste to attack later). And even in subsequent Blights, the Dalish wouldn't possess the information to know that they were necessarily an enemy to everyone; they don't accept Chantry mythology on the matter. Only the Grey Wardens would likely be able to convince the Dalish otherwise, which they clearly did eventually, given the existence of the treaty.

C'mon, the Darkspawn blight the lands, leaving them inhabitable for everyone. Elven slaves would have also been used by the Imperium to fight them.
You don't need to be a Grey Warden to know they pose a threat to life itself.

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
Orlais can be pissed about the Dalish lack of help, but that wouldn't justify them attacking. nor does the Dales rejecting Chantry missionaries and Andrasteism. And we can't be sure what led to the Dales attacking Orlais and sacking Val Royeaux (and possibly destroying Red Crossing).

It does justify the increase of antagonisms towards elves, however.
According to the elves themselves, the Chantry sent missionaries and, when they were refused, Templars.
Obviously, this is a very skewed view. Not only did humans also attempt diplomacy and commerce, it took over three hundred years for the war to start. It wasn't missionaries one day, templars the other.
But, let's assume the Chantry did send Templars into the Dales and that is what lead to the elves attacking Red Crossing. This implies a forced convertion but there are other possibilties. Take into account the Chantry did not call for a March before the elves attacked, this leads me to believe the templars were merely there to protect the missionaries and give some strenght to their request to enter the Dales.
A proper reaction would have been to increase border patrol.

And I don't think the Quickening should be entirely
discounted. The Brecilian Ruins from Nature if the beast do have some
evidence that the elves might have been immortal at a time and in that
case, something happened to make them age. If that is exposure to humans
or something different that tends to coincide withh exposure to humans,
I couldn't say.

Unless my memory fails me, the ruins have evidence of rituals but that is it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 août 2012 - 06:33 .

[Xilizhra]

They do have healing magic to rely on whereas alienage elves live in squalor and are often criminals who end up hanged or easy victims to humans, both criminals and nobles.
The Dalish do live long lives but don't know what is their average lifespan and how it compares to that of city elves.

By your point of view, wouldn't the Dalish also have to deal with frequent abomination outbreaks due to the lack of a Circle? Or is that lack not a problem for them? And we can parse that at least some have lived to around 600, from Lanaya's line about Zathrian.

C'mon, the Darkspawn blight the lands, leaving them inhabitable for everyone. Elven slaves would have also been used by the Imperium to fight them.
You don't need to be a Grey Warden to know they pose a threat to life itself.

They may be poisonous, but the Dalish don't know for certain that the darkspawn are driven to kill absolutely everyone, instead of just attack the greatest power nearby. For instance. There are reasons beyond simple callousness that the Dalish may not have attacked.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
By your point of view, wouldn't the Dalish also have to deal with frequent abomination outbreaks due to the lack of a Circle? Or is that lack not a problem for them? And we can parse that at least some have lived to around 600, from Lanaya's line about Zathrian.

I'm sure Dalishs also die violent deaths. They still live better than those in the cities.
Lanaya the elf. Where does her information come from? Did she saw with her own eyes 600 years old elves at a meeting of the clan? Or is it simply more tales told by the Keepers? Or maybe just semantics?

They may be poisonous, but the Dalish don't know for certain that the darkspawn are driven to kill absolutely everyone, instead of just attack the greatest power nearby. For instance. There are reasons beyond simple callousness that the Dalish may not have attacked.

After 100 years of Blight, the Dalish would know enough about the Darkspawn to realize that most don't exhibit sentient traits and that they kill indiscriminately, wether it be portentous armies or defenseless towns.. You don't need to be a doctor to understand the dangers of a plague.
Possibly. I'd very much like to hear their justification.

[Xilizhra]

I'm sure Dalishs also die violent deaths. They still live better than those in the cities.
Lanaya the elf. Where does her information come from? Did she saw with her own eyes 600 years old elves at a meeting of the clan? Or is it simply more tales told by the Keepers? Or maybe just semantics?

I doubt such differences in living conditions would account for a lifespan disparity of that length. As for Lanaya, I suspect she'd hear from or of elves who'd live for that long at the Arlathvenns, which seems to be the main way Dalish share information.

After 100 years of Blight, the Dalish would know enough about the Darkspawn to realize that most don't exhibit sentient traits and that they kill indiscriminately, wether it be portentous armies or defenseless towns.. You don't need to be a doctor to understand the dangers of a plague.
Possibly. I'd very much like to hear their justification.

