2749 réponses à ce sujet

[AdrynBliss]

Without a weapon that hit every last reaper at the same time everywhere conventional victory is physically impossible. As soon as things start to look like the reapers might lose, which as computer intelligences they'll be able to predict before it happens, all that needs to be done is just one of them heading off into space in a random direction, several thousand years go by, even 10s of thousands of years, it comes across a planet of primitives, converts them, infiltrates the civilizations of that cycles, slowly indoctrinates and so on and so forth and on it goes.

I like to believe the catalyst being a 'catalyst' had nothing to do with rbg beams but concept of the machine was the catalyst in making all the races work together and THAT is the real weapon that should finally defeat the reapers but unfortunately as with the example i wrote above there's just to many logic hole in a conventional victory for it to actually work. If bioware did it it would be ripped to shreds by nerds in seconds just like the original endings were.

[Mcfly616]

I agree with a lot of your points AdrynBliss.

I feel that a conventional victory would have essentially diminished what made the Reapers what they were. They were an unstoppable force. Defeating them with a bunch of Thannix cannons would have made them appear inept and weak.


Funny thing is, throughout the entire trilogy the question of "how are we going to stop the Reapers?", has always been there. Because it has always been known that conventional victory would not be an option. Hell, in ME2 EDI even dismissed Thannix Cannons as a viable option against them.

[Jadebaby]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

It was, but she (forgive me, I'm just assuming here) is also very correct in what she says.

If it weren't for the wretched endings of Mass Effect 3, I don't think I would have/would post on here as much as I do; if at all, honestly. I signed up before the game came out, but I don't think I would have taken to these forums like I did if the endings actually satisfied me. Hell, I'd probably be playing the game.

Blessing in disguise, I say, even if I hate it. It's a great trade off.

lol I made the same mistake, no.. Banshee is a bloke.

I agree with what you said, but I would have still taken it to the forum to give my feedback of the game. I loved ME and would want to support them if they had honoured what ME meant.

But yes, I would have defs spent more time playing the game than I have been on BSN talking about it!

ghost9191 wrote...

hoping to get more then 2 more dlcs though. and maybe at least have the omega dlc touch on the human reaper , oh and give us some more kick a*s war assets. Just make me believe in this even more

maybe find something that can tip the balance even more.

as for the citadel part. if it is its own dlc. maybe invistage there, as said before possibly something to do with the keepers. or it could just be where you meet up with aria

Yea, I'm thinking it might have something to do with the Catalyst. Maybe even greater foreshadowing than Leviathan...

Quick thought. If anyone here has played Fallout New Vegas dlc they'll know what I'm getting at.

Leviathan sets the stage, Citadel dlc explores the stage, future dlc makes the stage relevant to overarching plot. Leaving Omega dlc as the "Honest Hearts" of ME3.

??

Also, another reason to believe something is yet to come...

Shepard: "Leviathans are apart of this war now.. Whether you like it or not."
Child: "Good, I welcome their involvement."

Nothing.

Additional unresolved plot detected.

[Jadebaby]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I agree with a lot of your points AdrynBliss.

I feel that a conventional victory would have essentially diminished what made the Reapers what they were. They were an unstoppable force. Defeating them with a bunch of Thannix cannons would have made them appear inept and weak.


Funny thing is, throughout the entire trilogy the question of "how are we going to stop the Reapers?", has always been there. Because it has always been known that conventional victory would not be an option. Hell, in ME2 EDI even dismissed Thannix Cannons as a viable option against them.

There is no reason to suggest BioWare can't implement other technologies in the dlc's to make it possible. They already did it with the Leviathans... So it wouldn't be a first. And I don't mean something like "oh now we have thannixX5 implants that allow us to punch the Reaper out." I mean each dlc adds more subtle extra aid like Leviathans did, accumulating in a successful win.

Bottom line is, anything is possible because it all comes down to how they write it. Reapers are not real creatures. And frankly, the Reapers have already been diminished in my eyes. One Cain took out the Thannix Canon on Earth, and while it wasn't a proper Reaper, it sure looked like it was made from the same material. Oh yea, and don't forget the three or four missiles that took out the Reaper destroyer at the end there too.

