84 réponses à ce sujet

[Asharhia]

Intersting, Op, very interesting. Thank you for sharing it!

[sth128]

MetioricTest wrote...

Exactly. The fact we see the elevator + the Catalyst BEFORE Shepard wakes up proves they exist.

You're missing my point. Just because we see something doesn't mean it actually happened. We see masked Quarians in the Geth interface, yet Legion says that the images are a combination of Shepard's own interpretation and memories.

When TIM took control of Shepard and Anderson, we also see a smoky effect around the screen. Are we seeing what's really happening (ie. a rectangular effect framing Shepard) or an artistic interpretation of what Shepard is feeling while under TIM's control?

If you're gonna interpret EVERYTHING at their face value, then there's no point in reading any other interpretation. You are UNWILLING to accept my point of view simply because it's not your point of view. If that's the case then there's no need to disagree with me.

You're seeking "evidence" in an artistic work filled with symbolism and questionable logic. This isn't science. This is science FICTION.

If we accepted EVERYTHING we see as absolute fact, then NOBODY can explain the magical Predator pistol and Avenger rifle that keep popping up. Since those items are contrary to the reality of the game universe, NOTHING is real and Shepard was NEVER awake.

[Angelo2027]

I really like this theory! Good job OP.

[D24O]

The Catalyst is a character in a video game, so OP is right, he doesn't exist..

[SubAstris]

sth128 wrote...

So everyone hates the Catalyst. Nobody can explain why it didn't just activate the Citadel relay in the first game if it controls everything. Why does it look like the kid that's been haunting Shepard's dreams? Why why why?

The answer? The Catalyst does not actually exist.

Let's look at the Crucible: which civilization was the last to build and improve its design? The Protheans. Javik specifically said that their technology communicate through neural interface. The Beacons transmit thoughts and ideas directly into its users instead of telling them the message via words and sound. Therefore, I posit that the Protheans integrated this technology into the Crucible as part of its control interface.

What was the last thing we see before Shepard meets the Catalyst? Shepard collapses and a bright flash engulfs the screen. When this happens, Shepard's mind is directly linked to the Crucible control and everything we see is happening in Shepard's head. Immediately after the flash the Citadel arms open fully. The moment Shepard interfaced with the Crucible, the activation sequence had begun.

Each option we see is the symbolic representation of its consequence. In Destroy, Shepard uses a weapon to literally destroy a power conduit. In Control, Shepard takes hold of two control pillars. In Synthesis, Shepard embraces the Crucible beam and becomes one with everything.

So what is the Catalyst then, if it doesn't actually exist? The Catalyst is actually Shepard's doubts and fears. From the start of his journey, the child has been haunting Shepard, that humanity may not survive the war, that he might fail in his mission. We see this in Shepard's recurring nightmares.

The child is a way for Shepard's mind to make sense of the ordeal. He is essentially dreaming up the Catalyst to explain away why things are the way they are. Shepard doesn't question its logic because nobody thinks dreams are weird when they are dreaming. If Shepard has a low EMS, the Catalyst asks "why are you here", as if his doubts and fears know that Shepard hasn't done everything possible to bring the galaxy together.

"Wait, but how does this fit into the Control ending", you ask? "Doesn't Shepard replace the Catalyst"?

No he doesn't. You cannot replace something that never existed. When Shepard chooses Control, his consciousness (still linked to Crucible) is embedded in a data burst and sent out across the galaxy to overwrite the core programming of every Reaper. Once taken Control, Shepard's mind literally exists in every Reaper. He becomes the "collective intelligence of the Reapers". This explains why you need to fire the Crucible in the Control choice. After all, if you are just taking over control from the Catalyst, you can just send out instructions the same way the Catalyst did, without the need of a giant blue bubble.

My hypothesis eliminates the inconsistency between previous games and this one since nothing is really controlling the Reapers and the Catalyst really is just the Citadel, and not a translucent kid living there. All insanities spouted by the Catalyst are just the inner conflicts of an unconscious mind exhausted from war and injury.

Furthermore, there is no secret room on the bottom of the Citadel tower with three retractable catwalks just waiting for someone to dock a Crucible. The collective efforts of the Cycles before us did not forget to include an activation switch and instead relied on its user shooting up the place. The hypothesis is not as extreme as to disclaim the existence of everything (ie. IT), but not as naive as to take everything at its face value.

It is, dare I say, the perfect solution...

First, it is never stated that the Catalyst controls everything or even has the ability to activate the relay, so your argument falls flat there.

You say that Shepard doesn't question the Catalyst, and yet in the EC it is obvious that s/he does, and if s/he isn't convinced, s/he can choose "refuse".

Furthermore, if the Catalyst doesn't exist, why its presence so greatly foreshadowed by Vendetta's comments of there being a controlling force behind the Reapers?

[steej]

OMG!
What if none of the MassEffect saga happened?
What if it was ALL a dream of that kid, but in modern times?!
Yeah, and..and when he wakes up he has, like, little action figures of the whole crew and toy ships scatered about his bed-oom but as none of it happened he has to go to school instead..and his teachers name is Mr Shepard!

OMFG!!