It'd be a useful thing to hear before condemning them, no?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It'd be a useful thing to hear before condemning them, no?

That's rich coming from you.
It'd be nice if we could ask them. In DAO, we have to constantly endure cries of "shemlen" and "Dales" but we can never answer with "knife ears" or Red Crossing" or "Montsimmard".

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It'd be a useful thing to hear before condemning them, no?

That's rich coming from you.
It'd be nice if we could ask them. In DAO, we have to constantly endure cries of "shemlen" and "Dales" but we can never answer with "knife ears" or Red Crossing" or "Montsimmard".

Well, the two main bad things the Dalish have done are staying out of one battle and attacking one city, while the main bad thing Orlais has done is genocide and slavery. So... yeah.

Also, I've taken your longing to be racist into account.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

It does justify the increase of antagonisms towards elves, however.
According to the elves themselves, the Chantry sent missionaries and, when they were refused, Templars.
Obviously, this is a very skewed view. Not only did humans also attempt diplomacy and commerce, it took over three hundred years for the war to start. It wasn't missionaries one day, templars the other.
But, let's assume the Chantry did send Templars into the Dales and that is what lead to the elves attacking Red Crossing. This implies a forced convertion but there are other possibilties. Take into account the Chantry did not call for a March before the elves attacked, this leads me to believe the templars were merely there to protect the missionaries and give some strenght to their request to enter the Dales.
A proper reaction would have been to increase border patrol.

But what right did the chntry have to send missionaries at all, or to send Templars to look after them? f the Dalish told them they're not interested in conversion then that's that and the Chantry should have left them alone. Not that I'm surprised they didn't considering their religion requires converting everyone. even Anders occasionally tries to push Chantry beliefs.

Unless my memory fails me, the ruins have evidence of rituals but that is it.

The ritual to visit the elders that have decided to undertake Uthenera, yes. What we now of that only makes sense if the elves were immortal or at least extremely long lived (like the Time Lords from Doctor Who, for example). There is some evidence for elven immortality/long life spans. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if it's all different than everyone thinks, but I think it's interesting.


And you can, in fact, be very dismissive of Sarel when he talks about the Dales, but you can't be completely on the elves die, at least not as a human.

Modifié par Fiacre, 23 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, the two main bad things the Dalish have done are staying out of one battle and attacking one city, while the main bad thing Orlais has done is genocide and slavery. So... yeah.

Also, I've taken your longing to be racist into account.

So, only the elves are allowed to be racist? "Shemlen" is a racial slur, their isolationism is entirely based on racism.

The main bad thing the Dalish did was attempted cultural genocide. Orlais destroyed a culture but they commited no act of slavery.

[Xilizhra]

You have no proof of the Dalish trying anything genocidal, I didn't mention elven racism because you were the one who wanted to be racist, and slavery in Orlais is illegal in the same way that blood magic is illegal in Tevinter.

[The Night Haunter]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It'd be a useful thing to hear before condemning them, no?

That's rich coming from you.
It'd be nice if we could ask them. In DAO, we have to constantly endure cries of "shemlen" and "Dales" but we can never answer with "knife ears" or Red Crossing" or "Montsimmard".

Well, the two main bad things the Dalish have done are staying out of one battle and attacking one city, while the main bad thing Orlais has done is genocide and slavery. So... yeah.

Also, I've taken your longing to be racist into account.

Well this conversation turned interesting lol.

In reality I think humans probably attacked the Dales first without any real just cause.
Evidence: Orlais is an Imperial Power, that means conquering territory simply for the sake of conquering territory is allowed and encouraged. Imperial France, Napolean primarily, is a perfect example. The British Empire is another.
Orlais conquers Ferelden just cause. They don't say 'OMG zee fereldens are killing uzz" they just invade. They try to conquer Nevarra numerous times. The do conquer Kirkwall (briefly) and thats why the leader is called Viscount.

Given all that it is incredibly easy to believe that Orlais insitaged a Casus Belli to attack the Dales, then when they actually started losing they called for help and declared an Exalted March (At this point in time there is other evidence that shows the CHantry was practicaly under Orliesan control). The reason they didn't call an Exalted March right away? They didn't want to share the spoils (Imperialist thinking).

