2749 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

That's completely beside the point, the very fact that the dialog line of "No, I wont." appears or the fact that Shepard can shoot the Catalyst disproves that Shepard is bound by those choices. It doesn't matter if it's the Refuse speech or not. C'mon, I consider you one of the more smarter posters on this forum, how did you not see this?

But I never argued that Shep is bound by choices, of course he isn't, and it doesn't matter if he can shoot Caty in Destroy+Control-but-no-Synthesis option. The fact that he already can refuse in even one case (all 3 endings available) automatically shows he is not bound by any "Force" or programming or anything to go and make any choice. Not sure where the issue is here

My point is that he doesn't have to be right about Shep in order to be right about himself. He could think Shep is ugly and he would be absolutely wrong to think so because my Shep is the hottest but when it comes to himself, he would still be correct. He is himself, so he won't be wrong on that ;P

In any case, all information provided makes for one undeniable conclusion to me - the Crucible forces him to present the choices even if he doesn't like them. He says it himself, the Crucible changed him (obviously means reprogrammed), made new possibilities that he can't make himself happen but he has to have them happen because he is bound by them post-rewrite. He gets mad when you Refuse, post-rewrite he would even prefer you to delete him and Destroy Reapers than Refuse, just as long as you pick one of the choices instead of not picking any. The Crucible plans indeed incorporated the use of the Catalyst to full extenct, like Vendetta said.

I finally get it

And it is not incompatible with PT, succesful refuse doesn't depend on Caty but on War Assets

Modifié par IsaacShep, 08 janvier 2013 - 03:44 .

[Jadebaby]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
...not strictly true, the Catalyst does discuss Destroy as a potential use of the Crucible, but presents it in almost a completely negative light (it won't discriminate/it will kill the geth/you might die too/it won't solve anything in the long run).

Even in this rebuttal you're not being honest. He doesn't represent destroy as negative as this, he never actually states that Shepard will die..

I was merely summarizing the Catalyst's opinion of Destroy.  I can dig out the Catalyst's exact speech if you'd prefer, but we all know what the Catalyst means when he says "even you are partly synthetic."  He is implying that Shepard may well die as a result of choosing Destroy, and using it as a deterrent.

Odd then that the Catalyst also tells us that Shepard will die in Control and Synthesis, but in those instances, he doesn't use it as a deterrent... implying that it will be a noble sacrifice, that we (or all life) will become somethign greater as a result.

Not entirely true, while he does say exactly and bluntly in the control ending that "you will die." He also goes on to say that you will let go of your corporeal form. Implying that Shepard's spirit will live on in the catalyst, even if "Shepard" wont.

But yes, essentially he tries to dissuade Shepard from Destroy. In the Literal interpretation I'm okay with that, in the indoctrination interpretation (see that Blur?) it could mean anything (reverse psychology isn't that deep of a pychological tool, therefore the Reapers could be using this)

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

That's completely beside the point, the very fact that the dialog line of "No, I wont." appears or the fact that Shepard can shoot the Catalyst disproves that Shepard is bound by those choices. It doesn't matter if it's the Refuse speech or not. C'mon, I consider you one of the more smarter posters on this forum, how did you not see this?

But I never argued that Shep is bound by choices, of course he isn't, and it doesn't matter if he can shoot Caty in Destroy+Control-but-no-Synthesis option. The fact that he already can refuse in even one case (all 3 endings available) automatically shows he is not bound by any "Force" or programming or anything to go and make any choice. Not sure where the issue is here

My point is that he doesn't have to be right about Shep in order to be right about himself. He could think Shep is ugly and he would be absolutely wrong to think so because my Shep is the hottest but when it comes to himself, he would still be correct. He is himself, so he won't be wrong on that ;P

In any case, all information provided makes for one undeniable conclusion to me - the Crucible forces him to present the choices even if he doesn't like them. He says it himself, the Crucible changed him (obviously means reprogrammed), made new possibilities that he can't make himself happen but he has to have them happen because he is bound by them post-rewrite. He gets mad when you Refuse, post-rerwrite he would even prefer you to delete him and Destroy Reapers than Refuse. The Crucible plans indeed incorporated the use of the Catalyst to full extenct, like Vendetta said.