[sth128]

SubAstris wrote...

sth128 wrote...

[entire article]

First, it is never stated that the Catalyst controls everything or even has the ability to activate the relay, so your argument falls flat there.

First, NEVER QUOTE THE ENTIRE ARTICLE. Quote what you want to refute / argue, then post your argument. Basic forum etiquette.

Second, this is a direct quote from the Catalyst "I control the Reapers". The Citadel and the Relays are controlled by the Reapers. Therefore the Catalyst controls the Citadel and the Relays.

It's the same as me saying "I command the TV remote". The TV remote controls the TV, therefore I AM IN CONTROL OF THE TV.

You say that Shepard doesn't question the Catalyst, and yet in the EC it is obvious that s/he does, and if s/he isn't convinced, s/he can choose "refuse".

Refusal is NOT the same as questioning. Some people refuse the theory of evolution. They are not questioning the science behind it, they are simply refusing it out right.

When the Catalyst describe the Reapers as a force of nature (fire) and not at war with the galaxy, Shepard does not question their motive or purpose. Shepard ACCEPTS the Catalyst's explanation despite the fact that fire is not programmed nor conscious. Fire does not store its fuel into Reaper form. Fire does not come back every 50,000 years, incite rebellion among synthetics, or indoctrinate living things.

Furthermore, if the Catalyst doesn't exist, why its presence so greatly foreshadowed by Vendetta's comments of there being a controlling force behind the Reapers?

Vendetta doesn't say there's a being controlling the Reapers. He said there are patterns to every cycle. He also said the same for the advancement of civilizations and biological evolution.

And the last thing he said was the pattern was inferred, not observed.

In fact, in my hypothesis the Catalyst IS a combination of Shepard's own experience and Prothean programming. The Catalyst could very well be the Prothean's idea of a "puppet master".

[sth128]

steej wrote...

OMG!
What if none of the MassEffect saga happened?
What if it was ALL a dream of that kid, but in modern times?!
Yeah, and..and when he wakes up he has, like, little action figures of the whole crew and toy ships scatered about his bed-oom but as none of it happened he has to go to school instead..and his teachers name is Mr Shepard!

OMFG!!

You didn't read my first post did you? I said everything happened as shown in the game. I merely offered a different explanation on the nature of the Catalyst and the Crucible activation mechanisms.

OMG!

What if people actually read the article before yelling OMFG!

[SubAstris]

sth128 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

sth128 wrote...

[entire article]

First, it is never stated that the Catalyst controls everything or even has the ability to activate the relay, so your argument falls flat there.

First, NEVER QUOTE THE ENTIRE ARTICLE. Quote what you want to refute / argue, then post your argument. Basic forum etiquette.

Second, this is a direct quote from the Catalyst "I control the Reapers". The Citadel and the Relays are controlled by the Reapers. Therefore the Catalyst controls the Citadel and the Relays.

It's the same as me saying "I command the TV remote". The TV remote controls the TV, therefore I AM IN CONTROL OF THE TV.

You say that Shepard doesn't question the Catalyst, and yet in the EC it is obvious that s/he does, and if s/he isn't convinced, s/he can choose "refuse".

Refusal is NOT the same as questioning. Some people refuse the theory of evolution. They are not questioning the science behind it, they are simply refusing it out right.

When the Catalyst describe the Reapers as a force of nature (fire) and not at war with the galaxy, Shepard does not question their motive or purpose. Shepard ACCEPTS the Catalyst's explanation despite the fact that fire is not programmed nor conscious. Fire does not store its fuel into Reaper form. Fire does not come back every 50,000 years, incite rebellion among synthetics, or indoctrinate living things.

Furthermore, if the Catalyst doesn't exist, why its presence so greatly foreshadowed by Vendetta's comments of there being a controlling force behind the Reapers?

Vendetta doesn't say there's a being controlling the Reapers. He said there are patterns to every cycle. He also said the same for the advancement of civilizations and biological evolution.

And the last thing he said was the pattern was inferred, not observed.

In fact, in my hypothesis the Catalyst IS a combination of Shepard's own experience and Prothean programming. The Catalyst could very well be the Prothean's idea of a "puppet master".

However, it is never explained "how" it controls them. It could be on a one-to-many basis where the Catalyst controls the actions of every single Reaper force; alternatively he might be in ultimate control but the Reapers are self-autonomous to a large degree.

I never said "refuse" was the same as questioning. I just said that if you didn't like what the Catalyst was saying, then you can choose to disagree and not accept its options. But the fact is that BW did allow some leverage for questioning the Catalyst. That might not be enough for you, but it's a video game, and it's unreasonable to think that all your questions you might have would be answered. His analogy might not be valid, I'm not disputing, but that doesn't necessarily show him to exist.

You're right, he doesn't specific a "being", he does however say that the Reapers are servants not masters of the cycle. Why implies master i.e. the Catalyst? These patterns occur because of the Catalyst's actions; if that is not true, then absolutely no explanation is given for that, which would be very odd.

Correct again. This doesn't mean he is wrong, and in fact we are never given another explanation for why the VI would say this apart from if the Catalyst is real. It just wouldn't make sense.