Btw, one Reaper cannot move to some isolated system (watch out Yahg) and repopulate because, as proven in the endings, the Reapers need the Catalyst to function. So...

Take him out.
?
Profit.

[AdrynBliss]

Jade8aby88 wrote...



Btw, one Reaper cannot move to some isolated system (watch out Yahg) and repopulate because, as proven in the endings, the Reapers need the Catalyst to function. So...

Take him out.
?
Profit.

heh never thought of that. If the reapers are being controled from the heart of the citadel then why not just blow up the citadel. Unless of course that doesn't mean they just switch off, it might leave them autonomous which could be even worse.

[Mcfly616]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I agree with a lot of your points AdrynBliss.

I feel that a conventional victory would have essentially diminished what made the Reapers what they were. They were an unstoppable force. Defeating them with a bunch of Thannix cannons would have made them appear inept and weak.


Funny thing is, throughout the entire trilogy the question of "how are we going to stop the Reapers?", has always been there. Because it has always been known that conventional victory would not be an option. Hell, in ME2 EDI even dismissed Thannix Cannons as a viable option against them.

There is no reason to suggest BioWare can't implement other technologies in the dlc's to make it possible. They already did it with the Leviathans... So it wouldn't be a first. And I don't mean something like "oh now we have thannixX5 implants that allow us to punch the Reaper out." I mean each dlc adds more subtle extra aid like Leviathans did, accumulating in a successful win.

Bottom line is, anything is possible because it all comes down to how they write it. Reapers are not real creatures. And frankly, the Reapers have already been diminished in my eyes. One Cain took out the Thannix Canon on Earth, and while it wasn't a proper Reaper, it sure looked like it was made from the same material. Oh yea, and don't forget the three or four missiles that took out the Reaper destroyer at the end there too.

Btw, one Reaper cannot move to some isolated system (watch out Yahg) and repopulate because, as proven in the endings, the Reapers need the Catalyst to function. So...

Take him out.
?
Profit.

as I said, if they had written it in for a conventional victory, it would diminish the overwhelming threat of the Reapers. I agree, anything is possible because the writers can write whatever they want. However, they've made it abundantly clear since the very first game that conventional victory was not going to be a good possibility. I'd rather they not go back on that whole mentality they've been preaching for so long.

As you said. That cannon you take out with the Cain,regardless of whether its a Reaper weapon, its not a Reaper Capital Ship. And that Reaper destroyer that you kill on Rannoch? Well he just took an entire Armada's load to the face. Not surprising that a whole Armada can take out a single Reaper, considering we did it to Sovereign way back when. Simply put, whether you unite everyone or not, there are not enough people or ships in the galaxy that can possibly defeat the overall fleet of the Reaper forces.

And the Leviathans? I'm sure they took out their fair share of Reapers. But in a conventional battle its likely they would be permanently whiped from the galaxy. Why do you think they were hiding for a billion years in the first place? There is not enough of them to resist the Reapers.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 02 novembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Jadebaby]

Mcfly616 wrote...

as I said, if they had written it in for a conventional victory, it would diminish the overwhelming threat of the Reapers. I agree, anything is possible because the writers can write whatever they want. However, they've made it abundantly clear since the very first game that conventional victory was not going to be a good possibility. I'd rather they not go back on that whole mentality they've been preaching for so long.

We were also told it was impossible to control the Reapers. And Mass Effect also taught us the value of all life, whether it be synthetic or organic. And that to truly move forward in this galaxy, we need to achieve a unity through diversity. Synthesis craps on that too.

As you said. That cannon you take out with the Cain,regardless of whether its a Reaper weapon, its not a Reaper Capital Ship. And that Reaper destroyer that you kill on Rannoch? Well he just took an entire Armada's load to the face. Not surprising that a whole Armada can take out a single Reaper, considering we did it to Sovereign way back when.

 
What about the Rannoch Reaper? I wasn't talking about that one. I wasn't talking about the Reaper guarding the beam.

