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[Red Panda]

Ignis Mors wrote...

 Mass Effect 2 is no longer my favorite game ever. Now, I prefer Super Scribblenauts, because YOU CAN SUMMON A PENGUIN WEARING A TOP HAT AND MONOCLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KyreneZA]

Jadebaby wrote...

I'm pretty sure you've explained this to me before, but what is it again?

That means the answer is indeed 'yes'. You should definitely post your theory here lol.

This is an edited (and more structured) re-post from the one in the WNT thread:

The endings all finally clicked for me after seeing an image in one of the IT related threads: of the same oily shadows inside the "Destroy" explosion (after Shepard shoots the tube) as the explosions created by Harbinger's beam attack. Regardless of how much of everything in "Priority: Earth" transpires in reality, I am now convinced that indoctrination is being attempted on Shepard and that all choices lead to the destruction of Shepard's cycle.

• Choosing "Destroy" is a Catalyst-offered choice, but is against the Reaper agenda and makes Harbinger (who either hasn't flown off as observed during the "beam run" or has returned) fire on Shepard again.
  • Under low EMS conditions Shepard dies in the rubble (the rubble as seen in the "breath scene"), becoming a martyr. This galvanizes the galaxy: enough that the Reapers incur more losses in destroyers and capital ships than any cycle before. This allows for future cycles to eventually beat them through attrition (with the help of Liara's beacons), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.
  • Under high EMS conditions Shepard survives and wakes up in the rubble (exactly as seen in the "breath scene"). He either dies soon after, becoming a martyr and things play out as already described above or he gets rescued. He continues to lead the galaxy: enough that the Reapers incur even more losses in destroyers and capital ships than any cycle before. This allows for future cycles to eventually beat them more easily through attrition (with the help of Liara's beacons), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.
• Choosing "Control," the indoctrination attempt succeeds and Shepard becomes either a Reaper agent or a husk. The Reapers probably lose no more in destroyers and capital ships than they had up to that point. They build new destroyers from the other races, but (like the Prothean cycle before) there is no capital ship built and humans become the new Collectors. The cycles more than likely continue for longer than "Destroy" or "Refuse" as most of Liara's beacons are found and destroyed because indoctrinated Shepard reveals their existence. Some future cycle is prepared enough that the Reapers incur more losses in destroyers and capital ships than any cycle before. This allows for future cycles after that to eventually beat them through attrition (without the help of Liara's beacons, but through some fore-warning system of their own), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.
• Choosing "Synthesis," Shepard ascends the literal beam in London to become the Reaper mind of the next capital ship, like the Reapers had wanted to achieve even before the Lazarus Project. The Reapers probably lose no more in destroyers and capital ships than they had up to that point. They build new destroyers from the other races along with the human-Reaper capital ship. The cycles more than likely continue for longer than "Destroy" or "Refuse" as most of Liara's beacons are found and destroyed because Reaper-Shepard reveals their existence. Some future cycle is prepared enough that things play out as with the "Control" ending resulting in the same eventual Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.
• Choosing "Refuse" is the only non-Catalyst-offered choice, but because Shepard sees through the indoctrination attempt it makes Harbinger (who either hasn't flown off as observed during the "beam run" or has returned) fire on Shepard again. Things occur in any of the ways described in the "Destroy" endings above (depending on EMS), but off-screen, as showing a "breath scene" for instance would be tipping BioWare's hand too much. Future cycles eventually beat the Reapers through attrition (with the help of Liara's beacons), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.

Yeah it's pessimistic (or "bitter-sweet" if you prefer), but allows for both indoctrination in some form (even of the player) to be occurring, and for the RGBr decision choices to have meaning and lead into ME4. Shepard's cycle is always dead before ME4 starts, allowing for a wide open scope and canvas if ME4 is to be a sequel.

[Jadebaby]

It's not so much pessimistic as it is nihilistic.. I have thought about Destroy being an indoctrination attempt also, which got me a lot of flak from the IT crowd lol. But it could be, it's all down to interpretation after all. If I could add to that theory I would make room for an event where as Harbinger goes to fire on Shepard in refuse, the fleets bombarred Harbinger in an effort to stop him, this gives Shepard enough time to get out of there and then win!

