310 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You call a story about stopping machines from killing every one a story that's not generic?

There are 7 billion people on this planet, chances are your life is generic as well. In fact, since there aren't 7 billion games about stopping machines from killing everyone, I'd say your life is more generic than Mass Effect. yet you still live it. Do I sense hypocritism?

That would be my general arguement about this topic.

So you admit it fails.

No, I'm stating the op statement is biased and faulty.

[v TricKy v]

Ah so true. The music just brought me back.
To be honest I replayed ME1 not a long time ago for ME3 and I´m at a point where I´m thinking why I should even bother with ME3 anymore.
I find it much better to make my own ending after ME1(Maybe 2) than to watch the butchered ME3.

Modifié par v TricKy v, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[Eain]

darknoon5 wrote...

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I completely agree. ME1 is the most intelligent, mature game I've ever played.

At least the space ninja's wear armour...

Textbook example of a strawman here guys.

For the layman: you will notice how I never said anything about ME1 being the "most intelligent mature game I've ever played," only that it was an intelligent and mature setting and a throwback to 70's sci-fi. Benezia's rather ridiculous outfit falls, as far as that goes, in the same category as slave Leia in RotJ and the depiction of female characters from that age in general.

But, deciding he was going to disagree with me out of hand, darknoon 5 decided to warp what I was saying in order to allow himself a disingenuous reply.

I understand your argument. I'm not saying you said that, either. I'm simply saying ME1 being intelligent and mature is subjective. The post was obviously hyperbolic, but it's easy to just yell "strawman!" instead of acknowledging that ME1 wasn't always mature or intelligent, ever. Also, if you're arguing intelligent sci-fi, best not to compare to films such as star wars. Great films (4-6), but more "fi" then "sci," even compared to ME.

It's easy to yell strawman because your argument was a strawman. How can you expect me to read that post and think "oh this guy is just throwing strawmans around for the luls but in truth he really gets what I'm saying!"

Again, I'm not "comparing" ME as a whole to star wars either, so this is again an exaggeration of my words.

What I'm saying is that the setting does feel more mature in that it's less resemblant of your average power rangers episode than Mass Effect 3 is, and it does feel more intelligent in that the game in general is less in your face with action and explosions and derpy looking villains. It feels more intelligent in how the developers allow you the time to soak everything in and read the codex and enjoy the scenery. Compared to that absolutely inane Admiral's Council scene in ME3's intro, where everybody goes out of their way to be the largest idiot possible just so they can get to the part with the explosions, ME1 definitely feels more intelligent, yes.

Let me give you an immediate comparison.

EDIT: Jesus derp the links refuse to work in this post. I'll make a new one.

Modifié par Eain, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[Tigerman123]

ME 1 had the same hackneyed formula about ancient progenitors returning to wreak havoc that we'd seen a thousand times before

[Eain]

This conversation with Pressly

versus

This conversation with the Admirals: (copy paste, the links don't work for whatever reason).

Pretty much narrows now the whole point I'm trying to make here. Both are the first real sessions of dialogue in each game.

EDIT: What the hell does this forum not support posts with two different links in it or what?

Modifié par Eain, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:12 .

[dreman9999]

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I completely agree. ME1 is the most intelligent, mature game I've ever played.

At least the space ninja's wear armour...

Textbook example of a strawman here guys.

For the layman: you will notice how I never said anything about ME1 being the "most intelligent mature game I've ever played," only that it was an intelligent and mature setting and a throwback to 70's sci-fi. Benezia's rather ridiculous outfit falls, as far as that goes, in the same category as slave Leia in RotJ and the depiction of female characters from that age in general.

But, deciding he was going to disagree with me out of hand, darknoon 5 decided to warp what I was saying in order to allow himself a disingenuous reply.

I understand your argument. I'm not saying you said that, either. I'm simply saying ME1 being intelligent and mature is subjective. The post was obviously hyperbolic, but it's easy to just yell "strawman!" instead of acknowledging that ME1 wasn't always mature or intelligent, ever. Also, if you're arguing intelligent sci-fi, best not to compare to films such as star wars. Great films (4-6), but more "fi" then "sci," even compared to ME.

