20 réponses à ce sujet

[Ironhandjustice]

The answer for me is obvious, that's the reason I didn't see it first...

"The citadel is part of me"
"So your technology develops in the way we want"
"You can't understand our nature"

The starkid is the hive reaper mind. The part of the collective conciousness of the reapers, divided on each of them, uploaded to every individual. Is the networking IA that express their will.

Explained that, the citadel was hacked by the protheans, that destroyed the citadel's network interface.

Every 50.000 years, a signal is sent within the network, the citadel receives it, and the keepers start the program. Why them? because an internal system can be hacked. The protheans discovered the trap: the keepers were the backup system to avoid hacking, so they disabled them.

Why, then, the starchild did not activated the relay on ME1? Because his "citadel node" was destroyed by the protheans.

Sovereign still had the network interface, so, he was repairing the interface at the same time he was trying to manually open the relay (using Saren to do so). That is the reason of the conduit: redundance. Sovereign needed to be at the same time as Saren at the citadel to double check. Safeguard mechanism.

Double check anything:

-Citadel/Relay and keeper
-Saren manual opening/networking catalyst repair.

This also explains:

-Why the Reapers move the Citadel to Earth. They needed to repair the network interface, using their personal copy to restore as backup.
-Why the citadel acts as relay on ME3 sending crucible signal on the relay network: the interface was active again.
-Why catalyst is on the citadel again. He was deleted by the protheans.
-Why the reapers define itselves as "nations". The catalyst is just an interface to "make consenses", as Legion said: "The reapers are the geth dream, united and independent, not united and interdependent". So, the catalyst is the Reaper United Nations chairman xD

Thoughts?

(PS: I'm not english-native, feel free to correct typos :innocent:)

[Ironhandjustice]

FTL bump

[Adugan]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

This also explains:

-Why the Reapers move the Citadel to Earth. They needed to repair the network interface, using their personal copy to restore as backup.  Why Earth? Why not the Batarian homeworld, Asari, or Turian?
-Why the citadel acts as relay on ME3 sending crucible signal on the relay network: the interface was active again.
-Why catalyst is on the citadel again. He was deleted by the protheans. If they can delete him, why couldnt we try to? Why did Shepard blindly follow its orders without attempting to seek alternatives?
-Why the reapers define itselves as "nations". The catalyst is just an interface to "make consenses", as Legion said: "The reapers are the geth dream, united and independent, not united and interdependent". So, the catalyst is the Reaper United Nations chairman xD So without him they have no concensus? What did the Reapers do while the old Catalyst was deleted? Did they sit in darkspace and derp until they met up and made a new one?

Bolded is me answering

[Ironhandjustice]

Adugan wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

This also explains:

-Why the Reapers move the Citadel to Earth. They needed to repair the network interface, using their personal copy to restore as backup.  Why Earth? Why not the Batarian homeworld, Asari, or Turian?
Humans are mentioned to be the next reaper. Evolutive programming. They are still machines
-Why the citadel acts as relay on ME3 sending crucible signal on the relay network: the interface was active again.
-Why catalyst is on the citadel again. He was deleted by the protheans. If they can delete him, why couldnt we try to? Why did Shepard blindly follow its orders without attempting to seek alternatives? The protheans could. Sheppard is almost dead, and the problem is that we don't know how many time it will take... But, to be honest, I'm not pro -ender xD
-Why the reapers define itselves as "nations". The catalyst is just an interface to "make consenses", as Legion said: "The reapers are the geth dream, united and independent, not united and interdependent". So, the catalyst is the Reaper United Nations chairman xD So without him they have no concensus? What did the Reapers do while the old Catalyst was deleted? Did they sit in darkspace and derp until they met up and made a new one? You didn't understood me. Is like computers. If you kill the network process in one machine, this machine becames out the network, but the others can still network between themselves. So, only the Dark Space relay was out of reaper-net. Perhaps Sovereign was cut-off too. The starkid is only a minor IA program over a HUGE ia.

