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Why The Catalyst Was Right* Despite Geth, EDI, etc...


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#1
bgroberts

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...And why those who claim he's wrong forgot to pay attention in their university classes.

As a graduate student I regularly give lectures to undergraduate classes on basic research skills which culminates in a position paper and class discussion/debate to go along with it. One of the most infuriating things I encounter amongst most students and what I try to beat out of them is clinging to that natural human predisposition to hold on to anecdotes and exceptions as "proof" against an established idea. People here are falling into the same trap vis-à-vis the Catalyst and his supposedly faulty logic.

Research does not prove an assertion without exception so do not take my use of right in the title or proof above or below as something which is infallibly true. Research suggests things with differing degrees of correlation or backing. This is true in science, this is true in public policy, and true in the liberal arts. I'm not talking of statements of opinion on the quality of Shakespeare or Faulkner or the story of Mass Effect 3--those are not research questions. The Catalyst may have been a crappy plot device, but the logic is entirely a different story.

I'm a political and social historian and, as such, many of the topics I often assign fit in with political debates ongoing today so people tend to have deep-seated beliefs when it comes time for the debate. Inevitably the argument spirals out of control as students begin citing personal experiences or experiences of people they know in their immediate circle of acquaintances as “evidence” against other students who have well researched papers with a number of sources and studies backing them up. These students get a big red “R” for rewrite and have to conference with me.

Arguing anything from Shepard's point-of-view against the Catalyst is committing the type of academic sin that should get you an “R” from any self-respecting professor or instructor. The Catalyst has been at this for 20,000+ cycles for at or above 1 billions years. His sample size and sources are so enormously vast beyond any cycle's experience that Shepard's indication of the Geth or EDI are of no consequence. You are holding up an exception to the aggregate, and also an exception with no guarantees of continuity.

As I said earlier, research does not prove something infallibly—it suggests. This is something which the Catalyst understands and why he admits that his solutions are and have been imperfect. He is a number crunching machine, however, and his research indicates and suggests that organics will create hostile synthetics with enough certainty that action is warranted. It may not be 100% certainty, he does not need to be a “god” and be omniscient, but he is a machine that has calculated extremely long odds and cannot afford to gamble. He may have been standing up much less firm ground at the very beginning, with only maybe a few thousands of years of experience, but since then he has amassed a very impressive set of case studies.

In short, the Catalyst is that guy that has an extremely awesome thesis paper backed up by years of research, dozens of sources, and a number of statistically reliable studies while you are the slacker with an eight page paper you wrote overnight that sources Wikipedia and a few three page articles. You're paper may not be any less “true”, but your one dubious study that disagrees with the Catalyst's two dozen peer-reviewed and reliable studies does not stake a competent position.

Edit: Formatting.

Modifié par bgroberts, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:28 .


#2
Taboo

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Appeal to Probability

A is possible/ therefore A is absolute

He is invalidated the moments he says "new variables".

#3
NoUserNameHere

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The narrative desperately wants him to be right, I will admit.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:32 .


#4
ediskrad327

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i don't care, he deserved the red light

#5
nhsknudsen

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All I read is "I believe myself above most of you, so my opinion is the one that matters!"

#6
o Ventus

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His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

#7
Taboo

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o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.


Not only that he presents an appeal to authority...

I, and I alone have the authority to be an expert and you MUST believe me.

wat

#8
ISAWRIT

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^ Well to be fair, he wasn't wrong (cough geth cough).

#9
o Ventus

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ISAWRIT wrote...

^ Well to be fair, he wasn't wrong (cough geth cough).


"The created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators."

1 sample is not evidence to any claims of "always", especially when said sample was earlier disproven.

#10
NoUserNameHere

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I think the OP missed the part where the Catalyst admits to being the very AI menace he claims to be protecting us against.

He's not some galactic sage with a billion years of wisdom under his belt. He's your decade-old laptop trying to run Vista.

#11
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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ISAWRIT wrote...

^ Well to be fair, he wasn't wrong (cough geth cough).

Given that the geth can at that point be nothing but scrap metal, they certainly do not prove his theory that synthetics would inevitably wipe out organic life.

#12
Taboo

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I'm shooting the pipe and going home.

The Apocalypse Now connotations can occur once my Shepard wakes up in the hospital and is berated by Miranda.

M: "Where were you?"

M: "Why didn't you contact me or any of my contacts?"

S: "Your contacts?"

M: "You heard me."

S: "This hurts me."

#13
bgroberts

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o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. However, that doesn't make his evidence any less true or pressing.

Modifié par bgroberts, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:47 .


#14
Baronesa

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Seems the only one relying on flimsy evidence is the OP...

Rather than looking for actual evidence that we can appreciate, he prefers to go for the unreliable testimony presented by the CAtalyst and the catalyst alone...

"Catalyst: The created will always rebel against the Creators, and you must trust me because I say so"

#15
Taboo

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bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. That makes his evidence no less true or pressing.


A falllacy renders your opinion moot.

MOOT.

#16
o Ventus

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bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. That makes his evidence no less true or pressing.


I'm saying that he doesn't know, and it's impossible for him to know.