It's easy to yell strawman because your argument was a strawman. How can you expect me to read that post and think "oh this guy is just throwing strawmans around for the luls but in truth he really gets what I'm saying!"

Again, I'm not "comparing" ME as a whole to star wars either, so this is again an exaggeration of my words.

What I'm saying is that the setting does feel more mature in that it's less resemblant of your average power rangers episode than Mass Effect 3 is, and it does feel more intelligent in that the game in general is less in your face with action and explosions and derpy looking villains. It feels more intelligent in how the developers allow you the time to soak everything in and read the codex and enjoy the scenery. Compared to that absolutely inane Admiral's Council scene in ME3's intro, where everybody goes out of their way to be the largest idiot possible just so they can get to the part with the explosions, ME1 definitely feels more intelligent, yes.

Let me give you an immediate comparison.

This conversation with Pressly at the start of the game is full of intelligent dialogue and exposition.

This, conversation however, is not.

Here's your general problem. ME3 is not a power ranger eposide. No of the area's of the plot is never ever less mature then what in in ME1.
And if you using the "explosions" excuse, you need to take time to notice that this is a war story are can't be one without them. Add the council in that scene is acting just like how they were in ME1, what were you expecting from a bunch of panicing morons who don't have a clue to dealing with a warlike this?

[dreman9999]

Tigerman123 wrote...

ME 1 had the same hackneyed formula about ancient progenitors returning to wreak havoc that we'd seen a thousand times before

Thank you. I'm not the only one to say this.

[Naerivar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You call a story about stopping machines from killing every one a story that's not generic?

There are 7 billion people on this planet, chances are your life is generic as well. In fact, since there aren't 7 billion games about stopping machines from killing everyone, I'd say your life is more generic than Mass Effect. yet you still live it. Do I sense hypocritism?

That would be my general arguement about this topic.

So you admit it fails.

No, I'm stating the op statement is biased and faulty.

Did you even read what I posted? If you want to call the game generic, then you call your own life generic. Now, I'm fine with it if you do. but you can hardly complain that people like a generic game while you like your generic life. (assuming you do of course). Otherwise it'd would be rather hypocrital. That's fine of course, but don't think people will take you seriously then.

[Eain]

dreman9999 wrote...Here's your general problem. ME3 is not a power ranger eposide. No of the area's of the plot is never ever less mature then what in in ME1.
And if you using the "explosions" excuse, you need to take time to notice that this is a war story are can't be one without them. Add the council in that scene is acting just like how they were in ME1, what were you expecting from a bunch of panicing morons who don't have a clue to dealing with a warlike this?

I think ME3 gets far too close to power rangers for comfort. If you disagree, fine. I couldn't believe the amount of stupid I was witnessing when I first fought Kai Leng, or when I spoke to the Admirals in the intro. Dumbest stuff I've seen in fiction in years. If that wasn't dumb to you then great. We won't be able to relate.

[darknoon5]

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I completely agree. ME1 is the most intelligent, mature game I've ever played.

At least the space ninja's wear armour...

Textbook example of a strawman here guys.

For the layman: you will notice how I never said anything about ME1 being the "most intelligent mature game I've ever played," only that it was an intelligent and mature setting and a throwback to 70's sci-fi. Benezia's rather ridiculous outfit falls, as far as that goes, in the same category as slave Leia in RotJ and the depiction of female characters from that age in general.

But, deciding he was going to disagree with me out of hand, darknoon 5 decided to warp what I was saying in order to allow himself a disingenuous reply.

I understand your argument. I'm not saying you said that, either. I'm simply saying ME1 being intelligent and mature is subjective. The post was obviously hyperbolic, but it's easy to just yell "strawman!" instead of acknowledging that ME1 wasn't always mature or intelligent, ever. Also, if you're arguing intelligent sci-fi, best not to compare to films such as star wars. Great films (4-6), but more "fi" then "sci," even compared to ME.

It's easy to yell strawman because your argument was a strawman. How can you expect me to read that post and think "oh this guy is just throwing strawmans around for the luls but in truth he really gets what I'm saying!"

Again, I'm not "comparing" ME as a whole to star wars either, so this is again an exaggeration of my words.