Bolded is me answering

Re Answered you

[Adugan]

Now that just looks like a really terrible quote, lol

[Ironhandjustice]

I can fix it if you want xD

[Haargel]

Sounds legit.

Well done.

[flanny]

the idea of the catalyst never existed in ME1, the protheans stopped the keepers from hearing the reaper signal. even if he was, the protheans didn't know about the catalyst so wouldn't make any attempt to stop it.

Like much of ME1 and ME2, the whole idea of sovereign needing to access the citadel is ignored

edit: also the catalyst made the reapers and is an overlord, they are his tools, he is not a collective consciousness

Modifié par flanny, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:05 .

[Hendrik.III]

Starchild cannot be an AI program, because then his existence would contradict his reason to be.

- Catalyst stops organics from building AI, for it will destroy them
- Catalyst is AI

Of course he does prove that AI kill organics, but he mutes his own argument that it will be their doom, for he himself would be the proof to the contrary, allowing organic life to remain.

So either the Catalyst is not an AI, or he's a bloody liar. In case of the latter, the ending can't be as it is now.

Modifié par Hendrik.III, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[Lax0r]

Hendrik.III wrote...
Starchild cannot be an AI program, because then his existence would contradict his reason to be.

The Catalyst is already contradicting himself. He claims to be dependent on Shepard, but after refusing his solutions, he has no need for Shepards help and ignores him.

Doesn't matter anyway...

Even if OP would be actual lore, there are so many other things that doesn't add up. For example: Take the Citadel and the Crucible and how they work together, despite the fact they were built by synthetics and organics respectively.

BW obviously wants us to choose in what we believe, the ending could mean.

Well, and I'm sick and tired arguing about it, because I doubt BW will deliver anytime soon. Or ever will for that matter.

I'm gonna headcanon the IT from now on. Feel free to agree with me or not. Choose your own ending, like BW apparently wants you to.

I'm happy, everyone is happy...

Well, kind of ...

[flanny]

Hendrik.III wrote...

Starchild cannot be an AI program, because then his existence would contradict his reason to be.

- Catalyst stops organics from building AI, for it will destroy them
- Catalyst is AI

Of course he does prove that AI kill organics, but he mutes his own argument that it will be their doom, for he himself would be the proof to the contrary, allowing organic life to remain.

So either the Catalyst is not an AI, or he's a bloody liar. In case of the latter, the ending can't be as it is now.

i think it is simply rushed writing, 'oh no, EA want the game in few months what's the best you got?'

[Ironhandjustice]

flanny wrote...

Hendrik.III wrote...

Starchild cannot be an AI program, because then his existence would contradict his reason to be.

- Catalyst stops organics from building AI, for it will destroy them
- Catalyst is AI

Of course he does prove that AI kill organics, but he mutes his own argument that it will be their doom, for he himself would be the proof to the contrary, allowing organic life to remain.

So either the Catalyst is not an AI, or he's a bloody liar. In case of the latter, the ending can't be as it is now.

i think it is simply rushed writing, 'oh no, EA want the game in few months what's the best you got?'

Sounds legit. But every reaper is IA. If you prefer, we can call Starkid "VI", is just an interface for the reapers.

Is not an overlord anymore. He claims to be the "collective mind" of the reapers, AKA, a proxy to interact with everyone of them. It WAS an overlord previously. "They are my solution" is the "solution of the consense" for me, not the solution of an overlord. Is very BAD explained.

On the other hand, if you read Asimovs books, you realize that every rogue IA goes rogue because of a misunderstood or a circular logic.

The easy example is:
"
-You send a robot to mine. The robot has orders to mine and return, but he is programmed to avoid to be destoyed.

This is easy. Well, what if the rock he has to mine is a radioactive one? You put him a shield.

And what about if the shield is not enought?

