394 réponses à ce sujet

[Zetheria Tabris]

I actually think this would be a good storyline.

When and how are the city elves going to revolt against the way they are treated? Is it impossible due to the lack of means (not allowed to have weapons, low morale, many other obstacles) and their extremely strong enemy? Would the Dalish help? Who would be their other allies, assuming they found some?

The idea would be to reclaim at least some of the land that was stolen from them, start their own kingdom, and become first class citizens like everyone else. Would they still be Andrastian, or resort to their Dalish roots? As elves produce more mages I assume the Chantry would get involved as well in the war (we all know it would come to that).

All in all, I think if things were done right it would become just as big or even bigger as the mage/templar war.

P.S. I would also appreciate if someone told me if the Chantry law justifies city elf treatment. Is it related to the fact that the ancient elves didn't help them during the first Blight, and that's when it started?

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:16 .

[Wulfram]

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

I don't think Chantry law speaks particularly speaks on City Elf treatment, beyond requiring that they be allowed a place in human cities if they follow the Maker. They don't particularly seem to justify their second class citizen status, but nor do they do anything to stop it.

[LobselVith8]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

I actually think this would be a good storyline.

When and how are the city elves going to revolt against the way they are treated? Is it impossible due to the lack of means (not allowed to have weapons, low morale, many other obstacles) and their extremely strong enemy? Would the Dalish help? Who would be their other allies, assuming they found some? 

From what we know about Ferelden, the City Elves aren't permitted to carry weapons. It's illegal. Trying to revolt against human armies would be difficult, as a result. They also have no real representation in the human government, unless Alistair becomes King of Ferelden or The Warden is a City Elf who becomes Bann of the Alienage (as the other Banns get killed or driven away). However, this doesn't help elves in other nations.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The idea would be to reclaim at least some of the land that was stolen from them, start their own kingdom, and become first class citizens like everyone else. Would they still be Andrastian, or resort to their Dalish roots? As elves produce more mages I assume the Chantry would get involved as well in the war (we all know it would come to that).

All in all, I think if things were done right it would become just as big or even bigger as the mage/templar war.

The Orlesian Empire took the Dales, and they invade other nations. It would be difficult to get the Dales back, unless the Dalish allied with the rebel mages who broke free from the Chantry.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

I would also appreciate if someone told me if the Chantry law justifies city elf treatment. Is it related to the fact that the ancient elves didn't help them during the first Blight, and that's when it started?

It depends on who you believe started the war between the Dales v. Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste. The Chantry claims the elves attacked the town of Red Crossing and started the war, while the Dalish claim that the Chantry tried to convert the elves by sending missionaries into their sovereign nation, and when the elves kicked out the missionaries, the Chantry sent in armed and armored templars.

After the elves lost the war, the Chantry outlawed the elven religion, and forced the elves to convert to the Andrastian Chantry, while the elves who refused to submit became the nomadic Dalish clans.

[Zetheria Tabris]

If The Warden is a Dalish Elf, they can request that their people be given their own settling land so that they may try to recover the things that they lost. But if I remember correctly, that didn't last.

If Alistair is king, he would be sympathetic and want to help the elves, but wouldn't he still need the support of the other nobles? Isn't that what the Landsmeet is all about?

So basically, the elves only hope is to side with someone else who may or may not keep their end of the bargain.

I remember reading about Red Crossing. I think the Chantry lied about that, as well as other things that aren't related to this topic. I do wonder if the elves had foresight of what the arrival of the Magisters would do to them, if they would kill them on sight or imprison them.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish boon turned pear-shaped in Dragon Age II, even though it contradicts the Epilogue to Origins. King Alistair is vague about it.

No matter what boon is chosen, King Alistair gives a seat at the council to the Elder of the Alienage, to much controversy among the humans.

Pretty much, Zetheria. The Dalish can't do it alone. They lost the last war because Orlais and the Chantry had other nations aiding them. One-on-one, the Dalish were beating the Chantry and the Orlesians.

[Face of Evil]

Exactly how did it go pear-shaped, again? I recall Alistair apologizing but the details are left vague.

Unfortunately, I doubt things will ever improve for the elves without some kind of major upheaval.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[Wulfram]

The obvious issue with granting the Dalish lands is, what happens to the pre-existing human inhabitants?

They can't be allowed to remain, the whole point of being Dalish is to avoid the taint of human interaction.

[Zetheria Tabris]

Does the Brecilian Forest have inhabitants? I always thought that would be the best place for them, seeing as it's obviously a magical place, and the greenest area in Ferelden.

The childish part of me wants to say that it was never theirs in the first place and the elves are simply reclaiming what is theirs, but to answer your question, the crown could send pre-existing residents to the nearest town, compensating them with money to keep them calm. However, it still may resort to even more hostility and racial tension.

