556 réponses à ce sujet

[Vigilant111]

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

[Cypher_CS]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

That's why it needs to go.

No argument here.

[DistantUtopia]

Grimwick wrote...

No that makes less sense. This is again falling into the trap of saving people by killing them. 

Let's save everyone by not saving them.

Or more accurately, lets save the species by killing the species since the catalyst never implies it saves "Everyone".

[Tealjaker94]

Technically speaking it is impossible to prove the catalyst wrong as, until the end of the universe, there will always be the chance for synthetics to wipe out organics. However, basing any sort of action upon that is preposterous.

[Memnon]

Cypher_CS wrote...

Right.
It's not just the outcome of the six sided die. It's the Winnings!

The roulette game consists of a small ball and a wheel with 38 numbered pockets around the edge. As the wheel is spun, the ball bounces around randomly until it settles down in one of the pockets. Suppose random variable X represents the (monetary) outcome of a $1 bet on a single number ("straight up" bet). If the bet wins (which happens with probability  138), the payoff is $35; otherwise the player loses the bet. The expected profit from such a bet will be 


Right?
The Odds are NOT in your favor. Correct?
Now, in the case of the Prudential (from the word Prudence) argument, or the Catalyst's argument, you replace the Outcome Values with something along the lines of Minus Infinity (or something close - to mean that Synths won't create new Organics) to Probability (minute as it may be) of Synthetics wiping out all Organics and something Finite, positive (to mean that we live another day, continue as we are) to the near 100% that Synths will NOT wipe out all Organics.
What would be the Expected Value then? It would still remain in the Minus

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. My only counter to this is that I really don't understand what all of those variables in the equation entail. X is finite, so it represents a discrete event - but these events unfold over vast periods of time. So if you are saying that there is a possibility of conflict within X amount of time vs Y amount of time vs Z amount of time, you will get wildly different results.

Anyways ... I'm kind of burned out on this discussion, so I'll end with this: I understand how people think the logic is sound - it seems more like a semantics issue to me more than anything else. The logic can make sense, but I argue that if the variables are faulty, the logic is faulty as well. Furthermore, even if the logic is 100% sound, the solution is not (which is a completely different topic altogether)

Modifié par Stornskar, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[robertthebard]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

[Vigilant111]

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

It's kinda like if you are smart then you get killed:(

[Grimwick]

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

[robertthebard]

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

[CronoDragoon]

Grimwick wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

bgroberts wrote...

Did you miss the part where I said no evidence absolutely proves anything? I make no claims of the Catalyst's existence as an infallible entity. I make the claim that he is coming from a position with access to an enormously greater quantity of data. His argument, making some assumptions (primarily that he isn't actually lying), has much more backing than could Shephard's.

We really have no idea whether or not he does have a great quantity of data. We do know that it took less than one civilization's lifespan for him to be created and start Reaping, so he doesn't have a great quantity of first-hand data to be sure.

Not to mention it is an argument from authority which is also a fallacy.

Not to mention that Shepard's "argument" is never really, "No, this will never happen." It's, "you're taking away our future." He's arguing for the freedom to see whether it happens or not. So I don't see how this is an argument in which the side with more evidence is proven right or wrong.

[RShara]

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...

HangedBIgD wrote...

RShara wrote...

The Catalyst ALSO has no proof of his claims. The fact that organics still exist proves that synthetics have never wiped out organics, as he claims is inevitable. How does he know that his cycle isn't the one with the "exception" and/when he's never given any other cycle the chance to show otherwise?

It also doesnt help when we get examples like the Zha'til where they rebelled due to direct reaper intervention.. that would be like me saying dogs are all crazy and feral then beatin a dog till it went crazed and attacked someone then using that as my proof.

Exactly.  A LOT of people try using the Metacon war as an example of inevitable destruction, and conveniently forget that the Reapers were behind that one too.

Conflict is inevitable, but mutual destruction evidently is not.  And conflict is inevitable between all sentients, organic or synthetic or some creepy mismatch of both, because individuals will always have their own opinions, as this is the essence of individuality.  Conflict does not lead inevitably to violence, or destruction.  Merely to debate and discussion, for all rational beings.

Repeating for posterity

This is still true, so the Catalyst's logic is still baseless

[Grimwick]

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

[The Angry One]

robertthebard wrote...

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy,

Show any evidence for this ridiculous assertion. Any evidence at all.

[robertthebard]

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Being an organic life form, I'm not going to be able to disagree with that.  It's just that, from their perspective, it's not total annihilation of everything, as there may be lifeforms on a harvested planet that aren't intentionally harvested.  Such as all the other primates on Earth, off the top of my head.

[Grimwick]

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Being an organic life form, I'm not going to be able to disagree with that.  It's just that, from their perspective, it's not total annihilation of everything, as there may be lifeforms on a harvested planet that aren't intentionally harvested.  Such as all the other primates on Earth, off the top of my head.

No, I mean there is no evidence to prove that assertion. In the slightest.