Well, the robot starts to move in circles around the rock, searching for a less-radiating point to start mining. Forever.
"

The starchild proxy logic is the same: "We must mine organics because if we do something different, the organics will be destroyed. Otherwise, synthesys is the pinaccle of evolution. We are the pinnacle, so, if we melt organics, we are protecting them at the same time we are ascending them. With no further conditions, the solution is fine"

Twisted? yes. You alter the conditions (a less radiated zone in the example) and the robot can do his work and go home. IA's are not completely human, the will have always a base coding.

But if you see the fourth foundation book (In spanish, "The limits of the foundation"), the main character has the SAME decisions we have.

-Help A (Destroy)
-Help B (Control)
-Help C (Synthesys)

The difference is that the decisions are not shown by a proxy-ai, are shown by the A.B.C factions.

All of this, only to explain that the "starkid" is only a program within the reaper mind. A program the reapers use to interface organics as a whole. Harbinger, on ME2, seems to be the "guardian" of the whole fleet if the Sovereign fails.

Again same thing, Soverreign fails, and Harbinger assumes direct control (redundant safeguard system) to continue the cicle. Safeguards over safeguards everywhere.

[iSousek]

Basically you are trying to say that Protheans destroyed Catalyst originally and Sovereign is lord of multitasking (repairing catalys + activating citadel + fighting fleet)

There is absolutely no in-game, out-game, twitter, facebook, Comic Panel or any other source to prove this assertions.

Everything you said can be explained via different reasons, like for example, Reapers are delusional, they believe they are autonomous and independant but they are not, like pupets who dont realize they are controlled by master of puppets (insert MetallicA riff here )

I'm out of here

[krasnoarmeets]

Saren locating and using the conduit was not a question of redundancy, the conduit was a backdoor to the citadel. Saren was able to get in with a force of geth, disable security, let Sovereign in, close the citadel arms, so Sovereign could hack away in peace to activate the mass relay... it wasn't a question of redundancy, it was sound strategy. It simply wouldn't have worked otherwise. It was explained in the dialogue. Sovereign wasn't invincible and couldn't just assault the citadel. Security protocols in place would have dictated that the citadel fleet would engage the force in space while the citadel was sealed making hacking impossible seeing as it appeared to require physical interaction. One reaper capital ship against the citadel fleet alone wouldn't have been able to do the job. Yes, the catalyst idea is retarded. It is moronic to think that an entity that created and controlled the reapers, that was in fact a part of the citadel couldn't simply activate the mass relay all by itself. It's a plot hole the size of the pacific ocean. None of it makes sense though. That's why so many people are so upset.

One of the more idiotic dilemmas this creates is a chicken and egg situation. Given that the catalyst is the citadel and citadel is the catalyst and the reapers created the mass relays and the citadel is a giant mass relay... therefore the reapers created the citadel? So the reapers created the catalyst? What day is it again?

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:40 .

[Ironhandjustice]

iSousek wrote...

Basically you are trying to say that Protheans destroyed Catalyst originally and Sovereign is lord of multitasking (repairing catalys + activating citadel + fighting fleet)

There is absolutely no in-game, out-game, twitter, facebook, Comic Panel or any other source to prove this assertions.

Everything you said can be explained via different reasons, like for example, Reapers are delusional, they believe they are autonomous and independant but they are not, like pupets who dont realize they are controlled by master of puppets (insert MetallicA riff here )

I'm out of here

Nope, there is not proof, is MY opinion. You can like it or not. I haven't said otherwise xD

[Ironhandjustice]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Saren locating and using the conduit was not a question of redundancy, the conduit was a backdoor to the citadel. Saren was able to get in with a force of geth, disable security, let Sovereign in, close the citadel arms, so Sovereign could hack away in peace to activate the mass relay... it wasn't a question of redundancy, it was sound strategy. It simply wouldn't have worked otherwise. It was explained in the dialogue. Sovereign wasn't invincible and couldn't just assault the citadel. Security protocols in place would have dictated that the citadel fleet would engage the force in space while the citadel was sealed making hacking impossible seeing as it appeared to require physical interaction. One reaper capital ship against the citadel fleet alone wouldn't have been able to do the job. Yes, the catalyst idea is retarded. It is moronic to think that an entity that created and controlled the reapers, that was in fact a part of the citadel couldn't simply activate the mass relay all by itself. It's a plot hole the size of the pacific ocean. None of it makes sense though. That's why so many people are so upset.

