825 réponses à ce sujet

[NedPepper]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Oransel wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
People: STOP USING DEUS EX MACHINA as your main point of hatred for ME 3.  The Conduit in ME1 is a giant Deus Ex.  You actually teleport right to the Citadel.....half of the Illusive Man's info about knowing where the Collectors are going to hit?  Deus Ex.  The IM himself is a giant Deus Ex in all of ME2.
.

Wow. Person does not what the term means and tries to teach people. Amazing.

 

I know exactly what it means.  I'm thinking you do not.  It's the God in the Machine.  A plot device that quickly and often illogicially solves an issue in a story, often times used to end a story when the writer has backed himself into a corner.  I'm thinking you have no idea what a deus ex machina is.  Watch the film Adaptation.  It's used on purpose and will give you an example.  Or read Lord of the Rings.  How do you kill an all powerful evil that is destroying the world. The one ring being dropped into the fires of Mordor.  Deus Ex.

The ring in LOTR isn't a DEM. At all.
How ca you even dare o compre it to the rucible and star kid ?

And also, o whoever said otherwise mass effect 3 is isted as an example of ass pull on Tvtropes

It's the same literary device.  I'm not saying one is better than the other. Tolkien used it well.  God, Tokien obsessed with tropes of the storytelling.  The Deus Ex Machina has been used for a long time.  Stephen King has been accused by Harold Bloom (one of the preeminent critics) as being a hack for using the Deus Ex Machina in almost all of his novels.  Does he use them? Yes.  But are you going to say The Stand, It, and  Under the Dome are lesser for it? The end of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark ?  Deus Ex Ending.  They open the ark and all the bad guys melt.  BUT, it's the whole point.  He was using the Deus Ex Machina because, I dunno, it's a divine artifact.  It is used all the time, and to use it as your main argument against ME3 seems silly.

[squee365]

Atakuma wrote...

squee365 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
.  Really?  Now you're just amusing.  But do illuminate my uneducated mind on the literary device known as an "asspull."   Please help us poor ignorant masses.

Probably talking about this.

Note that the site does not list ME3 as an example of the trope.

Edit: their ME3 page is pretty interesting.

 

No, but they do list it as a Diabolus Ex Machina which by the way is worst.

..No they list Harbinger's beam as that. Jeez guys. Are you just intentionally ignoring details to get people upset or are you just not paying that much attention?

The entry is wrong anyway, there's nothing out of left field about a reaper firing a beam at people.

Well its wrong about the beam coming out of left field, but not the tone of the narrative. 

[Kamfrenchie]

nedpepper wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Oransel wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
People: STOP USING DEUS EX MACHINA as your main point of hatred for ME 3.  The Conduit in ME1 is a giant Deus Ex.  You actually teleport right to the Citadel.....half of the Illusive Man's info about knowing where the Collectors are going to hit?  Deus Ex.  The IM himself is a giant Deus Ex in all of ME2.
.

Wow. Person does not what the term means and tries to teach people. Amazing.

 

I know exactly what it means.  I'm thinking you do not.  It's the God in the Machine.  A plot device that quickly and often illogicially solves an issue in a story, often times used to end a story when the writer has backed himself into a corner.  I'm thinking you have no idea what a deus ex machina is.  Watch the film Adaptation.  It's used on purpose and will give you an example.  Or read Lord of the Rings.  How do you kill an all powerful evil that is destroying the world. The one ring being dropped into the fires of Mordor.  Deus Ex.

The ring in LOTR isn't a DEM. At all.
How ca you even dare o compre it to the rucible and star kid ?

And also, o whoever said otherwise mass effect 3 is isted as an example of ass pull on Tvtropes

It's the same literary device.  I'm not saying one is better than the other. Tolkien used it well.  God, Tokien obsessed with tropes of the storytelling.  The Deus Ex Machina has been used for a long time.  Stephen King has been accused by Harold Bloom (one of the preeminent critics) as being a hack for using the Deus Ex Machina in almost all of his novels.  Does he use them? Yes.  But are you going to say The Stand, It, and  Under the Dome are lesser for it? The end of Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark ?  Deus Ex Ending.  They open the ark and all the bad guys melt.  BUT, it's the whole point.  He was using the Deus Ex Machina because, I dunno, it's a divine artifact.  It is used all the time, and to use it as your main argument against ME3 seems silly.

no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible, which origin are ridiculous, appears in the mars archive while it's a place the reapers would have made a clean sweep of , and further more it doesn't even has any explanation as to how it works.

The ring is explained well, and has drawbacks. If frodo just had to say alkazam with the ring inhad to kill sauron, it could be a DEM

But it isnt. And it makes sense, since the ring is the source of sauron power, he put his mind in it and whatnot.