I finally get it

And it is not incompatible with PT, succesful refuse doesn't depend on Caty but on War Assets

I agree, except for the part about the hotness of your Shepard, I would have to see a screenshot before I can agree with that

[shepskisaac]

Jade8aby88 wrote...


I agree, except for the part about the hotness of your Shepard

Oh no you didn't!!!

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


I agree, except for the part about the hotness of your Shepard

Oh no you didn't!!!

Most awesome emoticon ever!

But seriously, send me a link to your Shepard and we can put this matter behind us

[shepskisaac]

It's Sheploo  I don't have pics of my older custom Sheps

Modifié par IsaacShep, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:02 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

[...]

Exactly, which is why this theory doesn't exactly support refuse in it's current state. It simply tries to predict what BioWare might be doing with the refuse ending..

They said that they had to switch around the DLC schedule before the EC.. As per Gambles tweet..

"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning…you’d, we’ll – hold onto your copy of [Mass Effect 3] forever."

After this tweet it was confirmed that they rearranged their dlc schedule.

Now my guess is it was to allow Leviathan to come first in the dlc schedule (instead of Omega maybe). And that maybe refuse would have been incorporated into the final dlc. But instead that implanted the "catalyst" for this ending in the EC to give people hope.

Well, I obviously don't know what they planned and when, but the way I read this quote was always: "Please don't give your copies to the secondhand market." As this would kill a big portion of their revenue.
His argument that it would be wise to hold on to the copy because there are more DLC's planned is both weak and very vague. He doesn't hint at any specific content, just there will be "more".
In his mind-set, I'm sure, it would have been very sad if somebody would have sold ME3 before "Omega" came out because "Omega" is a must-have for every ME fan... etc.

So, my point is: he didn't hint at anything that would expand on the "ending" experience.

This goes in accordance with everything the devs and mods said about "there will be no more ending related content" post EC.

The rearrangement was necessary because the ending sucked more than they knew it did.

Of course, that was way back when the game came out. Who knows what they talked about and planned in the meanwhile. Maybe they added Leviathan only to add more sense to the ending (without having to change the ending itself). Maybe they decided to finally get rid of the ending as it is with a future expansion... we don't know.

But with this tweet I'm very sure that people read more into it than what was intended.

[jojon2se]

Effects of the puzzle theory could pick up and trickle in (e.g. MP and DLC info), almost at any point throughout ME3 and under any degree of hallucination - it has not been narrowed down to any sort of enforced "party line".

Leaving aside the big picture; When it comes to Shep, near the end, personally I'm leaning towards Shepard being out cold in London and the entire Citadel/Crucible thing taking place in her/his head (...and Destroy, by extension, being acceptance of Starboy's "It is an unfortunate but necessary evil"/"No man(machine)-no problem"/"I choose for everybody" doctrine-fragment -- no matter how much one may think: "not really", the first step is taken and drastically so), but let's speculate on things at the other end of the spectrum, where Shepard is mostly seeing things as they really are (no Bioshock2LittleSister/MeetThePyro thing) and really is up there, to turn down Starkid's "solutions", in the flesh; if nothing else, then because that would most effectively let us keep the defiant speech thingie and not diminish the emotional impact of the Anderson scenes.

Never mind how honest Starboy was in his presentations and all that - just consider where Shepard goes next, after the refusal -- immediately and following that. Do we have any significant puzzle pieces to suggest new approaches?

Ok; Shepard is bad off, precariously located and unlikely to be pulling any significant stunts alone (EDIT: ...until healed/reequipped): Immediate things happening?

Picked up by a vessel?

Finding a way into either the Citadel or the Crucible - alone or rescued by Bailey and co (EDIT: ...maybe even playing as him thru half of a Citadel DLC - first fending off Reapers who tries to get into the Citadel (which they have captured and tows, but which remains closed and "undisturbed on the inside"), then finding Shep and finally back to the regular protagonist)?

Others?

Modifié par jojon2se, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[Jadebaby]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

[...]

Exactly, which is why this theory doesn't exactly support refuse in it's current state. It simply tries to predict what BioWare might be doing with the refuse ending..

They said that they had to switch around the DLC schedule before the EC.. As per Gambles tweet..

"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning…you’d, we’ll – hold onto your copy of [Mass Effect 3] forever."

After this tweet it was confirmed that they rearranged their dlc schedule.