One of the more idiotic dilemmas this creates is a chicken and egg situation. Given that the catalyst is the citadel and citadel is the catalyst and the reapers created the mass relays and the citadel is a giant mass relay... therefore the reapers created the citadel? So the reapers created the catalyst? What day is it again?

Point given. Saren was necessary to access network control and relive the VI and avoid citadel fleet.

The starkid only reasonable explation, I think, is the one have alredy given. He is NOT a demigod pressence, not a master puppeter. Just an IV/IA interface, broken by the protheans.

This disabled the Citadel Relay, and the reapers went cut-off from the network. So Sovereign had to multi-task repair it, re-uploading the interface, and undoing the prothean mess.

If is only a reaper plugin, the chicken-egg problem is self solved. If not, is

[krasnoarmeets]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Point given. Saren was necessary to access network control and relive the VI and avoid citadel fleet.

The starkid only reasonable explation, I think, is the one have alredy given. He is NOT a demigod pressence, not a master puppeter. Just an IV/IA interface, broken by the protheans.

This disabled the Citadel Relay, and the reapers went cut-off from the network. So Sovereign had to multi-task repair it, re-uploading the interface, and undoing the prothean mess.

If is only a reaper plugin, the chicken-egg problem is self solved. If not, is

That doesn't make sense and it wasn't what I was getting at. None of the latest additions to the story mesh with the original because they are in no way related to it. Someone literally pulled it out of his ar$3 at the last moment. In ME1 it was firmly established that the keepers were key to controlling the citadel, activating the giant mass relay both through the main storyline and if you bothered to do it hinted at by doing the sidequest scanning the keepers for Chorban, who in ME2 sends you a message saying that they're waiting for a signal to take some action. This signal was supposed to come from the reapers themselves. What the protheans messed with was not some mystical BS that some nitwit came up with in the last 5 minutes, rather it was the type of signal that the keepers were expecting. Let's apply a language analogy to this. The keepers being the croissant lovers they were all originally spoke French and wore berets. By the time the protheans were finished with them they spoke only German wore leather shorts and were only interested in bratwurst and sauerkraut. The next time the reapers sent them a post card of the Eiffel tower the keepers could no longer understand the appeal and blew them endless raspberries... the chicken egg problem created by the mystical BS cannot solve itself as it is, quite simply, retarded.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[ZLurps]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Point given. Saren was necessary to access network control and relive the VI and avoid citadel fleet.

The starkid only reasonable explation, I think, is the one have alredy given. He is NOT a demigod pressence, not a master puppeter. Just an IV/IA interface, broken by the protheans.

This disabled the Citadel Relay, and the reapers went cut-off from the network. So Sovereign had to multi-task repair it, re-uploading the interface, and undoing the prothean mess.

If is only a reaper plugin, the chicken-egg problem is self solved. If not, is

That doesn't make sense and it wasn't what I was getting at. None of the latest additions to the story mesh with the original because they are in no way related to it. Someone literally pulled it out of his ar$3 at the last moment. In ME1 it was firmly established that the keepers were key to controlling the citadel, activating the giant mass relay both through the main storyline and if you bothered to do it hinted at by doing the sidequest scanning the keepers for Chorban, who in ME2 sends you a message saying that they're waiting for a signal to take some action. This signal was supposed to come from the reapers themselves. What the protheans messed with was not some mystical BS that some nitwit came up with in the last 5 minutes, rather it was the type of signal that the keepers were expecting. Let's apply a language analogy to this. The keepers being the croissant lovers they were all originally spoke French and wore berets. By the time the protheans were finished with them they spoke only German wore leather shorts and were only interested in bratwurst and sauerkraut. The next time the reapers sent them a post card of the Eiffel tower the keepers could no longer understand the appeal and blew them endless raspberries... the chicken egg problem created by the mystical BS cannot solve itself as it is, quite simply, retarded.