[BirdsallSa]

Jadebaby wrote...

It's not so much pessimistic as it is nihilistic.. I have thought about Destroy being an indoctrination attempt also, which got me a lot of flak from the IT crowd lol. But it could be, it's all down to interpretation after all. If I could add to that theory I would make room for an event where as Harbinger goes to fire on Shepard in refuse, the fleets bombarred Harbinger in an effort to stop him, this gives Shepard enough time to get out of there and then win!

How exactly is Shepard going to "win"? He's outgunned and outmanned. Synthesis is our only hope for the preservation of humanity. The Intelligence said this himself.

[Jadebaby]

"Remember Commander, even in the darkest hours, there's always a way out."

Synthesis doesn't preserve humanity, it destroys it. By choosing Synthesis you are no longer human, you are something else entirely.

[BirdsallSa]

Jadebaby wrote...

"Remember Commander, even in the darkest hours, there's always a way out."

Synthesis doesn't preserve humanity, it destroys it. By choosing Synthesis you are no longer human, you are something else entirely.

They are no longer human, because they have ascended. The Intelligence isn't only giving us the chance to preserve our species but to improve it! And that's just an old folk tale Eve is telling. I'll take the cold hard factual science of Synthesis any day over that.

[Ignis Mors]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

"Remember Commander, even in the darkest hours, there's always a way out."

Synthesis doesn't preserve humanity, it destroys it. By choosing Synthesis you are no longer human, you are something else entirely.

They are no longer human, because they have ascended. The Intelligence isn't only giving us the chance to preserve our species but to improve it! And that's just an old folk tale Eve is telling. I'll take the cold hard factual science of Synthesis any day over that.

What cold factual science? How does jumping into a beam of energy enable the rewrite of the DNA of everything in the galaxy? How does it give robots organic parts? How does it give all organics synthetic implants? Synthesis is not science, but Space Magic.

[BirdsallSa]

Ignis Mors wrote...

BirdsallSa wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

"Remember Commander, even in the darkest hours, there's always a way out."

Synthesis doesn't preserve humanity, it destroys it. By choosing Synthesis you are no longer human, you are something else entirely.

They are no longer human, because they have ascended. The Intelligence isn't only giving us the chance to preserve our species but to improve it! And that's just an old folk tale Eve is telling. I'll take the cold hard factual science of Synthesis any day over that.

What cold factual science? How does jumping into a beam of energy enable the rewrite of the DNA of everything in the galaxy? How does it give robots organic parts? How does it give all organics synthetic implants? Synthesis is not science, but Space Magic.

Shepard is adding his energy to the Crucible to make organics fully compatible with tech and his corporeal form is being transmitted to the synthetics, giving them understanding of organics. It's not complicated. But, if you'd rather listen to some krogan talk about the good ol' days, than an Ancient Intelligence who's seen it all, be my guess.

[Ignis Mors]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Ignis Mors wrote...

BirdsallSa wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

"Remember Commander, even in the darkest hours, there's always a way out."

Synthesis doesn't preserve humanity, it destroys it. By choosing Synthesis you are no longer human, you are something else entirely.

They are no longer human, because they have ascended. The Intelligence isn't only giving us the chance to preserve our species but to improve it! And that's just an old folk tale Eve is telling. I'll take the cold hard factual science of Synthesis any day over that.

What cold factual science? How does jumping into a beam of energy enable the rewrite of the DNA of everything in the galaxy? How does it give robots organic parts? How does it give all organics synthetic implants? Synthesis is not science, but Space Magic.

Shepard is adding his energy to the Crucible to make organics fully compatible with tech and his corporeal form is being transmitted to the synthetics, giving them understanding of organics. It's not complicated. But, if you'd rather listen to some krogan talk about the good ol' days, than an Ancient Intelligence who's seen it all, be my guess.