[dragonflight288]

I don't see the City elves revolting. If you are a City Elf warden, you can either fight back when you're kidnapped or lead a charge into the keep to rescue the women, depending on your gender. But when you return from the keep, get conscripted and leave, things seem pretty decent.

However, the moment you return to alienage, things aren't peachy at all. You are blamed for the troubles in the alienage for having the audacity to fight back. The way I see it, city elves as a culture, simply don't have the desire to stand up for themselves. They ostracize those among them who stand up for themselves, calling them out as bringing trouble on the rest of them. Someone starts to rise and the others are ready to pull them back down.

At least, that's how I've seen it. I'd like it to be different of course. And yes, it would be an interesting story line. But it would also be a bloody one.

[Zetheria Tabris]

To dragonflight288: I see your point. However, your example only ties to the Fereldan Alienage. I can see how they would be upset with the Warden and afraid of uprising, especially since they were punished by Arl Howe after Vaughan was killed. But what about the other Alienages? Let's use Kirkwall, for instance. It's in complete disarray from the mage/templar war. The Dalish are just outside the city. The elves in Kirkwall, at this point, have more of a chance at succeeding than the Fereldan elves, which gives them more hope. With a possible affiliation with the rebel mages and the Dalish, it could be interesting.

Bloody, yes, but after such a downfall it's even harder to claw your way back up.

[General User]

Wulfram wrote...

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

I don't think Chantry law speaks particularly speaks on City Elf treatment, beyond requiring that they be allowed a place in human cities if they follow the Maker. They don't particularly seem to justify their second class citizen status, but nor do they do anything to stop it.

I think that's spot on.  If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

The obvious issue with granting the Dalish lands is, what happens to the pre-existing human inhabitants?

They can't be allowed to remain, the whole point of being Dalish is to avoid the taint of human interaction.

There are plenty of uninhabited areas that 'belong' to humans that are going unused. The Dalish don't set up camp in inhabited areas to begin with, they like isolated areas like Brecilian Forest or Sundermount.

All that would be required is to convince the person ruling that area (in this case, the ruler of Ferelden, or the VIscount of Kirkwall), to make a treaty with a Dalish clan, signing ownership of the area over to them. Of course, the Dalish might want a large area where all the clans can live together. I have no idea if that is feasible, we haven't seen enough of Thedas yet. 

Of course, this won't happen. The elves are just as (if not more) disenfranchised than the mages, with none of their power. No human politician has anything to gain from paying attention to them. Organizing a rebellion is beyond their capabilities, they are too small in number and too scattered to be a credible threat.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .

[TEWR]

Face of Evil wrote...

Exactly how did it go pear-shaped, again? I recall Alistair apologizing but the details are left vague.

Vague is a vast understatement. His comment was to the effect of "I'm sorry about what happened. I'll make it up to your people, as I owe a friend that much".

That's a paraphrase of it anyway. No clue what the real line is, as there aren't any DAII videos of King Alistair uploaded with a Dalish boon that I can find.

[Zetheria Tabris]

The elves are good carpenters, are they not? They could make weapons and trade/sell them, and that which may interest a politician if they're in need of more trading outposts, though I suppose dwarves would value wood more than a human would.

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

[General User]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The elves are good carpenters, are they not? They could make weapons and trade/sell them, and that which may interest a politician if they're in need of more trading outposts, though I suppose dwarves would value wood more than a human would.

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

Traditionally?  Mainly be military service.  Join the King's army.

[Dean_the_Young]

What are these 'civil rights' you speak of? What do they derive from? Who in Thedas has them?

[Zetheria Tabris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What are these 'civil rights' you speak of? What do they derive from? Who in Thedas has them?

Elves are second class citizens, segregated from everyone else and forced to live in poverty. They are not allowed to practice their own religion, and if they are harmed by a human the authorities look the other way. To give them civil rights would mean they would be legally treated like they are not inferior to humans.

To speak generally, humans in Thedas have them, though there are some special cases (for instance, that Orlesian woman who fled Orlais because a Chevalier tried to rape her).

[Daerog]

With the mage-templar war happening, they should just sign up to join the local lords/crowns militia/army.

Didn't work in Fereldan (Loghain's night elves... Loghain later lets slave traders to come in, yes there was disease, but Loghain still had no respect it seems), but could work for Nevarra.

Give a bunch of elves bows (or hire Dalish mercenaries or something), have them get really good at it, have a Nevarran lord get stuck behind Orlesian lines with only elf bowmen, line up to fight a bunch of charging chevaliers, and win the fight. That sounds so familiar...

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The elves are good carpenters, are they not? They could make weapons and trade/sell them, and that which may interest a politician if they're in need of more trading outposts, though I suppose dwarves would value wood more than a human would.