But to clarify, the Rannoch Reaper didn't take a "load to the face", it was pummelled from orbit, therefore the strikes landed on top of it, hence why it took so long to kill it... If only they had of known a couple of missiles to the eye socket could completely obliterate a Reaper hey?

Simply put, whether you unite everyone or not, there are not enough people or ships in the galaxy that can possibly defeat the overall fleet of the Reaper forces.

And the Leviathans? I'm sure they took out their fair share of Reapers. But in a conventional battle its likely they would be permanently whiped from the galaxy. Why do you think they were hiding for a billion years in the first place? There is not enough of them to resist the Reapers.

Not without help no. But they seemed pretty sure of themselves when they realized they had help and joined the battle with Shepard., no?

[Mcfly616]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

as I said, if they had written it in for a conventional victory, it would diminish the overwhelming threat of the Reapers. I agree, anything is possible because the writers can write whatever they want. However, they've made it abundantly clear since the very first game that conventional victory was not going to be a good possibility. I'd rather they not go back on that whole mentality they've been preaching for so long.

We were also told it was impossible to control the Reapers. And Mass Effect also taught us the value of all life, whether it be synthetic or organic. And that to truly move forward in this galaxy, we need to achieve a unity through diversity. Synthesis craps on that too.

As you said. That cannon you take out with the Cain,regardless of whether its a Reaper weapon, its not a Reaper Capital Ship. And that Reaper destroyer that you kill on Rannoch? Well he just took an entire Armada's load to the face. Not surprising that a whole Armada can take out a single Reaper, considering we did it to Sovereign way back when.

 
What about the Rannoch Reaper? I wasn't talking about that one. I wasn't talking about the Reaper guarding the beam.

But to clarify, the Rannoch Reaper didn't take a "load to the face", it was pummelled from orbit, therefore the strikes landed on top of it, hence why it took so long to kill it... If only they had of known a couple of missiles to the eye socket could completely obliterate a Reaper hey?

Simply put, whether you unite everyone or not, there are not enough people or ships in the galaxy that can possibly defeat the overall fleet of the Reaper forces.

And the Leviathans? I'm sure they took out their fair share of Reapers. But in a conventional battle its likely they would be permanently whiped from the galaxy. Why do you think they were hiding for a billion years in the first place? There is not enough of them to resist the Reapers.

Not without help no. But they seemed pretty sure of themselves when they realized they had help and joined the battle with Shepard., no?

sorry about the Reaper vas Rannoch misunderstanding. But it definitely took a load to the face from an entire fleet. Regardless of whether the shots came from orbit, your assertations are merely speculative.

The Reaper you shoot in the eyeball before the beam? Well, its a Destroyer class Reaper for one. Second of all Shepard had to time the shot perfectly. Ok....so you want us to just line up in front of the entire Reaper armada and take turns aiming for their eyeballs? Good luck. I'm guessing we'd be decimated before we hit even a handful of bullseyes.

On another note, I'm not sure a shot to the eye would hurt a Capital ship. Sovereign wasnt defeated until his shields were brought done. And then it took the entire fleet, who by the way wasn't firing from orbit this time.....they were up close and personal with Sovereign.

Sorry, but if you think that it is somehow possible to take turns disabling each and every Reapers shields, and then direct the entire armada's fire on one after the other.....that's just a huuuuge stretch. Hell, you'd be whiped out just doing that. Even if you succeeded taking all their shields down, you're numbers would be dwindling and you'd still have to concentrate all fire on each individual Capital Ship at a time. Not gonna happen.

[Mcfly616]

Don't want to keep creating chain posts....so continuing my response.

So what if we were told Control was not possible?.....think about who's been saying its not possible. Who cares if they've been preaching Value of life.....the endings are supposed to make you question your beliefs, weigh the pros and cons, steel yourself....and decide a new beginning for the galaxy. Only Shepard can give them an actual future. Only Shepard can control the Reapers. Only Shepard can create True Synthesis. Shepard is an anamoly. The Reapers, the Catalyst and the Leviathans all acknowledge it.