But how does Shepard's energy make organics fully compatible with tech? And, the Catalyst is not intelligent. How does turning us into orange goo preserve us? the aliens in the reapersa re not 'preserved' but destroyed because they are no longer what they were before they were reaperized. If you eat something, then keep the turd of it that comes later, you are not preserving it.

[Jadebaby]

let's not get into the semantics of Synthesis, as it is somewhat off-topic to this thread.

@Birds, have you even read the OP?

[BirdsallSa]

Jadebaby wrote...

let's not get into the semantics of Synthesis, as it is somewhat off-topic to this thread.

@Birds, have you even read the OP?

I must admit I have not, though I have heard of this theory. Wasn't Bioware supposed to have added bits and pieces with every dlc according to this theory? Then the real ending would be revealed?

[Jadebaby]

It's all there if you have the time to read it..

It's a fascinating read, and I would appreciate it

[KyreneZA]

Jadebaby wrote...

It's not so much pessimistic as it is nihilistic.

I've never read Nietzsche, so what's the difference?

I have thought about Destroy being an indoctrination attempt also, which got me a lot of flak from the IT crowd lol. But it could be, it's all down to interpretation after all.

Yeah, I hear you. While I like the IT itself, most of the current 'custodians' of the theory are a bit militant or don't properly understand the theory they're supporting so ardently. Any differing opinion is simply branded as wrong/idiotic/blind and probably cause for how badly they are viewed/treated.

If I could add to that theory I would make room for an event where as Harbinger goes to fire on Shepard in refuse, the fleets bombarred Harbinger in an effort to stop him, this gives Shepard enough time to get out of there and then win!

While I don't agree that Shepard's cycle can outright win the war, as events in "Refuse" happen mostly off-screen, that certainly is a possibility.

***

What would you personally like this last SP DLC (last piece of the "puzzle") to be?

I would be perfectly fine if that Casino/strip is where Shepard goes to meet everyone after they all died heroically/lived to have (blue?) babies. If it's just another pre-ending DLC (that does not/little to affect the outcome of the ending), it would have to be a lot better than Omega for me to want to purchase it.

Modifié par Kyrene, 05 février 2013 - 08:30 .

[Jadebaby]

Wow, you know that's actually a REALLY good angle. A lot of people have said that it wont be post ending in destroy because it would only be limited to the destroy crowd.. But if they add it as a sort of afterlife where Shepard is meeting everyone as they pass.. That could allow people who choose Synthesis to see it also... Although control Sheps are still screwed, I think... Oh wait, but wouldn't Synthesis people become immortal or something anyway? So little details about those endings....

As for the IT crowd, some of them are really nice, and I'm really close with more than a few, but yea. Others are just jerks. But I kind of do agree with them that the IT in itself, can only be applied to Destroy, because that's what it is... It's like saying that Puzzle Theory can work through Destroy or even Synthesis, when no it kind of can't... That would be a different theory entirely... I once had this discussion wth an ITer so I conceeded and started calling it "Indoctrination in the ending theory" instead of just "IT"... The conversation didn't last much longer after that..

As for the difference between pessimism and nihilism, it isn't so much that they are different, just an alternate perception of your theory... Every ending essentially ends with the main character's death. Not just Shepard but all of them. I suppose it could be considered both pessimistic and nihilistic but imho, nihilism is one step below pessimism.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 05 février 2013 - 09:12 .

[jojon2se]

Nah, IT works perfectly well with Refuse and with Destroy possibly as another gateway to indoctrination, as far as I am concerned -- it's just that some few ITists have become deeply entrenched and paranoid, from being constantly under fire - probably not noticing themselves, that they have "become their enemy".

[Jadebaby]

You can't change a theory to fit your perceptions, for that you have to make another.

[CR121691]

So Priestley is playing the new dlc right now. Damn I am so eager to know where this one is taking us....

