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Why The Catalyst Was Right* Despite Geth, EDI, etc...


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#76
Mazebook

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Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
It...is...not...something...you...can...comprehend.

Peons...fumbling...in..ignorance.

:lol:


look at them play...aren´t they cute...?

trying to comprehend...what everybody with a basic IQ can understand...

they are so rude...that makes me sad...

like piggies in the mud...their ignorance is rather irritating.


Pigs roll in the mud because they do not have protection from the sun. They do so to prevent themselves from getting sun burned. Pigs are very intelligent by the way.

Also...what?


well if you want to take that as a compliment...B)...have it your way.:)


I've had more enlightening conversations with farm animals so yeah, I would rather talk with a pig than someone who believes that oxygen is not necessary for survival.


wow...you did not get at all what i was saying...did you?!

how?...how can someone just miss the point so completly?

how is that possible???... can not comprehend the ignorance...just to painful...will have to stop talking to you...to closed minded....bye

#77
Taboo

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maaaze wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
It...is...not...something...you...can...comprehend.

Peons...fumbling...in..ignorance.

:lol:


look at them play...aren´t they cute...?

trying to comprehend...what everybody with a basic IQ can understand...

they are so rude...that makes me sad...

like piggies in the mud...their ignorance is rather irritating.


Pigs roll in the mud because they do not have protection from the sun. They do so to prevent themselves from getting sun burned. Pigs are very intelligent by the way.

Also...what?


well if you want to take that as a compliment...B)...have it your way.:)


I've had more enlightening conversations with farm animals so yeah, I would rather talk with a pig than someone who believes that oxygen is not necessary for survival.


wow...you did not get at all what i was saying...did you?!

how?...how can someone just miss the point so completly?

how is that possible???... can not comprehend the ignorance...just to painful...will have to stop talking to you...to closed minded....bye


Are you sufferning from brain damage? Does it make you pause when you type?

We aren't doing any better with your sycophantic rants.

#78
ZackG312

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that is cold

#79
Baronesa

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maaaze wrote...

wow...you did not get at all what i was saying...did you?!

how?...how can someone just miss the point so completly?

how is that possible???... can not comprehend the ignorance...just to painful...will have to stop talking to you...to closed minded....bye



“If you're too open-minded; your brains will fall out.”


Lawrence Ferlinghetti

#80
AngryFrozenWater

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Ah, yes. The Catalyst - the brat who found out that after 1 billion years of cyclical genocides of organics to preserve organics, that his solution didn't work... again. Here and there a failed synthesis experiment, but eugenics wizards can't all be perfect, right? Isn't the brat brilliant?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .


#81
Punisher cork

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nhsknudsen wrote...

All I read is "I believe myself above most of you, so my opinion is the one that matters!"


He's the forums's new catalyst. "I am so beyond you, you cannot comprehend me." 
Me: Thats nice, no I don't want my subway sandwich toasted. 

#82
memorysquid

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o Ventus wrote...

His entire premise is based on a logical fallacy. He is, by definition, wrong.

The Catalyst makes an infinite claim, "the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators." To support an infinite claim you need infinite evidence.


Ah, like the AI in the Citadel finance district that claims "probabilty of detection: 100%."  No, you see the problem here is that Mac and Hudson don't care or don't know about Popper and falsification theory.  So AI in Mass Effect that are nice and smart have perfect prediction.  There are several, even numerous errors of logic and rationale in ME.  Focusing on this like a lifeline is just silly.

#83
memorysquid

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nhsknudsen wrote...

All I read is "I believe myself above most of you, so my opinion is the one that matters!"


You'd be getting a big red 'R' I bet.

#84
Mazebook

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Baronesa wrote...

maaaze wrote...

wow...you did not get at all what i was saying...did you?!

how?...how can someone just miss the point so completly?

how is that possible???... can not comprehend the ignorance...just to painful...will have to stop talking to you...to closed minded....bye



“If you're too open-minded; your brains will fall out.”