Now my guess is it was to allow Leviathan to come first in the dlc schedule (instead of Omega maybe). And that maybe refuse would have been incorporated into the final dlc. But instead that implanted the "catalyst" for this ending in the EC to give people hope.

Well, I obviously don't know what they planned and when, but the way I read this quote was always: "Please don't give your copies to the secondhand market." As this would kill a big portion of their revenue.
His argument that it would be wise to hold on to the copy because there are more DLC's planned is both weak and very vague. He doesn't hint at any specific content, just there will be "more".
In his mind-set, I'm sure, it would have been very sad if somebody would have sold ME3 before "Omega" came out because "Omega" is a must-have for every ME fan... etc.

So, my point is: he didn't hint at anything that would expand on the "ending" experience.

This goes in accordance with everything the devs and mods said about "there will be no more ending related content" post EC.

The rearrangement was necessary because the ending sucked more than they knew it did.

Of course, that was way back when the game came out. Who knows what they talked about and planned in the meanwhile. Maybe they added Leviathan only to add more sense to the ending (without having to change the ending itself). Maybe they decided to finally get rid of the ending as it is with a future expansion... we don't know.

But with this tweet I'm very sure that people read more into it than what was intended.

No the "hardest day ever" line was because he had spent the whole day rearranging the dlc cycle. They didn't add Leviathan here, they just rearranged things so EC and then Leviathan would come before everything else. (Imagine if we had of got Omega before Leviathan or EC?)

So the question here is, what else did they rearrange?

jojon2se wrote...
Effects of the puzzle theory could pick up and trickle in (e.g. MP and DLC info), almost at any point throughout ME3 and under any degree of hallucination - it has not been narrowed down to any sort of enforced "party line".

Leaving aside the big picture; When it comes to Shep, near the end, personally I'm leaning towards Shepard being out cold in London and the entire Citadel/Crucible thing taking place in her/his head (...and Destroy, by extension, being acceptance of Starboy's "It is an unfortunate but necessary evil"/"No man(machine)-no problem"/"I choose for everybody" doctrine-fragment -- no matter how much one may think: "not really", the first step is taken and drastically so), but let's speculate on things at the other end of the spectrum, where Shepard is mostly seeing things as they really are (no Bioshock2LittleSister/MeetThePyro thing) and really is up there, to turn down Starkid's "solutions", in the flesh; if nothing else, then because that would most effectively let us keep the defiant speech thingie and not diminish the emotional impact of the Anderson scenes.

Never mind how honest Starboy was in his presentations and all that - just consider where Shepard goes next, after the refusal -- immediately and following that. Do we have any significant puzzle pieces to suggest new approaches?

Ok; Shepard is bad off, precariously located and unlikely to be pulling any significant stunts alone (EDIT: ...until healed/reequipped): Immediate things happening?

Picked up by a vessel?

Finding a way into either the Citadel or the Crucible - alone or rescued by Bailey and co (EDIT: ...maybe even playing as him thru half of a Citadel DLC - first fending off Reapers who tries to get into the Citadel (which they have captured and tows, but which remains closed and "undisturbed on the inside"), then finding Shep and finally back to the regular protagonist)?

Others?

Yes the way I see it is that Shepard gets picked up by the Normandy after refusing. Medigels and reequips then "stuff happens*" and the ending plays out with war assets.

But if you're going for an IT style ending, well the same could happen, the Normandy only picked up your squadmates a very short time before Harbinger blasted you. It wouldn't be anymore unrealistic (than it already is) for the Normandy to land again and have a squadmate or two run out to get you. Then medigel, stuff happens*, and ending plays out via war assets/ the "real" crucible fires (Indoctrination compatable).

* - This is the variable. That special something that gives the galaxy the edge over the Reapers. It could be the Leviathans aid or it could be something else entirely. That's up to BioWare.

[StayFrosty05]

Having read through 'Puzzle Theory' for the first time yesterday, it's had the unfortunate side effect of putting me off my game........Reason being, I had managed to bury my head in the sand about the ending and pretend it doesn't exist as such, heavily glossing it over, drowning it out with my own 'Imagination' into almost non-existance in the rather sad attempt to salvage something from my beloved game.

Reading 'Puzzle Theory' has re-awakened my hope that maybe we haven't been completely sc*wed over after all and BW may have something amazing up their sleeves still left to be sprung on us.