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

Traditionally?  Mainly be military service.  Join the King's army.

None of the humans in Thedas have to join the army in order to be treated like humans.

The elves have already unquestionably proven that they are deserving of the same rights as humans by being law-abiding citizens that pay their taxes. The extra restrictions imposed on elves are nonsensical.

To suggest that a minority should have to perform extra services in order to appease the irrational bigotry of the majority is ridiculous, not to mention insulting.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[Daerog]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

By producing a noticable amount of gold or blood of the nation's enemies.

[Daerog]

Plaintiff wrote...

None of the humans in Thedas have to join the army in order to be treated like humans.

The elves have already unquestionably proven that they are deserving of the same rights as humans by being law-abiding citizens that pay their taxes. The extra restrictions imposed on elves are nonsensical.

To suggest that a minority should have to perform extra services in order to appease the irrational bigotry of the majority is ridiculous, not to mention insulting.

But looking at history, that seems to be the case. Either have to do three times the work or prove that you are stronger.

Goths did everything Romans asked, but still treated like dirt, they sack Rome and they get their own land.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The elves are good carpenters, are they not? They could make weapons and trade/sell them, and that which may interest a politician if they're in need of more trading outposts, though I suppose dwarves would value wood more than a human would.

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

Traditionally?  Mainly be military service.  Join the King's army.

None of the humans in Thedas have to join the army in order to be treated like humans.

The elves have already unquestionably proven that they are deserving of the same rights as humans by being law-abiding citizens that pay their taxes. The extra restrictions imposed on elves are nonsensical.

To suggest that a minority should have to perform extra services in order to appease the irrational bigotry of the majority is ridiculous, not to mention insulting.

If you think that's what I was suggesting, them you missed the point by, well... A LOT.

By faithfully and ably serving in their nations' militaries, the elves wouldn't be appeasing "the irrational bigotry of the majority" (not that the majority of persons in Thedas are irrational bigots in the first place), but instead demonstrating just how irrational that bigotry truely is.

And whether you find it ridiculous/insulting or not, that's how positive, lasting social change happens.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

But looking at history, that seems to be the case. Either have to do three times the work or prove that you are stronger.

Goths did everything Romans asked, but still treated like dirt, they sack Rome and they get their own land.

I think Plaintiff was saying that morally speaking, no minority group should have to walk the extra mile to receive human rights, but I understand the realism of that fact.

General User wrote...

Traditionally? Mainly be military service. Join the King's army.

I have the same response Plaintiff gave you, but I will add to it.

The elves are mainly as they are in the first place because they were originally not Andrastian. They were allowed to live amongst humans only if they worshiped the Maker, but those who did are still second class citizens. By this logic I would say that they have done what was needed to "deserve" human rights.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What are these 'civil rights' you speak of? What do they derive from? Who in Thedas has them?

Fereldan has a strong policy of civil rights.  Anyone is entitled to bring his or her case to the senechal...yes even Elves. 

In Orzammar, unless you are casteless, there is also a strong concept of civil rights except that is strongly tied to the caste you are, but even the lowest servant case can't be executed 'out of hand' (which is why what Bhelen did to the Dwarf Norble Warden exceedingly irregular to say the least...to the point where it ultimately cost Bhelen his margin of safety in the Assembly).  In Kirkwall, freemen (at the very least) also apparently have civil rights, and Wynne openly uses modern moral terms (like genocide) to describe the situation of the circle in DA:A.

So yes, the concept of civil rights and the near universal revulsion against slavery does exist in most parts of Thedas and especially in the Free Marches and Fereldan.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

None of the humans in Thedas have to join the army in order to be treated like humans.

The elves have already unquestionably proven that they are deserving of the same rights as humans by being law-abiding citizens that pay their taxes. The extra restrictions imposed on elves are nonsensical.

To suggest that a minority should have to perform extra services in order to appease the irrational bigotry of the majority is ridiculous, not to mention insulting.

But looking at history, that seems to be the case. Either have to do three times the work or prove that you are stronger.

Goths did everything Romans asked, but still treated like dirt, they sack Rome and they get their own land.

And? I don't support or accept the behaviour of the Romans, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. We are able to look back and realise that just because some things were historically prevalent doesn't mean that they are okay. In fact, they were just as wrong then as they are now.

Not just wrong, but completely inexcusable. Logical thought existed in all periods of our own history, and it exists in Thedas now, so there has never been any justification for bigotry. We as viewers should not be less critical of Thedas just because "it's set in ye olde times".

From a purely narrative perspective, bigotry is needed. It creates verisimilitude and is an important theme of the Dragon Age universe. Pretending that the people of Thedas are somehow immune to bigotry would be lazy writing. But that doesn't make bigotry okay, it just makes Thedas a terrible place.