What I'm saying is that the setting does feel more mature in that it's less resemblant of your average power rangers episode than Mass Effect 3 is, and it does feel more intelligent in that the game in general is less in your face with action and explosions and derpy looking villains. It feels more intelligent in how the developers allow you the time to soak everything in and read the codex and enjoy the scenery. Compared to that absolutely inane Admiral's Council scene in ME3's intro, where everybody goes out of their way to be the largest idiot possible just so they can get to the part with the explosions, ME1 definitely feels more intelligent, yes.

Let me give you an immediate comparison.

This conversation with Pressly at the start of the game is full of intelligent dialogue and exposition.

This, conversation however, is not.

My arguement was, if you have reading comprehension, that ME1 is not necesarilly mature or intelligent. What is the problem with that? I was not actually inferring you thought ME1 as the most intelligent piece of work ever-the post was clearly not serious, and was an exagerration. The fact you are unable to tell that is your fault, not mine.

Also, now you are twisting your argument. Funny, that. You said ME1 *is* mature and intelligent. Now you're saying it *feels more* mature and intelligent. It's also unfair to judge the whole games on their intro's, as I'll be the first to admit ME1 is superior in terms of intelligence in that aspect. I'm not even arguing that ME1 is less intelligent, just that it isn't as intelligent as nostalgia will have you believe-there are some rather poor plot points, like Shepard immediately believing in the Reapers after one vision, without any player input-reminiscent of people's complaints ME3 forces Shepard to have certain characteristics and views, hmm?

Plus, the things you argue make ME1 intelligent are present in ME3-the codex and scenery are all there in ME3, though whether you prefer the scenery in ME1 is entirely subjective. Me, I get bored of the endless retextured planets.

Finally, don't argue about maturity if you have to resort to unveiled insults, lol. At least be subtle...

[Tigerman123]

Eain wrote...

This conversation with Pressly

versus

This conversation with the Admirals:

Pretty much narrows now the whole point I'm trying to make here. Both are the first real sessions of dialogue in each game.

EDIT: What the hell does this forum not support posts with two different links in it or what?

Did you write out the bb code

[url][rerer/url]

Modifié par Tigerman123, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[Eain]

Tigerman123 wrote...

ME 1 had the same hackneyed formula about ancient progenitors returning to wreak havoc that we'd seen a thousand times before

And Wheel of Time has the same hackneyed plot where a young farmer's son in remote rural village turns out to be the superhero the world has been waiting for to guard them against the evil dark lord.

It's still a fun story. Things don't always have to be original, they just have to be done well. ME1 was done well. ME3 was not.

[darknoon5]

Eain wrote...

This conversation with Pressly

versus

This conversation with the Admirals: (copy paste, the links don't work for whatever reason).

Pretty much narrows now the whole point I'm trying to make here. Both are the first real sessions of dialogue in each game.

EDIT: What the hell does this forum not support posts with two different links in it or what?

So you're basing your whole argument off two conversations out of the hundreds in both games? If that's the case, I can say ME3 is more mature, because the character interactions with Wrex don't feature Shepard acting like a complete idiot.

Eain wrote...

Tigerman123 wrote...

ME 1 had
the same hackneyed formula about ancient progenitors returning to wreak
havoc that we'd seen a thousand times before

And Wheel of
Time has the same hackneyed plot where a young farmer's son in remote
rural village turns out to be the superhero the world has been waiting
for to guard them against the evil dark lord.

It's still a fun story. Things don't always have to be original, they just have to be done well. ME1 was done well. ME3 was not.

Subjective,
subjective, subjective. Maybe if I say the word 3 times, you'll get
that everything you just said is your opinon, with no arguments to back
it up, right?

Modifié par darknoon5, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[dreman9999]

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You call a story about stopping machines from killing every one a story that's not generic?

There are 7 billion people on this planet, chances are your life is generic as well. In fact, since there aren't 7 billion games about stopping machines from killing everyone, I'd say your life is more generic than Mass Effect. yet you still live it. Do I sense hypocritism?

That would be my general arguement about this topic.

So you admit it fails.

No, I'm stating the op statement is biased and faulty.