Puzzle Theory does seem to point to something, as so much makes so little sense in the way of hints dropped, so many more 'War Assets' with no reason for being, the steps forward we seem to be able to take in the war against the Reapers, but all for nought at the current time....Just pointless numbers and pointless added story as they stand for now.

So, apparently this next SP DLC is meant to be a big one from what I hear....I would take a guess that if the 'Puzzle Theory' does prove to be correct, it won't be revealed in this upcoming DLC....reason being, I think it would be something that BW would leave until the very last, the final DLC for the ME franchise, as it would be such a tremendoes game changing reveal....and so I don't hold my breath for this next DLC....but do wonder in frustration and some trepidation,  'too afraid to hope for it', but excited and hopeful none-the -less how many more DLC's it will take if there is to be such a reveal.

And so more now, having to re-consider the ending again and think about future possibilities....I really don't want to face the current ending we have again now that I have pulled my head out of the sand for another look at what's going on...I will once again notice the horror of what we currrently have and so am off my game.......I think I will just keep pushing myself through this run (nearly there, just finishing up with the Quarians) then place the game aside until such a time that the 'Puzzle Theory' or something just as wonderful is either proven or dis-proven....and from there play the game with utter joy and love (a from then on in 'staunch supporter of all things BW) or abandon both the game and further BW games altogether....I don't want to get burnt again....

PS....Now I have just got to try and remember how I pick up a banner for my profile again........Will use a 'Puzzle Theory' banner once I work it out....

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 10 janvier 2013 - 12:21 .

[Jadebaby]

Thanks for the support you guys, muchly appreiciated

@StayFrosty, Go to the OP and select what ever banner you want to use by right clicking it and selecting "copy".

Then go to the bar on the upper lefft side of the page and select Profile -> Forum Settings -> Signature.
Then right click the box next to "signature" and select "paste".

[CosmicGnosis]

I think it's about time that I finally post something in this thread. I, too, would like BioWare to do something new with the ending, mostly because I feel sorry for the fanbase. I can live with what we currently have, but I understand that many others cannot.

Also, I feel particularly sorry for you, Jade. I feel bad that your preferred ending did not receive its deserved respect from BioWare. Now, I don't believe that a conventional victory is possible. However, I do believe that Refuse should have depicted an emotional last stand for Shepard and friends.

Even if Refuse leads to a loss, the player should be able to feel that the current cycle died for something. We should be allowed to see exactly what they did to ensure that the next cycle would be victorious. I personally wouldn't choose it, but I suspect that a better presentation would make Refuse far more appealing, maybe even inspiring.

[Jadebaby]

Thank you for your concern Cosmic Gnosis. It's actually very releaving to learn that there are some people out there that are content themselves but hope for better for the rest of the fanbase. Too often you see content fans actively campaigning against others when all they want to do is love the game as much as the content people.

That's why I'm predicting this theory and hoping for it as well. So that refuse can be seen as something more than what it is currently.

[StayFrosty05]

JadeShepard wrote...

Thanks for the support you guys, muchly appreiciated

@StayFrosty, Go to the OP and select what ever banner you want to use by right clicking it and selecting "copy".

Then go to the bar on the upper lefft side of the page and select Profile -> Forum Settings -> Signature.
Then right click the box next to "signature" and select "paste".

Thank you.......Banner achieved.

[Medievalist]

I'm following this thread for quite a while now and find it rather intriguing.
I even made up a thread of my own regarding the question of surplus War Assets "War Assets and their (hidden) purpose", before I discovered this was also featured in the Puzzle Theory.

In this rescpect I fully support the PT and expect/hope the upcoming "Citadel DLC" will be (one of) the final pieces.

However, I disagree on the role of MP operations: I don't think they play any crucial part, should the PT be true.

In any case: Good job, Jade!

[Jadebaby]

Thank you Medievalist. The MP operations are just a contributing factor. The main help we would be getting is from SP dlc's.. Ala Leviathan (Strong ally), Omega (great resources and allies) and whatever comes next.

[lex0r11]

Wish I had any useful speculations to share.

But I refuse the catalyst and accept/support this theory.





Puzzle on, people.

Modifié par lex0r11, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:41 .