Lawrence Ferlinghetti


if you are too closed minded you will never get out of the cave.

#85
GreyLycanTrope

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memorysquid wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

All I read is "I believe myself above most of you, so my opinion is the one that matters!"


You'd be getting a big red 'R' I bet.

Appeal to authority started with "As a graduate student I regularly give lectures to undergraduate classes"

#86
darkiddd

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The child is a machine that was created with the purpose of stopping the singularity that happened between organics and machines and it ended up with the conclusion that organics must be eliminated every 50000 years.

But it has reached that conclusion through pure mathematics, it is a machine, it treats only numbers and ecuations and doesn't contemplate other possibilities. It's even the confirmation of its own conclusion: it rebelled against its own creators.

The child represents the tyranny of the very same rule he was created to avoid. It doesn't understand hope or freedom. It is a machine that can't learn anything and is limited by its own rules. His solution is stagnant and will always be.

It may be millions of years old but it hasn't learned anything since its creation and would never do. Do I have to believe in its circular logic because its older than me and Shepard when all my experiences through a point of view it would never understand point to the contrary?

It's true the quarian geth peace is not a fact that disproves entirely its assertions. Maybe the peace won't last or maybe it will. This is were hope comes into play, an element that a machine that handles pure numbers could never understand. Is hope silly from a scientific and mathematical point of view? yes it is. But hope isn't stupid from a human point of view and this is what drives us. And if anyone as the child thinks hope is futile then they should just join the reapers from the beginning.

When you destroy him and the reapers other solutions will present and other choices will have to be taken. Good or bad, correct or incorrect but they will be taken freely without the reapers and their control, with the confidence on a better future and not with the pessimistic view the reapers had on this matter, a view that was a fail since its conception and never expected something better.

#87
bleetman

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bgroberts wrote...

As I said earlier, research does not prove something infallibly—it suggests. This is something which the Catalyst understands and why he admits that his solutions are and have been imperfect. He is a number crunching machine, however, and his research indicates and suggests that organics will create hostile synthetics with enough certainty that action is warranted. It may not be 100% certainty, he does not need to be a “god” and be omniscient, but he is a machine that has calculated extremely long odds and cannot afford to gamble. He may have been standing up much less firm ground at the very beginning, with only maybe a few thousands of years of experience, but since then he has amassed a very impressive set of case studies.

Which would be fine, if the Catalyst was suggesting that synthetic rebellion was a possible consequence. That it was probable. That it was considerably more likely than not, based on demonstrated evidence.

The Catalyst does no such thing. It gives no evidence. It gives no previous examples, or explains what its conclusion is based on even in the most abbreviated terms. It provides nothing, whilst maintaining that its conclusion is the only possible conclusion that could ever happen, to the point of it being an inevitability. It contradicts itself, repeatedly, makes absolute assertions and then demands Shepard co-operate with them. And really, what evidence could it have? By its own admission, it purges advanced organic life before synthetics become a problem. Every cycle it reaps adds neither experience nor evidence, because the whole point is to prevent what it has definitvely concluded is going to happen. It could reap a thousand civilisations and gain nothing that supports what it is saying. The only cycles we know about are the current one and the previous, and neither support what it's concluded. If you're asking me to dismiss those inf avour of theoretical examples that are never mentioned but I should apparently assume support its case, uhm. No.

Anyone who conducts and publishes research along those lines should be torn an academic new one, because they have all the integrity of a damp sock. I could devote a lifetime of study towards a particular project, but if all I have to show for it by the end is "well, look, you'll just have to take my word for it", nobody in their right mind should, and the Catalyst doesn't even manage that much. That it's - assuming that it even is, since it makes no claim towards such itself that I can remember - basing this on billions of years of research means nothing to me. It has nothing to support what it's saying but platitudes and empty threats.