I wouldnt call Raiders of the lost Ark to have aparticularly great scenario anyway. Yeah, maybe it's a DEM that doesn't mean all the rest is.

[Ageless Face]

Oransel wrote...
1. Right now, yes, that would be best. Past is past.

3. Crucible plans on Mars? Well, protheans had not made crucible plans as widespread as possible so next cycle would know about it (unlike Liara's capsule). So, why of all places it was Mars, uninteresting little scientific station? The answer: because developers wanted you to visit Mars after the Earth. No lore-wise explanation or logic.
I have not bolded Crucible as intolerable. I can live with it and play ME3, but it is a big dissapointment overall as it could have been done much much better. Fans have proposed some really interesting alternatives for the Crucible. Yet, Bioware went that way and did it bad. Whatever.

5. Everything about the Catalyst is wrong, non- ME related, unimaginative and badly written. That is my opinion (most of the players think so too). Him being Deus Ex Machina is a fact, on the other hand. For me he is horrible Deus Ex Machina.

3. Why would they want us to visit Mars? They could have just placed the Crucible plans on Earth, make it even more idiotic. It's not that. Was it ever stated that the Crucible plans were not wise spread? I don't believe so. If they did, then I agree, it's complteley idiotic. If not, then the Crucible plans could have been also hidden on other planets, but because of Liara's intel they found the Crucible's plans.

5. On that I think we will need to agree to disagree. I belive the idea is not completley bad, just very poorly executed. If BioWare would have been handeling it better, it could have been fine. Instead of a little boy, show us the real face of the reaper controller. Make more foreshadowing for him. But the base idea- I think it's okay. Not as great as the dark energy, but also good. In my opinion, at least.

[txgoldrush]

squee365 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
.  Really?  Now you're just amusing.  But do illuminate my uneducated mind on the literary device known as an "asspull."   Please help us poor ignorant masses.

Probably talking about this.

Note that the site does not list ME3 as an example of the trope.

Edit: their ME3 page is pretty interesting.

 

No, but they do list it as a Diabolus Ex Machina which by the way is worst.

..No they list Harbinger's beam as that. Jeez guys. Are you just intentionally ignoring details to get people upset or are you just not paying that much attention?

And it isn't one...because they introduce him as coming before the beam attack scene.

[txgoldrush]

For the millionith damn time.

THE CATALYST IS NOT A DEUS EX MACHINA.

WHY?

Because HE is NOT the solution. In fact, its SHEPARD thats is the solution.

Shepard is the Deus Ex here....and in that case, no DEM is involved.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[AlanC9]

nitefyre410 wrote...

1.  I don't intentional  ingore details..

2.  I did not highlight the spoiler.  

3. Which leads to I did not see that Harbinger was listed as that. 

So you said the site was supporting your point, but you didn't actually read what the site was saying?

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[nitefyre410]

AlanC9 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

1.  I don't intentional  ingore details..

2.  I did not highlight the spoiler.  

3. Which leads to I did not see that Harbinger was listed as that. 

So you said the site was supporting your point, but you didn't actually read what the site was saying?

 

No - I Did not  hight light spoiler. 

A mistake on my part ... your point is what? 

[AlanC9]

Kamfrenchie wrote...
no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible,

The Crucible appears a couple hours into ME3. Appearing at the 70% mark is not "the last minute." 

[AlanC9]

nitefyre410 wrote...
No - I Did not  hight light spoiler. 

A mistake on my part ... your point is what? 

That you're doing a farily bad job of admitting that you didn't know what you were talking about.

[Kamfrenchie]

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...
no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible,

The Crucible appears a couple hours into ME3. Appearing at the 70% mark is not "the last minute." 

By that i meant that it appears at the moment all hope is lost and all the characters can expect to die very quickly since they have no plan at all and nothing was prepared for the coming of the reapers.

Alo, ME3 is the last part of the trilogy, so heh, debatable.

[nitefyre410]

AlanC9 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
No - I Did not  hight light spoiler. 

A mistake on my part ... your point is what? 

That you're doing a farily bad job of admitting that you didn't know what you were talking about.

 


Because being right or wrong on  the BSN really does not matter all that much... honestly. 
 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:39 .

[AlanC9]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Because being right or wrong on  the BSN really does not matter all that much... honestly. 

Yep. All the more reason not  to try to wiggle out of it. when you're caught.

[nitefyre410]

AlanC9 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Because being right or wrong on  the BSN really does not matter all that much... honestly. 

Yep. All the more reason not  to try to wiggle out of it. when you're caught.