[Ignis Mors]

Operation GENESIS (Jan 11th-13th)
Event Description: Casualties and battle fatigue
have worn down some of our best units. We are cycling out soldiers whose
tours of duty have been hyperextended and substituting fresh troops
from human colonies. Experienced commanders are expected to stay on
duty, maintain unit cohesion, and hold new recruits to N7 standards.
Individual Goal: Extract twice, once as a base male
human and once as a base female human (Adept, Engineer, Infiltrator,
Sentinel, Soldier, or Vanguard classes) on any map at any difficulty.
So, just saw the weekend challenge. Do you have any idea what replacing some of the older soldiers would have on the war as a whole?

[garf]

Honestly? this theory reminds me of people desperately trying to convince themselves and others that Paul McCartney died in the early 60's.

I personally believe that we got, what we got. and since I've already paid for ME 3, the only way I can take the 'If you don't like it, don't buy it' advice is not to buy anything more from EA/Bioware.

Okay...

done.

[DrHojo123]

garf wrote...

Honestly? this theory reminds me of people desperately trying to convince themselves and others that Paul McCartney died in the early 60's.

I personally believe that we got, what we got. and since I've already paid for ME 3, the only way I can take the 'If you don't like it, don't buy it' advice is not to buy anything more from EA/Bioware.

Okay...

done.

No matter how far fatched it is people have the right to post what the think I belive in any thoey just to make the ending more bareable I love ME3 but the ending was bad

[Ignis Mors]

I was just thinking about the last book in the Inheritance Cycle, and I was wondering what you guys would think if a post-ending DLC was rebuilding, making sure that the galaxy was set to keep going without Shepard helping to establish. So he or she and their LI can just settle down together where no one can find you. That way you can just relax until you die.

Modifié par Ignis Mors, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:28 .

[shepskisaac]

Wait, Jade, remember the Destroy+Control-no-Synthesis video I found? youtu.be/JrAlm-sn2So It actually does have Refuse option I think, look at the bottom of the screen at 11:20. The video is a bit cropped but I see the "I reject these choices!" option.

[Jadebaby]

Ignis Mors wrote...

Operation GENESIS (Jan 11th-13th)
Event Description: Casualties and battle fatigue
have worn down some of our best units. We are cycling out soldiers whose
tours of duty have been hyperextended and substituting fresh troops
from human colonies. Experienced commanders are expected to stay on
duty, maintain unit cohesion, and hold new recruits to N7 standards.
Individual Goal: Extract twice, once as a base male
human and once as a base female human (Adept, Engineer, Infiltrator,
Sentinel, Soldier, or Vanguard classes) on any map at any difficulty.
So, just saw the weekend challenge. Do you have any idea what replacing some of the older soldiers would have on the war as a whole?

Well, it does show that at least there is a definitive operations timeline now and they aren't just random.
However, this will depends moreso on the win statement and if it has an allied goal (which it doesn't seem too).

The allied operations are much more intriguing and thorough imo.

garf wrote...

Honestly? this theory reminds me of people desperately trying to convince themselves and others that Paul McCartney died in the early 60's.

I personally believe that we got, what we got. and since I've already paid for ME 3, the only way I can take the 'If you don't like it, don't buy it' advice is not to buy anything more from EA/Bioware.

Okay...

done.

Respect to you then, but I love Mass Effect too much to give up while there is still hope. And Besides the games I've spent at least a hundred dollar on ME merchandise. So why would I have a problem paying more for something in the actual game? Especially if it's ending related?

Why do people even ask/complaing to BioWare for new ending stuff if they aren't willing to pay for it? Surely you have figured out how this world works by now, right?

Plus, we got the EC for free, so...

Ignis Mors wrote...

I was just thinking about the last book in the Inheritance Cycle, and I was wondering what you guys would think if a post-ending DLC was rebuilding, making sure that the galaxy was set to keep going without Shepard helping to establish. So he or she and their LI can just settle down together where no one can find you. That way you can just relax until you die.

I'm for this. Half the reason this theory exists is because Shepard deserves better.
______________________

Attention:

I am going to update the OP fairly soon and reword some sections and add new sections [Retaliation DLC, Operation Alamo etc..] The problem is I haven't played Omega and don't intend to buy it until I know what the next dlc is and where BioWare are headed with ME3. I know Omega gives you resources in Eezo, and more mercenaries(?) too.

What I'm asking is, would someone who *has* played it and also supports the Puzzle Theory, like to write up this section for me? As it wouldn't be very credible for me to do it since I haven't played it.