You've never read a story, or watched a movie where at the end the protagonist comes to the realization that everything isnt as it has always seemed? Hmmm, well it happens quite often.

Being told that you have to become the central consciousness of the entities you've been fighting, in order to stop them....well, that's a startling revelation that harkens back to dark sci fi stories of the past.

Synthesis has never been achieved. Shepard is the first time its possible. It's essentially a leap into the unknown, and also is a throwback to some or the more trippy existential classic sci fi endings (Isaac Asimov).

Destroy is the choice everybody has been assuming would be the one way to defeat the Reapers. It also has an unforeseen catch 22. It's a weighted choice that makes perfect sense under the circumstances.

If you don't like them, that's completely fine. But that doesn't mean they're not appropriate for Mass Effect. Mass Effect was never a full fledged Militarized Action Story. It's roots have always been Sci Fi, and its conclusion reflects that. ME3 provides a resolution that its predecessors could not give. Why? Well, because while they gave satisfying conclusions they were obviously not in a position to resolve the overall story arch because they had to lead into their respective sequals. They were just trumpeting up the fact the the battle of all time is right around the corner. Some people can't except that all things come to an end. ME3 added a resolution when the first two games couldn't. ME3 concludes the battle of all time.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 02 novembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Jadebaby]

Synthesis =/= Scifi.

There's no 'h' in wiped. Sorry about the grammer policing, but I can't tell if you mean whipped or wiped lol.

That's how you see them and it's perfectly fine. I see them as Control = Tyranny. Synthesis = violation of individual rights and freedom. Destroy = Genocide.

edit:

Mcfly said...
But it definitely took a load to the face from an entire fleet. Regardless of whether the shots came from orbit, your assertations are merely speculative.

What do you mean speculative? We literally watch the Reaper get bombarded and the shots landed on top of it. At best you could argue they are landing on it's head. They did not bombard it's "face" until it was lying on the ground, and that only happens if you choose the paragon option through dialog.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 02 novembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[Baihu1983]

No chance, More chance of EA/Bioware releasing a Trilogy pack and not including........ all........... the..... DLC.... mmmmmmmmm

Modifié par Baihu1983, 02 novembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[ghost9191]

Baihu1983 wrote...

No chance, More chance of EA/Bioware releasing a Trilogy pack and not including........ all........... the..... DLC.... mmmmmmmmm

meh bioware wouldn't do that, they would at least include the weapon packs

[ld1449]

AdrynBliss wrote...

Without a weapon that hit every last reaper at the same time everywhere conventional victory is physically impossible. As soon as things start to look like the reapers might lose, which as computer intelligences they'll be able to predict before it happens, all that needs to be done is just one of them heading off into space in a random direction, several thousand years go by, even 10s of thousands of years, it comes across a planet of primitives, converts them, infiltrates the civilizations of that cycles, slowly indoctrinates and so on and so forth and on it goes.

I like to believe the catalyst being a 'catalyst' had nothing to do with rbg beams but concept of the machine was the catalyst in making all the races work together and THAT is the real weapon that should finally defeat the reapers but unfortunately as with the example i wrote above there's just to many logic hole in a conventional victory for it to actually work. If bioware did it it would be ripped to shreds by nerds in seconds just like the original endings were.

I disagree, if protheans were able to develop technology that could detect indoctrination, then after x hundred or thousand years, we most certainly can as well.

Furthermore without the ability to shut off the relays like they did with every other cycle the reapers are forced to spread themselves thin. They have to cover the entire galaxy so that nothing slips past their net, whereas before they could focus, wipe out a Star system and move on. Now they have to linger since someone could just jump through the relay and slip into a previously purged section of space and hide there.

If the Bulk of the Reaper's Sovereign class vessels can be broken at earth, that marks the begining of the end for the Reaper fleet as a whole.

[ghost9191]

ld1449 wrote...

AdrynBliss wrote...

Without a weapon that hit every last reaper at the same time everywhere conventional victory is physically impossible. As soon as things start to look like the reapers might lose, which as computer intelligences they'll be able to predict before it happens, all that needs to be done is just one of them heading off into space in a random direction, several thousand years go by, even 10s of thousands of years, it comes across a planet of primitives, converts them, infiltrates the civilizations of that cycles, slowly indoctrinates and so on and so forth and on it goes.