 

I am not trying to  wiggle out of anything... I was wrong... so what?  

Do you want a cookie, a cookie,  a gold star 

was not the first time ,won't be the last.   

Modifié par nitefyre410, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:42 .

[AlanC9]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...
no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible,

The Crucible appears a couple hours into ME3. Appearing at the 70% mark is not "the last minute." 

By that i meant that it appears at the moment all hope is lost and all the characters can expect to die very quickly since they have no plan at all and nothing was prepared for the coming of the reapers.

OK. So "last minute" in the sense of the last chance, not in the sense of the story being almost over. But if that's the case then Tolkien's One Ring is a DEM too, since there's no realistic plan to defeat Sauron other than using the Ring.

Alo, ME3 is the last part of the trilogy, so heh, debatable.

YMMV, depending on how many DLCs you had for the earlier games and how you played them. For me all three games took about the same number of hours, so 70% is about right.

[Kulbelbolka]

OP need to add this points to his list:
Two deus ex machinas in one game is two much (blueprints of Crucible, which ACCIDENTIALY was found on Mars by Liara and The Catalyst himself)

Very bad dialogues, just like in military-shooters ("this is it, isn't it? - yeah, this is it" as the most dramatic dialogue in the game). When I'm playing ME1-2 I just can't skip any of the dialogue, they are so good written and played. I can't say that about ME3.

Very cheap try to make player feel depressed and guilty by killing child in front of Shepard and showing us this twisted dreams. I don't care about this child, I care about Anderson who stays on Earth to be leader of resistance. In my opinion - this is the moment when player partly loses his identity with Shepard. It must be felt like: oh God, so many people died and so much more will die soon. But instead of this my only question was "Why Shepard feels so much pain about some random child?".

Then my own opinion:
Shooting part is worse than in ME2 - absolutely no sense of firing except for Widow and Grail.
Graphics and facial animation is worse than in ME3 - and that's after Bioware's statement about improving facial animation in ME3 - no emotions, just opening mouthes. Only few in few moments characters showing us some kind of believable facial expressions/
Scenes direction is lame - you can see really good work only in beginning and in the end of the game. Between this two parts there is level of middle 2000-s videogames.
New characters that doesn't go well with game's universe - Diana Allers? Kai Leng? Cortez and Samantha? I understand that they only role is to attract new people to franchise (Kai Leng for anime-fans, Cortez and Samantha for gays and lesbians, Diana Allers and James Vega for Jersey Shore fans), but Bioware should just try to put them in the world of game with more effort. Instead of Allers it would be better to pick Emily Wong, but Bioware decided to kill her in Alliance News. Instead of Vega it was better to take Grunt and Kelly Chambers is obviously more interesting character than Samantha. And I should say that this new characters is absolutely useless for plot of the game - they have no connection to the story, they are like hovering in the air.

But still there are some really good moments which feels like true Mass Effect (the whole segment on Rannoch, for example), but there are not many of them.

Third part has no ME feeling and gameplay became too primitive.

Modifié par Kulbelbolka, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .

[alsonamedbort]

As for all the criticism about the Crucible plans happening to be on Mars, is it possible that the Protheans hid them there because they realized that the Reapers were sparing Earth and decided it would leave them within striking distance of one of the next cycle races? I would argue that it is. That calls for speculation, of course, but it's not necessarily true that the Crucible being on Mars was as contrived as some on this thread would have it seem.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

just because mass effect 3 didnt do every single little thing you wanted it to do, dosent meen its bad

[robertthebard]

alsonamedbort wrote...

As for all the criticism about the Crucible plans happening to be on Mars, is it possible that the Protheans hid them there because they realized that the Reapers were sparing Earth and decided it would leave them within striking distance of one of the next cycle races? I would argue that it is. That calls for speculation, of course, but it's not necessarily true that the Crucible being on Mars was as contrived as some on this thread would have it seem.

It's also apparent that short of Point and Shoot, some people didn't really play the game, since there's a codex entry that indicates that the archive with the plans is a secondary dig site that has only recently been discovered.  Pardon this interruption of actual game lore, we now take you back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories.

[MOELANDER]

I agree with the OP. But there is one thing I would change:

ME3 is not a bad game... it's a boring, repetitive game. How come I get more enjoyment out of Mario Jump'n'Runs than this game. The Autodialogue takes away my choice and sends me on a fixed path. ME3 bores me to sleep.

[Kamfrenchie]

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...
no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible,

The Crucible appears a couple hours into ME3. Appearing at the 70% mark is not "the last minute." 

By that i meant that it appears at the moment all hope is lost and all the characters can expect to die very quickly since they have no plan at all and nothing was prepared for the coming of the reapers.