His premise is based on objectively false information, which makes it pretty f**king untrue and very non-pressing.

His evidence might hold merit...

... If he bothered to produce any.

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .


#17
jstme

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You assume that Catalyst is some kind of neutral superior intelligence that devotes resources and time to analizing the situation throughout all its existance and constantly looking for new data to adapt its actions.
And you are wrong.
Catalyst started doing what it did on whoever created it. Based on data it had then. Not only new cycle with new data changed the reaping option, Catalyst actually created specific pattern which forces cycles to develop in the way Catalyst wishes. If you make a puzzle for mice in which mice can only take turns right , stating that all the mice turns right and needs to be canned is... not very scientific.
And it deals with those cycles in specific pattern untill Shepard comes to visit and chooses ABC. Plugging in crucible is secondary because of new refuse ending - crucible is plugged and operational and yet Catalyst does its humanitarian organic-saving deed again because Shepard did not ABCed.
Some facts:
Never in ME universe synthetics destroyed all organic life. Because there it is.
Catalyst is much younger then ME universe.
Universe is infinite, synthetics cannot destroy all organic life everythere due to this. Even if they relly really really wanted to.
Catalyst is a broken paranoid AI responsible for hideous things. Arguing with it (and destroying it)
is the only option.

#18
Baronesa

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bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. However, that doesn't make his evidence any less true or pressing.


Oh PLEASE

His evidence is just his word... that is ZERO... nothing... NADA


But if you want to play that game... then Zeus, Osiris, Mithras, Vishnu, Odin existed and are very real since there are testimony for it.

#19
Taboo

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Baronesa wrote...

bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. However, that doesn't make his evidence any less true or pressing.


Oh PLEASE

His evidence is just his word... that is ZERO... nothing... NADA


But if you want to play that game... then Zeus, Osiris, Mithras, Vishnu, Odin existed and are very real since there are testimony for it.


ARE YOU TELLING ME MY PRAYERS TO THE ALL FATHER ODIN ARE GOING UNANSWERED?

#20
bgroberts

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Taboo-XX wrote...

bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. That makes his evidence no less true or pressing.


A falllacy renders your opinion moot.

MOOT.

Did you miss the part where I said no evidence absolutely proves anything? I make no claims of the Catalyst's existence as an infallible entity. I make the claim that he is coming from a position with access to an enormously greater quantity of data. His argument, making some assumptions (primarily that he isn't actually lying), has much more backing than could Shephard's.

#21
Nerevar-as

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Baronesa wrote...

Seems the only one relying on flimsy evidence is the OP...

Rather than looking for actual evidence that we can appreciate, he prefers to go for the unreliable testimony presented by the CAtalyst and the catalyst alone...

"Catalyst: The created will always rebel against the Creators, and you must trust me because I say so"


Well, it´s right. It did it first and then ensured synthetics would wipe out advanced organic life for tens of millions of years. That Starbrat is the very problem it´s trying to prevent somehow slipped its logic.

Would really like a crossover with the Culture. Deal with that Singularity SB.

#22
OchreJelly

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I'm glad they taught me research at Mass Effect University.

It is so *not* a party school, shut-up!

On topic, though, I don't think the writers cared as much about the logic or reasonableness of the Catalyst as the justifications attempt to warrant.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .


#23
Baronesa

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bgroberts wrote...
Did you miss the part where I said no evidence absolutely proves anything? I make no claims of the Catalyst's existence as an infallible entity. I make the claim that he is coming from a position with access to an enormously greater quantity of data. His argument, making some assumptions (primarily that he isn't actually lying), has much more backing than could Shephard's.


Data that you DON'T SEE, that you CANNOT evaluate and must assume on FAITH alone that it actually exists.

#24
Taboo

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bgroberts wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

bgroberts wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.

All you're saying is that "he's not God". That's your whole argument. Because he is capable of committing a falacy then he is necesarily wrong. That makes his evidence no less true or pressing.


A falllacy renders your opinion moot.

MOOT.

Did you miss the part where I said no evidence absolutely proves anything? I make no claims of the Catalyst's existence as an infallible entity. I make the claim that he is coming from a position with access to an enormously greater quantity of data. His argument, making some assumptions (primarily that he isn't actually lying), has much more backing than could Shephard's.


He has accumulated no data as he eliminates species before they can progress.

He kills before they are capable of doing this.

He only changes when he gets new data, ie the Crucible and Shepard.

He is as wrong as wrong can be.

#25
Baronesa

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Seems the only one relying on flimsy evidence is the OP...

Rather than looking for actual evidence that we can appreciate, he prefers to go for the unreliable testimony presented by the CAtalyst and the catalyst alone...

"Catalyst: The created will always rebel against the Creators, and you must trust me because I say so"


Well, it´s right. It did it first and then ensured synthetics would wipe out advanced organic life for tens of millions of years. That Starbrat is the very problem it´s trying to prevent somehow slipped its logic.

Would really like a crossover with the Culture. Deal with that Singularity SB.



Yeah... starbrat is the embodiment of a self fullfilled prophecy... lil bastard