[Jaison1986]

Ssshhh, no IT talk. Chris is lurking in the darksness as we speak. Unfortunately it's best to put IT to rest. Bioware made the Leviathan DLC to kill it off for good, wich is an pity, I was actually a huge fan of it when it first came into light. I don't have much faith for an PT anymore. At best I expect an post mission were the squadies go to the citadel to find out Shepard's fate. But I won't put my hopes up. Isn't it ironic? Bioware knows that making any DLC that is ending related would sell millions, yet they refuse to make it. Isn't that counter productive in an business point of view?

[CR121691]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Ssshhh, no IT talk. Chris is lurking in the darksness as we speak. Unfortunately it's best to put IT to rest. Bioware made the Leviathan DLC to kill it off for good, wich is an pity, I was actually a huge fan of it when it first came into light. I don't have much faith for an PT anymore. At best I expect an post mission were the squadies go to the citadel to find out Shepard's fate. But I won't put my hopes up. Isn't it ironic? Bioware knows that making any DLC that is ending related would sell millions, yet they refuse to make it. Isn't that counter productive in an business point of view?

It can be very counter productive yes. But on the other hand if they would make a ''better'' ending it also could made them look weak in bussines perspective.

We have to wait what this will bring. I hoped on a PT type of thing but I think al those theories won't come out. BioWare is doing it in his own way and I can't really judge them on that.

[KyreneZA]

jojon2se wrote...

Nah, IT works perfectly well with Refuse and with Destroy possibly as another gateway to indoctrination, as far as I am concerned -- it's just that some few ITists have become deeply entrenched and paranoid, from being constantly under fire - probably not noticing themselves, that they have "become their enemy".

Exactly this. "Refuse" is not always Shepard doing nothing/not waking up/dying during an indoctrination attempt. "Destroy" is not always not an indoctrination choice/a way to stay alive/break an indoctrination attempt.

The "constantly under fire" thing has made a lot of ITists want... no desperately need an IT DLC so that they are the ones vindicated. IT's not about who's right or wrong, it's about what proves an indoctrination attempt is in the happening during parts (and certainly the end) of ME3.

If you wish to not acknowledge that your Shepard is being indoctrinated (for whatever reason), and see the endings in a literal sense, that is also not wrong or right.

That's probably the only thing I really like about the EC: the ability to "Refuse." It can be both a literal disagreement with the Catalyst/Harbinger/Intelligence or Shepard cottoning on and rejecting an indoctrination attempt. The fact that you only see Liara's holograms is probably the best ending there is as it is that ambiguous.

[KyreneZA]

Jadebaby wrote...

Wow, you know that's actually a REALLY good angle. A lot of people have said that it wont be post ending in destroy because it would only be limited to the destroy crowd.. But if they add it as a sort of afterlife where Shepard is meeting everyone as they pass.. That could allow people who choose Synthesis to see it also... Although control Sheps are still screwed, I think... Oh wait, but wouldn't Synthesis people become immortal or something anyway? So little details about those endings....

A lot of people see "Control" as a copy being made of Shepard's soul (for lack of a better word) as an AI, while the human Shepard died. Even "Control" can have an afterlife at Silver Sands for Shepard.

But I'm sure that's not what we'll be getting. It was merely my wish for a last DLC. No use in trying to make sense/argue the semantics of wishful thinking.

[Jadebaby]

Some good speculation in these last few posts...

But more importantly.. Priestly is playing the NEW DLC!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? =0

Damn, it must be pretty close to being released... I'll give it a month maximum.

[CR121691]

Jadebaby wrote...

Some good speculation in these last few posts...

But more importantly.. Priestly is playing the NEW DLC!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? =0

Damn, it must be pretty close to being released... I'll give it a month maximum.

He tweeted yesterday (Europe timezone) that he received the build of the upcoming SP dlc and that he will play it tomorrow (today).

It is close!

[Jaison1986]

I at least expect an teaser this week or on the another. That way we can at least have an idea of what is comming.

[CR121691]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I at least expect an teaser this week or on the another. That way we can at least have an idea of what is comming.

Well he did tell us that half February we can expect more news about the DLC so hopes up for news in the next week!