Given how poorly elves have been treated over the last thousand years (more actually) it is hardly surprising they are bitter towards humans.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, the two main bad things the Dalish have done are staying out of one battle and attacking one city, while the main bad thing Orlais has done is genocide and slavery. So... yeah.

Also, I've taken your longing to be racist into account.

So, only the elves are allowed to be racist? "Shemlen" is a racial slur, their isolationism is entirely based on racism.

The main bad thing the Dalish did was attempted cultural genocide. Orlais destroyed a culture but they commited no act of slavery.

Who did the Dalish attempt to culturally assassinate?? Orlais did in fact commit slavery, they simply call it servitude to make it sound better. It isn't straight forward slavery, but it is slavery none the less, just like the early 1900's in the American south wealthy white people had black servants who were basically slaves, because they had no other options (the african-americans, not the rich peeps)

[MisterJB]

Fiacre wrote...
But what right did the chntry have to send missionaries at all, or to send Templars to look after them? f the Dalish told them they're not interested in conversion then that's that and the Chantry should have left them alone. Not that I'm surprised they didn't considering their religion requires converting everyone. even Anders occasionally tries to push Chantry beliefs.

Sharing your culture is a bad thing now?
Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression. The elves displayed and continue to display shameful intolerance and racism.

The ritual to visit the elders that have decided to undertake Uthenera, yes. What we now of that only makes sense if the elves were immortal or at least extremely long lived (like the Time Lords from Doctor Who, for example). There is some evidence for elven immortality/long life spans. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if it's all different than everyone thinks, but I think it's interesting.

My own religion tells me our faithful dead will rise on Judgment Day and live eternally. It doesn't mean it's true.

And you can, in fact, be very dismissive of Sarel when he talks about the Dales, but you can't be completely on the elves die, at least not as a human.

You can say "A conflict you started, I am told" and "Something you found unjust, no doubt" which is far too light.
I would have preferred "You almost destroyed an entire country, you hypocrites", "Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression" and "Call me shemlen one more time and I'll break your teeth"

[Xilizhra]

My own religion tells me our faithful dead will rise on Judgment Day and live eternally. It doesn't mean it's true.

Shadowy elves do appear on Sundermount, possibly corrupted by demonic influence, and leave behind physical bodies when killed, so they're not just spiritual projections like some others we see.

Sharing your culture is a bad thing now?
Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression. The elves displayed and continue to display shameful intolerance and racism.

If the elves attacked over those, it's not just those.

[MisterJB]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...
Who did the Dalish attempt to culturally assassinate??

Orlais. They went so far as to sack the capital.
Just because they failed, doesn't mean they didn't try to destroy Orlais.

Orlais did in fact commit slavery, they simply call it servitude to make it sound better. It isn't straight forward slavery, but it is slavery none the less, just like the early 1900's in the American south wealthy white people had black servants who were basically slaves, because they had no other options (the african-americans, not the rich peeps)

Elves are paid, well treated and are free to leave whenever they please. The few nobles who disrespect these terms are punished by the Empress.
It's not slavery, it's social inequality which still exists today and will always exist.

[The Night Haunter]

MisterJB wrote...


Sharing your culture is a bad thing now?
Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression. The elves displayed and continue to display shameful intolerance and racism.

Umm sure the Spanish missionaries in california who persecuted the american natives was just them sharing their culture! All good!

Many, many nations have prevented missionaries from spreading 'heretical' beliefs in their nations. This isn't bad, it just is. Russia prevented Roman Catholics from entering, Austria stopped Muslim's venturing into Europe. Japan stopped all contact with the outside world for hundreds of years.

I think you're getting too fixated on America's free religion and thinking every nation should do that because everything else is wrong. That is a very narrow point of view, and only really works for western culture. The Elves in DA are not an equivalent Western Culture they dont have the same beliefs, and you don't respect that.

Just because you think one religion is correct doesn't mean everyone should be forced to acknowledge that religion.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Shadowy elves do appear on Sundermount, possibly corrupted by demonic influence, and leave behind physical bodies when killed, so they're not just spiritual projections like some others we see.

And demons also leave rings when they die.
Gameplay/Lore segregation.

If the elves attacked over those, it's not just those.

The dalish try kill anyone that comes close to their camps, even if it is just an harmless old man like Brother Genitivi.
The truth is that elves are an incredibly racist and hostile species and that they could have very well attacked human land over those non agressive actions I pointed out.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 août 2012 - 07:50 .