I like to believe the catalyst being a 'catalyst' had nothing to do with rbg beams but concept of the machine was the catalyst in making all the races work together and THAT is the real weapon that should finally defeat the reapers but unfortunately as with the example i wrote above there's just to many logic hole in a conventional victory for it to actually work. If bioware did it it would be ripped to shreds by nerds in seconds just like the original endings were.

I disagree, if protheans were able to develop technology that could detect indoctrination, then after x hundred or thousand years, we most certainly can as well.

Furthermore without the ability to shut off the relays like they did with every other cycle the reapers are forced to spread themselves thin. They have to cover the entire galaxy so that nothing slips past their net, whereas before they could focus, wipe out a Star system and move on. Now they have to linger since someone could just jump through the relay and slip into a previously purged section of space and hide there.

If the Bulk of the Reaper's Sovereign class vessels can be broken at earth, that marks the begining of the end for the Reaper fleet as a whole.

yeah the problem is now though , how many of our ships go down before one of theirs does. but might find something to at least come close to tipping th ebalance. just gotta fight a war of attrition  , though with the reapers that would be a b*tch . odds our we would run out before they do . unless again we find something that tips the balance

[KENNY4753]

KENNY4753 wrote...

 As much as I love your Puzzle Theory Jade, this is how I feel

https://encrypted-tb...V_xNwzRIM5WeV9A

unfortunatly this is still how I feel

[ld1449]

ghost9191 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

AdrynBliss wrote...

Without a weapon that hit every last reaper at the same time everywhere conventional victory is physically impossible. As soon as things start to look like the reapers might lose, which as computer intelligences they'll be able to predict before it happens, all that needs to be done is just one of them heading off into space in a random direction, several thousand years go by, even 10s of thousands of years, it comes across a planet of primitives, converts them, infiltrates the civilizations of that cycles, slowly indoctrinates and so on and so forth and on it goes.

I like to believe the catalyst being a 'catalyst' had nothing to do with rbg beams but concept of the machine was the catalyst in making all the races work together and THAT is the real weapon that should finally defeat the reapers but unfortunately as with the example i wrote above there's just to many logic hole in a conventional victory for it to actually work. If bioware did it it would be ripped to shreds by nerds in seconds just like the original endings were.

I disagree, if protheans were able to develop technology that could detect indoctrination, then after x hundred or thousand years, we most certainly can as well.

Furthermore without the ability to shut off the relays like they did with every other cycle the reapers are forced to spread themselves thin. They have to cover the entire galaxy so that nothing slips past their net, whereas before they could focus, wipe out a Star system and move on. Now they have to linger since someone could just jump through the relay and slip into a previously purged section of space and hide there.

If the Bulk of the Reaper's Sovereign class vessels can be broken at earth, that marks the begining of the end for the Reaper fleet as a whole.

yeah the problem is now though , how many of our ships go down before one of theirs does. but might find something to at least come close to tipping th ebalance. just gotta fight a war of attrition  , though with the reapers that would be a b*tch . odds our we would run out before they do . unless again we find something that tips the balance

I'm not saying you need a complete overwhelming victory at earth to win.

Quite frankly, even if the Reapers have 20 Sovereign class reapers left by the end of it and we have barely a hundred, it would be enough.

Given the fact that in the ME universe you can build things in space people can create whole dreadnoughts and friggates out in deep space ala-geth heretic base.

The point is to cause enough dammage so that the Reapers no longer have the punching power of their sovereign class reapers. Because those, by and large are the biggest problem facing us. Once the majority of them are gone, the destroyers and other smaller vessels are more than capable of being brought down.

Add to that the fact that the Reapers are bogged down by the innability to leave XYZ system because they can't cut off the Organics from the Mass Relays, you've essentially stopped them from remassing and reorganizing into a concentrated force.

All the remaining fleet would have to do, would be to go to isolated systems and defeat the Reapers stationed there with hit and run guerrilla tactics, which the Asari have shown to be more than enough to destroy even sovereign class Reapers.