Did you even read what I posted? If you want to call the game generic, then you call your own life generic. Now, I'm fine with it if you do. but you can hardly complain that people like a generic game while you like your generic life. (assuming you do of course). Otherwise it'd would be rather hypocrital. That's fine of course, but don't think people will take you seriously then.

Your not getting what I'm saying. I'm just pointing out that ME1 is not a special as you think it is. IT does do anything new, just presents everything will. Compared to other 2 games, It's shorter, has less content about it's universe, and has less mature plot points in general.

[dreman9999]

Eain wrote...

Tigerman123 wrote...

ME 1 had the same hackneyed formula about ancient progenitors returning to wreak havoc that we'd seen a thousand times before

And Wheel of Time has the same hackneyed plot where a young farmer's son in remote rural village turns out to be the superhero the world has been waiting for to guard them against the evil dark lord.

It's still a fun story. Things don't always have to be original, they just have to be done well. ME1 was done well. ME3 was not.

Dune>>>>>>>>>>Wheel of time.
Also, ME3 was done will. It the end most people have a problem with. Or the fact they can't get how a morally ambigous terrorist group who unapologeticly done horrible things in the past can't turn out the way they did inME3 and get themselves indoctrinated.

[Eain]

darknoon5 wrote...

Subjective, subjective, subjective. Maybe if I say the word 3 times, you'll get that everything you just said is your opinon, with no arguments to back it up, right?

I like how you conclude this as though it's somehow a major revelation.

Because herpaderp I really thought we were having a discussion about objective facts like the impossibility of square circles and straight curves.

Also glanced over this gem:

So you're basing your
whole argument off two conversations out of the hundreds in both games?
If that's the case, I can say ME3 is more mature, because the character
interactions with Wrex don't feature Shepard acting like a complete
idiot.

Can you really just stop it with the strawmen already, rofl. I mean, really. Try to make a point where you DO NOT exaggerate everything the opposition is saying. Please? Just give it a try. It will help.

Modifié par Eain, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:24 .

[dreman9999]

Eain wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...Here's your general problem. ME3 is not a power ranger eposide. No of the area's of the plot is never ever less mature then what in in ME1.
And if you using the "explosions" excuse, you need to take time to notice that this is a war story are can't be one without them. Add the council in that scene is acting just like how they were in ME1, what were you expecting from a bunch of panicing morons who don't have a clue to dealing with a warlike this?

I think ME3 gets far too close to power rangers for comfort. If you disagree, fine. I couldn't believe the amount of stupid I was witnessing when I first fought Kai Leng, or when I spoke to the Admirals in the intro. Dumbest stuff I've seen in fiction in years. If that wasn't dumb to you then great. We won't be able to relate.

It's no where near like power ranger and you have yet to back that claim.  Add, the admeral were just a bunch of panicing desk jockes. What do you expect? Also, clearly the space ninja tack tactic works.

[Eain]

Everything worth backing has been backed in the OP. The rest is just opinion. Your friend darknoon5 quite adequately pointed out that we were having a subjective discussion.

[Naerivar]

dreman9999 wrote...
Your not getting what I'm saying. I'm just pointing out that ME1 is not a special as you think it is. IT does do anything new, just presents everything will. Compared to other 2 games, It's shorter, has less content about it's universe, and has less mature plot points in general.

To clarify it for you, for me it's special. Because it's a first for me in a lot of things. I never really played any game with robots from outser space trying to exterminate all live.

I was merely pointing out that you can complain about ME not being special. But your life isn't either. In fact, if we gather all things that aren't as special as people think it is, we'll have a ****load of things.

[dreman9999]

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Subjective, subjective, subjective. Maybe if I say the word 3 times, you'll get that everything you just said is your opinon, with no arguments to back it up, right?

I like how you conclude this as though it's somehow a major revelation.

Because herpaderp I really thought we were having a discussion about objective facts like the impossibility of square circles and straight curves.

Also glanced over this gem:

So you're basing your
whole argument off two conversations out of the hundreds in both games?
If that's the case, I can say ME3 is more mature, because the character
interactions with Wrex don't feature Shepard acting like a complete
idiot.

Can you really just stop it with the strawmen already, rofl. I mean, really. Try to make a point where you DO NOT exaggerate everything the opposition is saying. Please? Just give it a try. It will help.