OK. So "last minute" in the sense of the last chance, not in the sense of the story being almost over. But if that's the case then Tolkien's One Ring is a DEM too, since there's no realistic plan to defeat Sauron other than using the Ring.

Alo, ME3 is the last part of the trilogy, so heh, debatable.

YMMV, depending on how many DLCs you had for the earlier games and how you played them. For me all three games took about the same number of hours, so 70% is about right.

no, because the ring solution wasn't discovered when minas tirith was under attack. it has been known since the first movie (havn't read the books). Hell Isildur had a shot at killing sauron for good but he fell to the influence of the ring

[Kamfrenchie]

robertthebard wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

As for all the criticism about the Crucible plans happening to be on Mars, is it possible that the Protheans hid them there because they realized that the Reapers were sparing Earth and decided it would leave them within striking distance of one of the next cycle races? I would argue that it is. That calls for speculation, of course, but it's not necessarily true that the Crucible being on Mars was as contrived as some on this thread would have it seem.

It's also apparent that short of Point and Shoot, some people didn't really play the game, since there's a codex entry that indicates that the archive with the plans is a secondary dig site that has only recently been discovered.  Pardon this interruption of actual game lore, we now take you back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories.

even then i don't buy it. you find out there are artifacts uber valuable on Mars, that allow you to travel in space...most logical thing to do is to start digging all over the place given the benefits. And it still makes no sense the reapers would not have thoroughly searched Mars, given they knew about humankind. Or that they completely mised the plan several times. Or that the alliance had only a handful of marinesin there. and the timing is still convenient

 mean, if you found  a gold mine, you'd search the nearby locations aswell wuldn't you ?

[AlanC9]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...
no the ring ain't a DEM. It's not contrieved and doesnt appear out of owhere, in the last minute, unlike the reaper off crucible,

The Crucible appears a couple hours into ME3. Appearing at the 70% mark is not "the last minute." 

By that i meant that it appears at the moment all hope is lost and all the characters can expect to die very quickly since they have no plan at all and nothing was prepared for the coming of the reapers.

OK. So "last minute" in the sense of the last chance, not in the sense of the story being almost over. But if that's the case then Tolkien's One Ring is a DEM too, since there's no realistic plan to defeat Sauron other than using the Ring.

no, because the ring solution wasn't discovered when minas tirith was under attack. it has been known since the first movie (havn't read the books). Hell Isildur had a shot at killing sauron for good but he fell to the influence of the ring

But as you said yourself, the criterion is "it appears at the moment all hope is lost ." Well, that's where LOTR starts. Gandalf's quite clear about this at the Council of Elrond; without the ring there is no hope of victory.

So the key part of your definition is "and all the characters can expect to die very quickly "?

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:24 .

[robertthebard]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

As for all the criticism about the Crucible plans happening to be on Mars, is it possible that the Protheans hid them there because they realized that the Reapers were sparing Earth and decided it would leave them within striking distance of one of the next cycle races? I would argue that it is. That calls for speculation, of course, but it's not necessarily true that the Crucible being on Mars was as contrived as some on this thread would have it seem.

It's also apparent that short of Point and Shoot, some people didn't really play the game, since there's a codex entry that indicates that the archive with the plans is a secondary dig site that has only recently been discovered.  Pardon this interruption of actual game lore, we now take you back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories.

even then i don't buy it. you find out there are artifacts uber valuable on Mars, that allow you to travel in space...most logical thing to do is to start digging all over the place given the benefits. And it still makes no sense the reapers would not have thoroughly searched Mars, given they knew about humankind. Or that they completely mised the plan several times. Or that the alliance had only a handful of marinesin there. and the timing is still convenient

 mean, if you found  a gold mine, you'd search the nearby locations aswell wuldn't you ?

I think it depends on exactly what our technology was at the time they discovered the initial artifact.  They may have been working as hard and fast as they were able before they uncovered the second site.  It is not hard to imagine that it took a while, on a planet that isn't exactly hospitable to human life.  As to why the tech wasn't found by the Reapers in the first place, we sort of get an answer to that from Javik, they quit studying us when the Reapers attacked, and it's likely they abandoned any bases there, possibly destroying them to keep the Reapers from looking too close.  As to whether the Reapers knew about humanity or not, the world will never know, since we weren't advanced enough at the time to warrant harvesting.

[sistersafetypin]

Oransel wrote...

Adugan wrote...

You forgot about how the rest of the games are irrelevant.

Fixed

Now I'm going to go ahead and agree with the OP and this. At the end of the day ME:3 is a mediocre game with bright spots.