In short, the Catalyst is that guy that has an extremely awesome thesis paper backed up by years of research, dozens of sources, and a number of statistically reliable studies while you are the slacker with an eight page paper you wrote overnight that sources Wikipedia and a few three page articles. You're paper may not be any less “true”, but your one dubious study that disagrees with the Catalyst's two dozen peer-reviewed and reliable studies does not stake a competent position.

No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing. In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence, but neither presents any directly or when requested, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data that completely goes against what it has absolutely concluded, beyond any doubt, with no alternatives whatsoever.

Sorry, but no. The Catalyst is a day-time TV guest who adamantly predicts the doom of society at the hands of murderous children, fueled by computer games. All hot air and weak, unsubstantiated arguments that reference some study sometime by some guy, that crumble under even the most rudimentary examination.

Modifié par bleetman, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .


#88
KLGChaos

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There's one problem with the argument. Starchild didn't see thousands of cycles of synthetics rebelling against their creators. What he saw was ONE cycle fighting it out, the first, and then decided to create the Reapers to stop it. As the unreliable narrator that he is, you have to wonder how many cycles went by where they just harvested organics on the assumption that synthetics would rebel, without it actually happening. He's basing all his logic off that first cycle.

Due to his logic, no matter how long peace lasts, he can claim that "eventually" synthetics will rebel. It's basically a similar type of logic religions use when they tell someone to prove their wrong. You can't prove a negative. Bascally, what we're looking at is a guy with a handful of evidence, but absolutely no proof, but believes he's absolutely right.

And trying to tell the faithful they're wrong.... you're better off just shooting yourself in the head.

Honestly, I can get exactly what Hudson was going for with the ending. It's some metaphysical faith vs. proof, cerebral thing. Sadly, in the attempt to create something like that, he completely forgot about the emotion and logic of the rest of the series.

Modifié par KLGChaos, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:10 .


#89
Mazebook

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bleetman wrote...
No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing.

In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence (though given the nature of what it's doing, the only way it could have anything of the kind is if it failed at what it was doing) but provides absolutely nothing of it when presenting it, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data.

Sorry, but no.


Catalyst : So youre Civilization will be wiped out in about...10 minutes or so....but first let me show you all my Data I have collected over the last 1 Million years, so you can truly understand where i am coming from.

So there was before the first cycle...[...]...and then there was cycle number 215...

Shaperd? Are you still there? 

Hey? I am talking to you...oh sh*t :unsure:...he is dead...as is everyone else...well...that went well...:whistle:

#90
GreyLycanTrope

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maaaze wrote...

bleetman wrote...
No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing.

In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence (though given the nature of what it's doing, the only way it could have anything of the kind is if it failed at what it was doing) but provides absolutely nothing of it when presenting it, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data.

Sorry, but no.


Catalyst : So youre Civilization will be wiped out in about...10 minutes or so....but first let me show you all my Data I have collected over the last 1 Million years, so you can truly understand where i am coming from.

So there was before the first cycle...[...]...and then there was cycle number 215...

Shaperd? Are you still there? 

Hey? I am talking to you...oh sh*t :unsure:...he is dead...as is everyone else...well...that went well...:whistle:

Considering he's the one controling the death machines this point is moot, he could tell them to take a break, they're suppossedly unstoppable anyways right. What difference would taking a few mintues to go over it make. Other than proving he didn't have much to back up his claim.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .


#91
elitehunter34

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maaaze wrote...

bleetman wrote...
No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing.

In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence (though given the nature of what it's doing, the only way it could have anything of the kind is if it failed at what it was doing) but provides absolutely nothing of it when presenting it, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data.

Sorry, but no.


Catalyst : So youre Civilization will be wiped out in about...10 minutes or so....but first let me show you all my Data I have collected over the last 1 Million years, so you can truly understand where i am coming from.

So there was before the first cycle...[...]...and then there was cycle number 215...

Shaperd? Are you still there? 

Hey? I am talking to you...oh sh*t :unsure:...he is dead...as is everyone else...well...that went well...:whistle:

He controls the Reapers. He can stop them for 5 minutes to give the organics a data file so they can look at it.  