Your 2 conversation your using is you exaggerate what you think is wrong. Which is what he is saying.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:28 .

[Eain]

They don't exaggerate anything. I linked the first proper conversation held in each game and showed the difference, and how I think they reflect the general trend of their respective games. One is smart, intelligent, calm, expository. The other is full of dumb lines and inane one-liners. They symbolise something, they are not my "entire argument". Indeed if the intro conversation was the only dumb conversation in the entire third game I wouldn't be here making this thread now would I?

[dreman9999]

Naerivar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Your not getting what I'm saying. I'm just pointing out that ME1 is not a special as you think it is. IT does do anything new, just presents everything will. Compared to other 2 games, It's shorter, has less content about it's universe, and has less mature plot points in general.

To clarify it for you, for me it's special. Because it's a first for me in a lot of things. I never really played any game with robots from outser space trying to exterminate all live.

I was merely pointing out that you can complain about ME not being special. But your life isn't either. In fact, if we gather all things that aren't as special as people think it is, we'll have a ****load of things.

.....Ok . Your point is baseless. I have to have a fast and exciting life to comlint about something that is generic?
Can't that be said for your complain on ME3?

[darknoon5]

Eain wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Subjective, subjective, subjective. Maybe if I say the word 3 times, you'll get that everything you just said is your opinon, with no arguments to back it up, right?

I like how you conclude this as though it's somehow a major revelation.

Because herpaderp I really thought we were having a discussion about objective facts like the impossibility of square circles and straight curves.

Also glanced over this gem:

So you're basing your
whole argument off two conversations out of the hundreds in both games?
If that's the case, I can say ME3 is more mature, because the character
interactions with Wrex don't feature Shepard acting like a complete
idiot.

Can you really just stop it with the strawmen already, rofl. I mean, really. Try to make a point where you DO NOT exaggerate everything the opposition is saying. Please? Just give it a try. It will help.

Of course it isn't objective...which is why you need to provide reasoning behind your opinons. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Your point doesn't need exaggerating. Maybe give another reason for why ME1 is more mature? Your first post is
just why ME3 should be disowned and isn't a proper sequel. The only real reasoning or argument I've seen you use directly relating to events in both games so far is the intro of both, and the discussion with Pressly, which you've brought up twice. It's not a strawman if you're actually saying what I'm inferring.  Let's see your arguments so far

Eain wrote...
When I play Mass Effect 3 I barely even feel like I'm playing a game set
in the same universe. Play ME1's opening act and ME3's opening act back
to back and see the difference.

Eain wrote...
This conversation with Pressly at the start of the game is full of intelligent dialogue and exposition.

This, conversation however, is not.

Eain wrote...

This conversation with Pressly

versus

This
conversation with the Admirals:

(copy paste, the links don't work for whatever reason).

Pretty much narrows now the whole point I'm trying to make here. Both are the first real sessions of dialogue in each game.

EDIT: What the hell does this forum not support posts with two different links in it or what?

[dreman9999]

Eain wrote...

They don't exaggerate anything. I linked the first proper conversation held in each game and showed the difference, and how I think they reflect the general trend of their respective games. One is smart, intelligent, calm, expository. The other is full of dumb lines and inane one-liners. They symbolise something, they are not my "entire argument". Indeed if the intro conversation was the only dumb conversation in the entire third game I wouldn't be here making this thread now would I?

The tuchanka missions are smart, intelligent, calm, expository . The rennock missions are smart, intelligent, calm, expository . ME3 Plot has more darker tone, and moral conflict then ME1 has. The concepts of ME1 are in ME3. Hell, ME1 has it's fill of dumblines and inane one-liners. I mean mE1 has Shepard asking liara if asari mate with other asari.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[Roamingmachine]

The real reason why the series took a nose dive after ME1 and made pavement pizza in ME3? Look who is credited as the lead writer in each game.The reason why ME1 actually holds together is because it actually had a fairly talented writer in charge of the overall plot.Mac'n'Cheese are many things but talented writers they are not.

And to the guy who used Benezia as an example of immaturity in ME1: One instance of cleavage in the entire game.ONE. Compare to the strippers of 2&3 that are on your squad for some reason.