The breathing room we need would be granted with a victory at earth.

[Jadebaby]

ghost9191 wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

No chance, More chance of EA/Bioware releasing a Trilogy pack and not including........ all........... the..... DLC.... mmmmmmmmm

meh bioware wouldn't do that, they would at least include the weapon packs

You guys are joking, right?

[Jadebaby]

Id1449, that's very well thought out, I didn't even click that the Protheans had indoctrination detecting abilites.. Well, that's a lie, I knew they did since ME1, but I never really thought about how it'd be actual tech that they'd built. Although in both instances of detection, the 'subject' was implanted with Reaper tech, so we don't know whether it can detect subtle indoctrination or whether it just detects the implants.

[ghost9191]

one yes jade

Id1440

that is what i mean , a war of attrition . or attrition warfare. over time ( which it will be a b*tch as said ) wear down their forces . smaller forces have done it . the key is to do more dmg and take less. like you said hit and run. take out what you can and get out before you lose anything. it can be done but would take awhile

thanix cannons can take out reapers shields. we might find smething through dlc that tips the scales ,

leviathans can take control of them ffs . and well quantity is a quality all its own. and the quarians have 50k ships. and rigged most of them. geth have a decent amount of dreadnaughts also,. and more powerful then alliacne. so it can be done in theory . if the scales are tipped. but it showed through cutscenes that the reapers were pretty much winning lol

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Jadebaby]

If we did win through "hit and run" tactics. Which we heard about in the SP campaign and MP operations as well no less.

Then it would be the more impressive display of "size isn't everything."

[BansheeOwnage]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If we did win through "hit and run" tactics. Which we heard about in the SP campaign and MP operations as well no less.

Then it would be the more impressive display of "size isn't everything."

Yeah, you also need endurance, resolve, stamina, speed, agility, reach, flexibility, determination, and cunning.

[ghost9191]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If we did win through "hit and run" tactics. Which we heard about in the SP campaign and MP operations as well no less.

Then it would be the more impressive display of "size isn't everything."

Yeah, you also need endurance, resolve, stamina, speed, agility, reach, flexibility, determination, and cunning.

well f*ck if that is all, thank god we have Garrus:O well 8 out of 9 should do it. i will just find that turian scout it spoke of

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Jadebaby]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If we did win through "hit and run" tactics. Which we heard about in the SP campaign and MP operations as well no less.

Then it would be the more impressive display of "size isn't everything."

Yeah, you also need endurance, resolve, stamina, speed, agility, reach, flexibility, determination, and cunning.

War Assets:

Endurance: Krogan, Rachni, Elcor, Batarian and Geth
Resolve: Pretty much every race is determined to defeat the Reapers.
Stamina: Human, Krogan, Turian, Geth.
Speed: Human, Geth, Drell, Vorcha, Quarian, Asari. or any other race that's wearing an adrenaline module ; )
Agility: Human, Geth, Drell, Asari, Quarian, Vorcha, female Turians?
Reach: Turian, Human, Rachni, Asari.
Flexibility: Human, Drell, Asari, Vorcha, female Turian, Geth.
Determination: See resolve.
Cunning: Human, Quarian, Drell, Batarian, Asari
Intelligence: Quarian, Geth, Salarian, Hanar, Human. Asari, Rachni, Volus


Probably missed a couple, but that looks pretty damn good to me.

That's the beauty of the Multiplayer though, because you can actually see for your own eyes just how badly Krogans can trump Reaper ground forces.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 03 novembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Nice list. The Krogan really do kick the reaper ground forces in MP.

[MWMike2011]

Great theory. The way I see it, and I apologize if its been brought up above, I am getting too impatient to read all 50 pages, but I feel they could add this and/or Indoctrination Theory without going back on their word that they will not change the ending by simply following through with an original plan that includes both these theories. That all of this was part of their original plan all along. Yes, cynics will say that they were full of **** the whole time, that I'm grasping at straws, which I am. I want to believe there is still the chance BW has an ace up their sleeve...