Win.

[Ironhandjustice]

ZLurps wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Point given. Saren was necessary to access network control and relive the VI and avoid citadel fleet.

The starkid only reasonable explation, I think, is the one have alredy given. He is NOT a demigod pressence, not a master puppeter. Just an IV/IA interface, broken by the protheans.

This disabled the Citadel Relay, and the reapers went cut-off from the network. So Sovereign had to multi-task repair it, re-uploading the interface, and undoing the prothean mess.

If is only a reaper plugin, the chicken-egg problem is self solved. If not, is

That doesn't make sense and it wasn't what I was getting at. None of the latest additions to the story mesh with the original because they are in no way related to it. Someone literally pulled it out of his ar$3 at the last moment. In ME1 it was firmly established that the keepers were key to controlling the citadel, activating the giant mass relay both through the main storyline and if you bothered to do it hinted at by doing the sidequest scanning the keepers for Chorban, who in ME2 sends you a message saying that they're waiting for a signal to take some action. This signal was supposed to come from the reapers themselves. What the protheans messed with was not some mystical BS that some nitwit came up with in the last 5 minutes, rather it was the type of signal that the keepers were expecting. Let's apply a language analogy to this. The keepers being the croissant lovers they were all originally spoke French and wore berets. By the time the protheans were finished with them they spoke only German wore leather shorts and were only interested in bratwurst and sauerkraut. The next time the reapers sent them a post card of the Eiffel tower the keepers could no longer understand the appeal and blew them endless raspberries... the chicken egg problem created by the mystical BS cannot solve itself as it is, quite simply, retarded.

Win.

Ok, lets become simplier...

Starkid is uploaded to the citadel after every cycle to coordinate reaper forces as United Nations program.

This cycle, was uploaded AND moved to Earth in order to make easier the repairs of the citadel mess made by the protheans.

Better? Is still and interface.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The fact he says something like "The Reapers aren't interested in your war" shows how little he's actually in control of anything.

[Ownedbacon]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Point given. Saren was necessary to access network control and relive the VI and avoid citadel fleet.

The starkid only reasonable explation, I think, is the one have alredy given. He is NOT a demigod pressence, not a master puppeter. Just an IV/IA interface, broken by the protheans.

This disabled the Citadel Relay, and the reapers went cut-off from the network. So Sovereign had to multi-task repair it, re-uploading the interface, and undoing the prothean mess.

If is only a reaper plugin, the chicken-egg problem is self solved. If not, is

That doesn't make sense and it wasn't what I was getting at. None of the latest additions to the story mesh with the original because they are in no way related to it. Someone literally pulled it out of his ar$3 at the last moment. In ME1 it was firmly established that the keepers were key to controlling the citadel, activating the giant mass relay both through the main storyline and if you bothered to do it hinted at by doing the sidequest scanning the keepers for Chorban, who in ME2 sends you a message saying that they're waiting for a signal to take some action. This signal was supposed to come from the reapers themselves. What the protheans messed with was not some mystical BS that some nitwit came up with in the last 5 minutes, rather it was the type of signal that the keepers were expecting. Let's apply a language analogy to this. The keepers being the croissant lovers they were all originally spoke French and wore berets. By the time the protheans were finished with them they spoke only German wore leather shorts and were only interested in bratwurst and sauerkraut. The next time the reapers sent them a post card of the Eiffel tower the keepers could no longer understand the appeal and blew them endless raspberries... the chicken egg problem created by the mystical BS cannot solve itself as it is, quite simply, retarded.

This^