[RShara]

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Except the fact that there IS still organic life means that his premise is faulty, otherwise there would be no organic life.  Therefore, his assumption never happened, therefore he has no proof that it will EVER happen.

[Vigilant111]

The Catalyst should have video taped the slaughter of organics by allegedly the synthetics and show it to Shepard, in fact show it to the galaxy: "See? this is what u will get when you don't trust me!" This is reasonable ask, right? I am guess it COULD NOT come up with such things (the synthetics did not always rebel) or afraid that people will say oh that is fabricated

Modifié par Vigilant111, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[The Angry One]

RShara wrote...

Except the fact that there IS still organic life means that his premise is faulty, otherwise there would be no organic life.  Therefore, his assumption never happened, therefore he has no proof that it will EVER happen.

Hell if the Leviathan DLC is accurate, then the Reapers didn't even manage to wipe out their creators. After billions of years.

[RShara]

The Angry One wrote...

RShara wrote...

Except the fact that there IS still organic life means that his premise is faulty, otherwise there would be no organic life.  Therefore, his assumption never happened, therefore he has no proof that it will EVER happen.

Hell if the Leviathan DLC is accurate, then the Reapers didn't even manage to wipe out their creators. After billions of years.

I haven't read much of the Leviathan info, since I won't be buying it, but if that's correct then it's even more of a facepalm

[robertthebard]

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Being an organic life form, I'm not going to be able to disagree with that.  It's just that, from their perspective, it's not total annihilation of everything, as there may be lifeforms on a harvested planet that aren't intentionally harvested.  Such as all the other primates on Earth, off the top of my head.

No, I mean there is no evidence to prove that assertion. In the slightest.

I think my meaning is getting lost, so I'm going to clarify, the Reapers aren't harvesting anyone but the advanced races.  It can be argued that, since the Reapers have indeed been harvesting civilizations that that's why it's never happened.  The problem that I see is, true to what you're saying, there's no way to know.

Modifié par robertthebard, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:27 .

[Grimwick]

RShara wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Except the fact that there IS still organic life means that his premise is faulty, otherwise there would be no organic life.  Therefore, his assumption never happened, therefore he has no proof that it will EVER happen.

Exactly.

[Grimwick]

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

No!
It's not about saving People!
It's never about saving People.

It's about saving Organic Life as a whole.
It doesn't care for individual people.
Again, I'm not judging it. Obviously, to morally judge that, we end up with the one and only conclusion that it is wrong and evil and what not.
The problem, however, is NOT with that.

Yeah, saving should not include chopping you up and converting u into something else, and yes the Catalyst certainly has interesting ways to "save" people

The only problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it's false.  As not all Organic life is targetted by the Reapers.  If it were, we wouldn't have a game to play, as when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they'd have wiped us out too.  They were, after all, observing all the then Primitive Races, since even Javik knew about all the current technologically advanced races.

Eventually all sentient organic life is targetted.

The reapers end up killing everyone..

While true, it's also false, which seems contradictory.  However, since only the advanced life forms are harvested, it clears the way for the next cycle to grow independant of the previous.  Good bad or indifferent, that's the way it works.  Otherwise, there would be no organic life in the galaxy, probably way prior to the Protheans.  There was one example of this given in 3, although I can't remember what race it was off the top of my head, but Hackett comments that they may be the, or maybe one of the prominent life forms in the next cycle.

And that right there is what is so unjustifiable.

Being an organic life form, I'm not going to be able to disagree with that.  It's just that, from their perspective, it's not total annihilation of everything, as there may be lifeforms on a harvested planet that aren't intentionally harvested.  Such as all the other primates on Earth, off the top of my head.

No, I mean there is no evidence to prove that assertion. In the slightest.

I think my meaning is getting lost, so I'm going to clarify, the Reapers aren't harvesting anyone but the advanced races.  I can be argued that, since the Reapers have indeed been harvesting civilizations that that's why it's never happened.  The problem that I see is, true to what you're saying, there's no way to know.

You have no evidence to suggest that it will happen. Therefore no reason to make a solution in the first place.

It is ridiculous.

[Vigilant111]

@RShara and Grimwick : Perhaps it is safe to say that the Catalyst is also speculating like the rest of us, because the Catalyst does not live in the future

[The Angry One]

RShara wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RShara wrote...

Except the fact that there IS still organic life means that his premise is faulty, otherwise there would be no organic life.  Therefore, his assumption never happened, therefore he has no proof that it will EVER happen.

Hell if the Leviathan DLC is accurate, then the Reapers didn't even manage to wipe out their creators. After billions of years.

I haven't read much of the Leviathan info, since I won't be buying it, but if that's correct then it's even more of a facepalm

There's a line in the datamined dialogue that implies that the creators survived, so yeah. If that's accurate to the DLC then BioWare will be actively shooting their own premise in the foot.
I mean, even more so. Hell, From Ashes, the ONLY place you'll actually find any foreshadowing of this apparently overarching organic vs. synthetic conflict also undermines it at least twice.