#92
TheDarkDefender

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bleetman wrote...

Which would be fine, if the Catalyst was suggesting that synthetic rebellion was a possible consequence. That it was probable. That it was considerably more likely than not, based on demonstrated evidence.

The Catalyst does no such thing. It gives no evidence. It gives no previous examples, or explains what its conclusion is based on even in the most abbreviated terms. It provides nothing, whilst maintaining that its conclusion is the only possible conclusion that could ever happen, to the point of it being an inevitability. It contradicts itself, repeatedly, makes these asbolute assertions and then demands Shepard co-operate with them.

Anyone who conducts and publishes research along those lines should be torn an academic new one, because they have all the integrity of a damn sock. I could devote a lifetime of study towards a particular project, but if all I have to show for it by the end is "well, look, you'll just have to take my word for it", nobody in their right mind should. That the Catalyst is apparently basing this on billions of years of research means nothing to me. It has nothing to support what it's saying but platitudes and empty threats.


I was just about to post something very similar. All we have is this catalysts word that synthetics will always rebel. We have one example of that happening and that was the catalyst himself. But we have two examples of the Reapers making synthetics rebel, the Geth and the synthetics in the Prothean cycle (can't remember their name), this isn't confirmed but I find it suspicious that they start having a war just before the Reaper invasion.

 I also find his statement that the Reapers don't want to kill everyone a bit dodgey. In the 1st game it's heavily implied, by the Rachni Queen, that Soveraign started the Rachni War and the Citadel races would have lost if not for the Krogan. The Krogan weren't space faring at the time so Soveraign couldn't have forseen their inclusion in the war, so at the very least, Soveraign wanted to kill billions of people.

Modifié par TheDarkDefender, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .


#93
bleetman

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Or hell, even a brief summary.

Or, and let's not get too crazy here, but maybe the existing plot and events of Mass Effect as a series could've supported what it was saying, rather than constantly contradicting it. I know! Madness!

But we have two examples of the Reapers making synthetics rebel, the Geth and the synthetics in the Prothean cycle (can't remember their name), this isn't confirmed but I find it suspicious that they start having a war just before the Reaper invasion.

The Zha'til.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely."


Oh hey, look who caused that particular problem? And hey look, the Protheans solved it by themselves, without needing their entire civilisation destroyed. They survived the metacons too, as it happens.

But yeah no they don't count the Catalyst must have previous data we just don't know about, and thus we should take it completely at its word.

Modifié par bleetman, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:37 .


#94
Baronesa

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bleetman wrote...

Or hell, even a brief summary.

Or, and let's not get too crazy here, but maybe the existing plot and events of Mass Effect as a series could've supported what it was saying. I know! Madness!


But that would not be art in the eyes of the Awsome Duo and their followers, the anaerobic men!

#95
Mazebook

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elitehunter34 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

bleetman wrote...
No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing.

In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence (though given the nature of what it's doing, the only way it could have anything of the kind is if it failed at what it was doing) but provides absolutely nothing of it when presenting it, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data.

Sorry, but no.


Catalyst : So youre Civilization will be wiped out in about...10 minutes or so....but first let me show you all my Data I have collected over the last 1 Million years, so you can truly understand where i am coming from.

So there was before the first cycle...[...]...and then there was cycle number 215...

Shaperd? Are you still there? 

Hey? I am talking to you...oh sh*t :unsure:...he is dead...as is everyone else...well...that went well...:whistle:

He controls the Reapers. He can stop them for 5 minutes to give the organics a data file so they can look at it.  


yes...just stop fighting everyone!...everybody just stop fighting for a moment!
I have to explain something to Shaperd ...he is a little slow...

does not ruin the pacing at all...just to prove something...we already know and can assume...

really? what would this scene add?

comformation on whats already established.

#96
Mazebook

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bleetman wrote...

Or hell, even a brief summary.

Or, and let's not get too crazy here, but maybe the existing plot and events of Mass Effect as a series could've supported what it was saying, rather than constantly contradicting it. I know! Madness!

. But we have two examples of the Reapers making synthetics rebel, the
Geth and the synthetics in the Prothean cycle (can't remember their
name), this isn't confirmed but I find it suspicious that they start
having a war just before the Reaper invasion.

The Zha'til.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized
control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic
material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic
monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to
multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no
other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system
into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.
"


Oh hey, look who caused that particular problem? And hey look, the Protheans solved it by themselves, without needing their entire civilisation destroyed. They survived the metacons too, as it happens.

But yeah no they don't count the Catalyst must have previous data we just don't know about, and thus we should take it completely at its word.


Name one case...one case...where the created did not rebel against their creators.

just one.

#97
Baronesa

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maaaze wrote...

yes...just stop fighting everyone!...everybody just stop fighting for a moment!
I have to explain something to Shaperd ...he is a little slow...

does not ruin the pacing at all...just to prove something...we already know and can assume...

really? what would this scene add?

comformation on whats already established.


Funny that you claim it was already established, when there are so many instances that actually show the opposite of what the Catalyst presents.

Maybe that lack of oxygen is taking it's toll

#98
Baronesa

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maaaze wrote...

Name one case...one case...where the created did not rebel against their creators.

just one.


No no... select the entire premise, lil maaaze

Quote mining the part you want to confirm forgetting the other part that draw the whole thing to the mud is dishonest, but that does not surprise me.

What happened with "Synthetic life will destroy ALL organic life"

Try to not quotemine as much and be a lil bit more honest on the discussion, because right now it almost seems like you are taking your debating points directly from the Discovery Institute

#99
Priss Blackburne

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The AI onboard the virtual Aliens ship.

The Geth didn't rebel against their creators, they defended themselves from them. Ceasing their attack on them once they left. The only time the Geth sought out conflict against organics was under Reaper control.

EDI again defended herself against Cerberus, she did not maliciously attack Cerberous only blocked their attempts to regain control over Her.

I don't equate defending oneself or trying to gain freedom from enslavment with the type of rebeling the catalyst is thinking.

#100
elitehunter34

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maaaze wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

bleetman wrote...
No it doesn't, and no we're not. The Catalyst provides nothing - nothing - to support what it's asserting. Nothing.

In this case, the Catalyst might have an exceptional thesis paper, and it may indeed be backed up by extensive supporting evidence (though given the nature of what it's doing, the only way it could have anything of the kind is if it failed at what it was doing) but provides absolutely nothing of it when presenting it, whilst completely ignoring contradictory data.

Sorry, but no.


Catalyst : So youre Civilization will be wiped out in about...10 minutes or so....but first let me show you all my Data I have collected over the last 1 Million years, so you can truly understand where i am coming from.

So there was before the first cycle...[...]...and then there was cycle number 215...

Shaperd? Are you still there? 

Hey? I am talking to you...oh sh*t :unsure:...he is dead...as is everyone else...well...that went well...:whistle:

He controls the Reapers. He can stop them for 5 minutes to give the organics a data file so they can look at it.  


yes...just stop fighting everyone!...everybody just stop fighting for a moment!
I have to explain something to Shaperd ...he is a little slow...

does not ruin the pacing at all...just to prove something...we already know and can assume...

really? what would this scene add?

comformation on whats already established.

He needs Shepard to activate the Crucible.  What if Shepard demands evidence?  The Catalyst wants a better solution so it makes no sense why he would refuse to give Shepard data when he easily could.  The Catalyst could easily send a data file to EDI and the geth.  He doesn't necessarily have to stop everything.  Even if he did, the Reapers are faster and stronger, they could easily stay out of range.

We're not talking about this from a gameplay perspective so that doesn't really matter.  They could easily add a 10 second scene of EDI or the geth or maybe both scanning the data to see if what he's saying is really true.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .